Why Dany didn't ask for other houses support?

[Hodor's Dragon]

50% casualties is actually incredibly heavy for a single battle, no matter how one-sided. The only time you would ever conceivably have heavier casualties than that is if the defeated army doesn't have anywhere to run to and there is either a surrender or a long, drawn-out execution process. People were talking about this last week and I saw several people say that we "saw" the armies obliterated, which is nonsense. The cameras were only in a handful of places and we saw maybe 1000 get killed on camera. We saw the defense force get shattered and run for the hills, but that's a far different story from seeing it actually get destroyed. Heck, there was a scene of the unsullied covering everybody's escape where the camera was on escapees for several minutes: the "Dunkirk" of the NK battle.

People seem to think for some reason they saw all the Dothraki get killed but what they saw was a bunch of flames going out that was most likely just a result of the magical cold and fog that accompanies the NK's army. I saw it was probably just cold and fog because, in point of fact a huge mass of cavalry could not be physically exterminated in the amount of time it took for those lights to turn out - and how, by infantry? You would expect most of the cavalry to escape once the army broke, which would've been nearly instantly once they made contact.

As for why there was no call to other houses, it's all part of the nonsensical set-up where they make it as if Daenerys' only choice is to hit King's Landing immediately, when in point of face the idea would be to start rallying the houses, cut off Cersei's breadbasket and just win by attrition. Yet nobody even suggested such a thing: the only choice seemed to be to hit KL now or to hit KL in a few days after resting. In military strategy terms, that's really kind of the same choice twice: the actual alternative is to not hit KL at all now but instead put the pressure on Cersei to come out of there and make something happen before the whole realm falls into Dany's camp, which in point of fact is certain to happen: nobody in the 7 Kingdoms would be stupid enough to ally with Cersei after what happened to the Tyrells.

[LearnToBeNoOne]

4 hours ago, Wik said:

You already noticed the "We lost 50% casualties" bull shit, right???

We see both Dothraki and Unsullied DECIMATED and some of us predicted they would pull this "Oh we only lost half" and sure as shit, they LITERALLY discuss everything and say we lost half.....UNREAL. And ya, magical Dornish Prince who no one knows and no foreshadowing and no name in the show suddenly appears and supports Dany.....

Its soooooo so bad...

All the Dothraki were literally on the front line and charged forward, straight after the WW's came.

The whole Unsullied held their line to try and block the WW's but were faced with never ending waves of a tireless enemy.

Yet 50% of both armies survived? It's nonsensical.

Not only were the WW's in abundance outside but also inside the Castle, the number of casualties in the episode were more than generous because hardly anybody should have survived that.

It's like the writers think of something and if they both agree on it they include it whether it makes sense or not.

Benioff: We need more allies.

Weiss: OK, why not just bring Dorne back into the equation and say they've got a new prince?

Some foreshadowing or a bit of a story would have helped to make sense of it all. It's like KL is waiting on an invasion and the North have just finished a war against the WW but everywhere else in Westeros is business as usual, just no.

[dannyk65]

My biggest hangup about the 50% thing:

- The Dothraki and Unsullied could've sent half their ranks to go hide in the bushes until after the battle ended

- There would've been a Winterfell full of Dothraki and Unsullied the next couple days

- How the fuck did Bronn just waltz up to the private chamber of the Queen's Hand toting a giant crossbow???

[Ser Loras The Gay]

6 hours ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

People seem to think for some reason they saw all the Dothraki get killed but what they saw was a bunch of flames going out that was most likely just a result of the magical cold and fog that accompanies the NK's army. I saw it was probably just cold and fog because, in point of fact a huge mass of cavalry could not be physically exterminated in the amount of time it took for those lights to turn out - and how, by infantry? You would expect most of the cavalry to escape once the army broke, which would've been nearly instantly once they made contact.

We only see Jorah and a few very FEW dothraki coming back. We see grey worm closing the passage with the insullied still in front of the trenches. It's inconceivable that Dany lost only 50%. The North army could've lost 50% summing all the northern houses without counting Dany's force. But half of the dothraki? Bs. Half the insullied? Bs.

[Tywin Tytosson]

On 5/6/2019 at 8:28 PM, LearnToBeNoOne said:

I just find it extremely random, they just threw it in there - didn’t even bother to mention the name of the prince.  

 

Spoiler

We may get to see this Prince.    An actor for Season 8 that we haven't seen yet has a 'royal role'.  He may be this Prince of Dorne.  If so, then we will find out his name when he appears.

 

[Tywin Tytosson]

On 5/6/2019 at 1:22 PM, Ser Loras The Gay said:

I mean, before the trip to Winterfell Dany asked for support from othres houses such as: Stark, Tyrell, Martell, Half of the Greyjoys. But now we don't have any indication of who is supporting dany besides the north army and Dorne (they throw a line on the strategy meeting saying a new dorne prince is supporting dany, wtf). Why she didn't ask for support for the new riverrun lord, the Vale lord (who still is Rob Arryn). And the from the other regions like the Reach and the eastern regions? Her plan was to invade King's landing with only the leftovers from her former army? That's pretty stupid considering they KNOW the golden company is at King's landing.

The Vale is pretty firmly allied to the North.  In particular, Sansa.  The Knights of the Vale fought the dead at Winterfell in episode 3.  The Vale and the North both appear to remember their fight against the Mad King.

The Riverlands, as far as we know, are a mess.   A new Riverrun lord would have been appointed by Cersei.  But since she offerred Riverrun to Bronn, we'd have to assume that Riverrun has no lord. 

[Ser Loras The Gay]

8 minutes ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

The Vale is pretty firmly allied to the North.  In particular, Sansa.  The Knights of the Vale fought the dead at Winterfell in episode 3.  The Vale and the North both appear to remember their fight against the Mad King.

The Riverlands, as far as we know, are a mess.   A new Riverrun lord would have been appointed by Cersei.  But since she offerred Riverrun to Bronn, we'd have to assume that Riverrun has no lord. 

Yeah, but they're not allied with Dany per se. They pledge alliance for Sansa, not even Jon, Sansa. So if Sansa simply say "don't help her" they won't. The riverlands are a mess but we still have a lot of freys, Edmure tully somewhere and the brotherhood without banners (which the show simply made a joke of).

All in all the only place she could really ask for help would be the stormlands that'd be pissed with Cersei killing all baratheons, basically. Westerlands with the smalller houses that should be wanting to take more power from the lannisters and the Reach that even the show trying to imply all died after the Tyrells were defeated we know for sure have more people that are willing to fight for her still.

[LearnToBeNoOne]

11 minutes ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

We may get to see this Prince.    An actor for Season 8 that we haven't seen yet has a 'royal role'.  He may be this Prince of Dorne.  If so, then we will find out his name when he appears.

 

Spoiler

Well if that is the case then we can assume there's no time to really introduce his character, how he became the prince of Dorne or anything about his character and desires in general. If he is involved it will be to arrive with an army. 

 

[Tywin Tytosson]

2 hours ago, dannyk65 said:

My biggest hangup about the 50% thing:

- The Dothraki and Unsullied could've sent half their ranks to go hide in the bushes until after the battle ended

- There would've been a Winterfell full of Dothraki and Unsullied the next couple days

- How the fuck did Bronn just waltz up to the private chamber of the Queen's Hand toting a giant crossbow???

Tyrion and Jamie were at an inn outside of Winterfell.  It wasn't a private chamber.  You can see Winterfell in the background in the outside shot of that inn.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

32 minutes ago, LearnToBeNoOne said:

Well if that is the case then we can assume there's no time to really introduce his character, how he became the prince of Dorne or anything about his character and desires in general. If he is involved it will be to arrive with an army. 

"hi dany I know you don't know me and I know you didn't send me a message or something, but I'm here to help, even though I don't really have a reason to or am going to get anything from it. I'm sending my troops to die for a cause that isn't ours and, wait why am I doing this again?"

[Hodor's Dragon]

3 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

We only see Jorah and a few very FEW dothraki coming back. We see grey worm closing the passage with the insullied still in front of the trenches. It's inconceivable that Dany lost only 50%. The North army could've lost 50% summing all the northern houses without counting Dany's force. But half of the dothraki? Bs. Half the insullied? Bs.

Find me a single historical battle where an army that wasn't captured lost over 50%. It has virtually never happened. People get away. Gettysburg, the bloodiest battle in U.S. history, lasted 3 days and the total casualty rate was about 25%.

[Rose of Red Lake]

She's racing to beat Sansa/Jon to the Iron Throne.

Dany knows Sansa would put Jon on it.

She wants to get there as fast as possible to eliminate Jon/Sansa as a threat. Her line about her enemies growing stronger the longer she waits includes Cersei and SANSA.

[Hodor's Dragon]

4 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

We only see Jorah and a few very FEW dothraki coming back. We see grey worm closing the passage with the insullied still in front of the trenches. It's inconceivable that Dany lost only 50%. The North army could've lost 50% summing all the northern houses without counting Dany's force. But half of the dothraki? Bs. Half the insullied? Bs.

Find me ONE historical battle where a large army that didn't surrender lost over 50%.

YOU CAN'T. IT HAS NEVER HAPPENED. Large numbers always get away, even in the most one-sided large battles.

So what if you didn't see half the Dothraki escape. We were watching cameras in pretty much one position. Guys on horseback would run for the hills in every which direction, and back toward Winterfell would not be a favored direction because they knew that's where the dead were going. Historically, runners tend to return to the army over time, although not all immediately by any means.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

43 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Find me a single historical battle where an army that wasn't captured lost over 50%. It has virtually never happened. People get away. Gettysburg, the bloodiest battle in U.S. history, lasted 3 days and the total casualty rate was about 25%.

We're not in an historical setting. If we WERE then we should criticize even more the strategy used to fight the army of the dead. Battle of the bastards destroyed most of the Bolton forces and the north army at a certain extent, by the VISUALS of the show the north should have almost no men in age to battle. 

 

By what was showned to us we have to assume all dothraki are dead because that was what was showned to us. If D&D are going to pull this BS of only half of the army is dead they should've been more careful on the visuals.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

11 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

So what if you didn't see half the Dothraki escape. We were watching cameras in pretty much one position. Guys on horseback would run for the hills in every which direction, and back toward Winterfell would not be a favored direction because they knew that's where the dead were going. Historically, runners tend to return to the army over time, although not all immediately by any means.

Yeah I didn't see Rhaegal reviving after he was shot 3 times, so I have to accept if they revive him next episode? I din't see Jorah being revived by Melisandre off screen should I accept him getting back on the show next episode? I didn't see the children of the forest collecting the NK pieces and remaking him should I accept his return next episode? You see how easy is to invert the burden of proof to prove my point?

[Hodor's Dragon]

14 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

We're not in an historical setting. If we WERE then we should criticize even more the strategy used to fight the army of the dead. Battle of the bastards destroyed most of the Bolton forces and the north army at a certain extent, by the VISUALS of the show the north should have almost no men in age to battle. 

 

By what was showned to us we have to assume all dothraki are dead because that was what was showned to us. If D&D are going to pull this BS of only half of the army is dead they should've been more careful on the visuals.

Then what IS your reason for assuming the army was wiped out? It damned sure wasn't shown being wiped out on screen. Nobody ever said it was wiped out. Please. One factual basis for thinking the army was wiped out. Just one. Something we actually saw, or AT LEAST something that somebody actually said.

Remember when Sam hid behind a rock and the whole NK army streamed by him without noticing? I don't think it would be all that difficult to escape and live to fight another day once the army has broken.

EDIT: The Dothraki being wiped out was NOT shown to us. We saw a bunch of torches go out. They were probably put out by the magical cold, frost and fog that is known to accompany his army. The lights went out in less than a minute. That makes perfect sense if it was magical cold that put them out, but ZERO SENSE AT ALL if we are supposed to imagine 100,000 horsemen being slaughtered by infantry.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

7 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Then what IS your reason for assuming the army was wiped out? It damned sure wasn't shown being wiped out on screen. Nobody ever said it was wiped out. Please. One factual basis for thinking the army was wiped out. Just one. Something we actually saw, or AT LEAST something that somebody actually said.

Dude did we watched the same episode? Are you kidding me? We only see JORAH returning and the last episode (number 4) we don't see any dothraki walking like we did in episodes 1 and 2. The insullied get TRAPPED between the trench and the army of the dead they dont RETREAT because they were HOLDING THE RETREAT, if the horde really did survived then the only place they could've used to run was going even further into the army of the dead because they don't go back, we only see Jorah and a small group of dothraki making back. You have to be delusional to think they managed to go around the army of the dead. If you see the battle again you can notice that the only way to go back is going towards winterfell and we see NONE of them coming back other than Jorah.

 

12 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Remember when Sam hid behind a rock and the whole NK army streamed by him without noticing? I don't think it would be all that difficult to escape and live to fight another day once the army has broken.

So? One person isn't equal a whole army with horses, what the fuck is this comparassion?

[Hodor's Dragon]

55 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

Dude did we watched the same episode? Are you kidding me? We only see JORAH returning and the last episode (number 4) we don't see any dothraki walking like we did in episodes 1 and 2. What?  The insullied get TRAPPED between the trench and the army of the dead

you're making crap up - we have no idea what was out there in the blackness in front of the trench, it was never shown

they dont RETREAT because they were HOLDING THE RETREAT,

What does "holding the retreat" even mean? You wouldn't be making stuff up again, would you?

if the horde really did survived then the only place they could've used to run was going even further into the army of the dead because they don't go back,

There are 360 degrees in a circle

we only see Jorah and a small group of dothraki making back. You have to be delusional to think they managed to go around the army of the dead.

Who said anything about go around? They ran away, in all different directions, like armies always do

If you see the battle again you can notice that the only way to go back is going towards winterfell and we see NONE of them coming back other than Jorah.

You know, last week when people started spouting this nonsense about "all wiped out" I went back and specifically re-watched the episode for evidence everybody was wiped out. There is none. 

There is certainly no evidence that "the only way to go back" is "towards winterfell." It was wide open spaces out there, they could go anywhere.

So? One person isn't equal a whole army with horses, what the fuck is this comparassion?

I would think it's pretty obvious. It's an actual FACT, a data point, showing the army of the dead is crap about locating and wiping out survivors. They walked RIGHT BY HIM.

 

[Ser Loras The Gay]

2 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

I asked for facts. Not sure if what you ga

Okay dude continue to accept what the showrunners write with face value. Remeber, dany simply "kinda forgot about Euron". 

[Hodor's Dragon]

3 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

Okay dude continue to accept what the showrunners write with face value. Remeber, dany simply "kinda forgot about Euron". 

Not sure what you're talking about, but I pay little attention to what the showrunners say. I'm not basing my opinion on anything other than what I saw in the episode last week and my knowledge of military history.

For example, here's me posting last week that probably 50% or more survived:

I also wrote this last week:

 

Quote

 

We know at least 22 people, 2 living dragons and one direwolf by name who were there:

4 Starks

2 Lannisters

Daenerys, Jorah, Varys, Missandei, Grey Worm

Gendry, Davos, Brienne, Gilly, Melisandre, Theon

Tormund, Edd, Sam, Berric, Lyanna M.

3 critters

I may be missing others.

Out of those 25 or more folks & critters, FIVE died in the battle, including 1 by a pointless suicide charge at the end, perhaps the last person to die. 1 more suicided for unknown reasons after the battle was over. What's the evidence that the overall force took a way higher casualty rate?

 

What's your answer to my last question? If 80% of those we we can specifically identify survived, why do we assume that 90% of the nameless who we didn't watch in the battle died? Especially when history tells us that the kind of casualty rates you are floating just don't happen to armies, ever.