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Nerevanin

Discussing Jaime and Brienne

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Posted (edited)

@House Cambodia

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Theon had a genuine redemption arc. It would be too sickly and anti-GRRM to give all the leads the same redemption.

That's true. Jaime may come out of it alive, after all. It's no mystery that Jaime/Brienne is GRRM's own version of Beauty & the Beast in GOT and he may grant Jaime his grace in the end.

Saying that it would be anti-GRRM and because he gave us surprises before makes it just as predictable. GRRM is smarter than that.

But, on second thoughts, D&D are not 

 

Edited by Ranger Kragin

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@Ranger Kragin hmmm...that's kind of a tough call. sounds more like a case of stockholm syndrome, to be honest. she was, after all, the only woman he'd been stuck with for quite some time. and the sword fight sequence just sounds like grrm's way with words. better than "thick blonde bush" at least lmao. wtf george? :lol:

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On 5/6/2019 at 11:00 AM, Nerevanin said:

So how do you guys feel about the relationship between Jaime and Brienne after this episode?

I personally predicted long ago that they would fall in love and that they would end up at this point eventually (although I personally expected it to happen earlier) and I always rooted for Brienne+Jaime to actually happen, so I'm happy. I like that and imo it doesn't felt forced or anything. My next prediction is that Jaime will die and Brienne will find out she is pregnant (in fact I predicted Jaime to die and Brienne to have his child a long ago too).

The only thing I'm not happy about is that the progress in their relationship (read as: they had sex) was mostly caused by Tyrion's stupid joke.

I am in support of it, and I knew it was undeniable from Brienne's perspective when questioned by Cersei, she could not answer.

IMHO, Jamie is not a hateful man.  Is is a loyal one, however.   The problem is that he cannot realize his potential because of Cersei.

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Posted (edited)

@the red god Nothing, absolutely nothing is a game of chance in GRRM. If he wrote a fight like a dance which turns Jaime on, is no Stockholn syndrome in that. It's an unwilling attraction and it is the core of the Beauty and the Beast dynamics: neither can love the other but they do. It's a fairytale and one the the tropes GRRM likes best to write.

And withJaime/Brienne he's following the tale by the book.

Edited by Ranger Kragin

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The Jaimie/Brienne situation; They hook up, fine. But then Jamie initially decides to stay at Winterfell because of her, which seems like an odd choice for someone who has so many personal stakes attached to the outcome of the KL showdown. But ok, maybe he's tired of fighting and really wants to prove he's a better person by staying with Brienne. That would be a continuation of sorts in his character arc. Aaaannd then, he changes his mind. He, sort of callously, tells her he's not a good man and his sister is (in one way or another) the most important person in his life. Then he bounces. It was a pretty quick 180 degree turn from a character who has been progressively improving as a sympathetic/trustworthy person over the last several seasons, in no small part to his relationship with Brienne. If they wanted us to shift our perception of Jaime back towards an earlier version of him that would've been fine and keeping with the theme of living in the grey area between tropes of right and wrong. But to do it so late in the game doesn't seem worth it and makes me feel like if Jaime dies without doing something amazing a great character will go out on a sour note.

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Posted (edited)

I am pretty sure Jaime is going to kill Cersei. Or maybe, there is no precise plan to kill her, just a feeling of immense anger and an impulse to do whatever it takes to save the Kings landing from being burned due to irresponsibility of Cersei. And, in case of no fire, to prevent Cersei and Euron, the unworthy rulers to take the throne. He must be thinking, "Why the hell did I kill Aerys, only to be responsible for actions of my sister by supporting her in fighting Highgarden etc ? My life story makes no sense. I hate my sister" And he did not want Brienne to follow him and put herself in the harms way. I continue in the next post.

Edited by beauty6
Typo

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Posted (edited)

Continued: so this way, the Jaimes action make sense to me. However, I hate the script. I thing Jaime or D&D should not have humiliated Brienne this way. Research shows - I know it is absurd to insert research thoughts into this mess of bad writing, but anyway - that mourning the dead partner is less intense than mourning the partner that has betrayed and left you. He could have explained things to Brienne. She, of all people, should understand, when somebody is driven to do things due to honor or perceived obligation. He also could have persuaded her to stay where she is and not to follow him, because she still believes protecting Stark girls is her job. However, D&D wanted Jaime to surprise us, so they made his departure intentionally ambiguous and thus humiliating for Brienne.

Edited by beauty6
Typo, added sentence

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As a proof he hates leaving Brienne, you can watch the "Stay with me" scene. At one point, she is crying, and he closes his eyes to conceal he is crying as well.

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41 minutes ago, beauty6 said:

As a proof he hates leaving Brienne, you can watch the "Stay with me" scene. At one point, she is crying, and he closes his eyes to conceal he is crying as well.

Of course he hates leaving Brienne. That why he says he's 'hateful' - he hates himself for what he's doing.

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1 hour ago, beauty6 said:

I am pretty sure Jaime is going to kill Cersei. Or maybe, there is no precise plan to kill her, just a feeling of immense anger and an impulse to do whatever it takes to save the Kings landing from being burned due to irresponsibility of Cersei. And, in case of no fire, to prevent Cersei and Euron, the unworthy rulers to take the throne. He must be thinking, "Why the hell did I kill Aerys, only to be responsible for actions of my sister by supporting her in fighting Highgarden etc ? My life story makes no sense. I hate my sister" And he did not want Brienne to follow him and put herself in the harms way. I continue in the next post.

I get the idea that Jaime sees Cersei as the source of his own evil thoughts and actions, It seems logical to conclude that killing her would set him free to be a better person. But as it stands she is pregnant. There can be no way Jaime intends to go to kill Cersei an doing doing so accept that he kills an innocent child. So this simply can't be his intention.

Therefore the best conclusion is that he has given into the dark side, he has tried the light and got close to becoming a good person but in the end has accepted he will never be free of the dark. I think he has accepted this and has decided to save Cersei. Not so much love but need. 

Of course this is what I think based on the current scenes. The D&D writing is so disrespectful of character consistency that it could all mean something else in Episode 5 because they changed their minds and just decided that was fine because they see no need to justify any character's actions within the context of that character's previous personality or behavior.

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I agree that the unborn baby complicates things. That way I think the intention to kill Cersei is not clear, but there is an intention to stop her somehow. And yes, the writing is very inconsistent regarding characters and there are alsi many gaps. That is why I expect a "surprise", something like Sansa and Arya seemed to be in conflict, but we suddenly find out they conspired together to get rid of Littlefinger.

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I think there is a lot of misleading going on regarding that romance.
We assume that Jaime took Brienne's virginity, when we truly only saw him lying next to her in bed. We assume he is the guy who gets you pregnant and goes off to fight for a lost cause. Because that's what he did in the past, didn't he? So no progress in character? I would think not. I'm coming back to that.

We also assume we know Brienne. When she was knighted many cheered along and thought that this is all she ever wanted, when it was truly Podrick's wish. When she had Jaime in her room many thought no this is all she ever wanted... Becoming pregnant in the middle of two wars. As Sansa's bodyguard. Really?
I think what Jaime and Brienne did was exactly what Jaime said it would be: sleeping. Hence the disatisfied glances at her naked, resting form. He knows what they miss, she as a maiden doesn't know it yet.

Brienne had to drink two times. The first time to answer the question regarding her state, which wasn't sure at all (1. she saved Sansa, who got raped in her own home so something could have happened to Brienne as well, 2. she dared to dance with her  future homosexual king, so she is able to go for her desires, 3. she is surrounded by an admire in her work space and may combine interests), then she had to drink after the realisation of their mutal interest as if to confirm the state nonetheless.
This is another pre-battle couple and a very grown-up couple at that, looking for consens. Jaime made clear he would not stay in the North. Brienne gave away a physical knowledge that also describes her emotional skills: Evertime she leaves a room she puts more wood in the fire to keep it burning. It's warm enough, but there is still a battle to win.

So both knew they would part again. Only the cause was unclear. Brienne wanted to keep Jaime out of a war against his former lover. Sansa said as much when she said her generals (there is only one) would give her a sign when they are ready to march. Jaime wants to regain some power of his own to make a difference in a war Brienne's chef prefers to sit out the same way his sister did. It hurts him that Bronn is up to inherit the legacy of his former victories. So Jaime would collect his troops and set a honey trap for both Brienne and Sansa. The new Prince of Dorne is just too new to not take notice of him. So no, the Golden Lion days are not gone, Cersei just won't have a part in them.

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56 minutes ago, Pauld123 said:

But as it stands she is pregnant. There can be no way Jaime intends to go to kill Cersei an doing doing so accept that he kills an innocent child. So this simply can't be his intention.

Well, if he believes the baby is Euron's, he might!

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If there is one thing we DO know about Brienne, both bookBrienne and ShowBrienne is that she's as stubborn as a mule. Just rememebr what Jaime said back in Season 6 when she tried to recrute the Blackfish for the Battle of the bastards: 

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Jaime: Have you ever met the Blackfish?

Brienne: No

Jaime: He's even more stubborn than you are (S6Ep08)

 

Again Jaime:

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Brienne's ugly, and pighead stubborn. But she lacks the wits to be a liar, and she is loyal past the point of sense. (ASOS, Jaime VIII)

Even Catelyn says something about her stubbornness. Jaime knows there's not way to convince her to stay in Winterfell if she knew his plans.

...And of course it created tension like this. Make people qustioning again Jaime's true allegiance, forgetting everything that Jaime has become and gone through. He's another man, he said that to Bran, and Bran seems to acknowledge he has one more mission to accomplish, beyond the WW.

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Posted (edited)

I was actually rooting for Thormund+Brienne :( They would have made such a funny pair. If the writers can still write anything humorous that is. Both him and Sandor were just so bland this season.

Edited by DirePenguin

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15 minutes ago, Haus Berlin said:

Hence the disatisfied glances at her naked, resting form.

Who told you he was dissatisfied? He looked contemplative to me.

And, when confirming he's staying in Winterfell with Brienne who swore to protect Sansa, Tyrion said :"I'm happy that you're happy", so, he must have said Tyrion that he was happy, or the sentence doesn't make sense.

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38 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Well, if he believes the baby is Euron's, he might!

But the pregnancy was announced in Season 7 and that is before Euron got frisky. Also that isn't really relevant. The baby is innocent no matter who the evil parents are. If Jaime's character arc is consistent then he would be loath to harm an innocent baby. This is the journey he has taken since pushing a child of a tower. His character arc would be invalidated if he now killed a baby.

Of course D&D care not a fig for consistency with character arcs, if the scene seems dramatic enough for them then they will just do it anyway even if it doesn't fit the character at all.

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15 minutes ago, Pauld123 said:

Of course D&D care not a fig for consistency with character arcs, if the scene seems dramatic enough for them then they will just do it anyway even if it doesn't fit the character at all.

I think D&D are preparing this scene since we know about the pregnancy. It is important and Jaime reminds us in S8Ep2 "She's always been good at using the truth to tell lies", remember? 

Somehow I believe this part is important. She may have lost the child and still pretend to be pregnant for her own agenda, or use the child as shield or something we've yet to see.

I have no idea how they're going to show Jaime killing her and the baby. Perhaps they'll make it look like self-defence.

 

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It may be a case of they die together rather than murder or murder/suicide. After all, If Dany's going to be swooping over KL strafing all and sundry with dragonfire, there's bound to be collateral damage. I can even see Cleganbowl ending prematurely in such a fashion.

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Is there anyone here believing that Jaime is going to survive the last war?

Somehow everything has become so predictable, so easy.

Cersei and Jaime dying, Cleganebowl, Dany dying, Jon going back to the [breached] wall, Sansa Queen in the North, Arya becoming No One.. what would be the greatest twist at this point? 

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