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Petitephlox

Great analysis on why this feels like such a betrayal of Dany’s character

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42 minutes ago, Petitephlox said:

I thought this article was right on! 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/06/opinions/daenerys-targaryen-leads-jon-snow-credit-opinion-mantoan/index.html

Is it possible that the show will surprise us yet again and NOT go the “oh she’s horrible and ambitious mad queen” route?

I truly hope they don't take her there. It would make me very sad and make her whole journey and all her growth such a waste.

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Breaker of the Wheels!

I truly hope it happens.

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Yes! Let her break the wheel somehow - let her whole story be something more than just “oh haha, sorry, even though she did all these meaningful things and sacrificed so much, she’s just a POWER HUNGRY WOMAN”. 

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Interesting article, and I agree with most of it.

As I posted in a different topic: Imagine Jon's reaction to watching most of his army die, Tormund die, Sam getting executed in front of him, and lastly the closest thing he has to children: Sansa and Arya die.

That's the situation Daenerys is currently in, but you can swap Tormund/Sam for Jorah/Missandei, and Sansa/Arya for Viserion/Rhaegal.
Jon lost his shit and did a kamikaze-charge after "just" watching Rickon die. Imagine his reactions if the above was to happen.
Daenerys reaction (so far) is one of great frustration and anger, fury even - but not madness. 

 

If Daenerys ultimate fate in this show is to go insane and die for no apparent reason, there really was no point in her entire story or character arc. You could've been able to cut out everything regarding her from the story, and nothing would change, other than the NK still being alive but stuck north of the wall. It would've been extremely anti-climactic, depressing, and makes no sense from a narrative point of view. 


 

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Interesting article!

the problem with Dany is not her intent, but her execution (ha)  

She’s spent her whole recent life surrounded by yes-men who have varying reasons for telling her what she wants to hear, and it does her no favors. 

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I've been warring with this a lot because I have read a few essays in regard to her arc going this way in the books as well, which makes it ever more depressing.

My gut reaction is NO. I have not watched her fight and scrap and survive this long to become a mad queen and the end game villain.  Utter bullshit.

But, I go back to three quotes that I have heard, one by GRRM, that give me pause. 
1) The only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself. 
2) the battle of good versus evil is fought in the human heart.
3) a villain doesn't think they are a villain.

Daenerys has a good heart and the will to do good.  That much is not disputable, in my opinion.  However, she has shown, on multiple occasions, a knee jerk reaction toward some....less appealing tendencies in the face of injustice.  Some instances that come to mind: the crucifying of the slave masters, her burning a variety of Meereenese nobleman in the scene that she agrees to marry Hizdahr, the burning of the Dothraki, the burning of the Tarlys, etc. This is not to say that some form of strength or justice was not required in these situations, but the way she dispensed justice could have a cruel streak. 

I said years ago - circa 2014-2015 - that I thought the Iron Throne was a Macguffin for Daenerys and she would return to Slaver's Bay.  I don't know if she will return to SB at this point, but I still think that it is a Macguffin.  I expect her to burn King's Landing, but feel a regret at the loss of life that she takes herself out of the picture.  I wish the writers brought home her desires from the book and from season one - the want of going home, the red door, etc. She actually does say that in the pilot episode - I want to go home. 

The best ending to her story, IMO, would be for her to go off on Drogon in search of the pyre she burned Drogo, MMD and Rhaego on to collect their bones/ashes. 

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13 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Interesting article!

the problem with Dany is not her intent, but her execution (ha)  

She’s spent her whole recent life surrounded by yes-men who have varying reasons for telling her what she wants to hear, and it does her no favors. 

Yes, I agree with this.  The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I wish Jorah (RIP) had the chance to see her do some of these things so he could have said to her "Hey, you are kinda acting like Viserys."

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1 minute ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Yes, I agree with this.  The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I wish Jorah (RIP) had the chance to see her do some of these things so he could have said to her "Hey, you are kinda acting like Viserys."

He wouldn’t, though. Not really. He might imply it, or even say it outright in a moment of insanity, but she wouldn’t care and he’d apologize for even suggesting it to her, and then she’d do whatever she wanted anyway and he’d kiss her feet for letting him watch her do it. 

She doesn’t have a single advisor willing to give her the hard truth and stick to it. Even Tyrion grovels. 

At least Jorah has the excuse of being in love with her to pardon him a little. 

Robert was an objectively godawful king, but he didn’t seem to get off on being coddled and worshipped nearly as much as Dany does. 

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Just now, Nictarion said:

And Sansa fed someone to dogs in S6. Is she “mad” too? 

Daenerys even had a reasonable motive behind it, trying to quell the rebellion that was taking a toll on the city and it's people.

Sansa acted out of pure vengeance. 

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Dany can do terrible things without being mad.  How would any medieval monarch react if they called on their enemy to surrender - in return for being spared - and that enemy promptly executed their best friend in front of them.  As well as natural grief for your friend, you'd feel your enemy was just spitting in your face.  And, your soldiers would feel it to.  Edward I, Edward III, Henry V, would have taken dreadful vengeance for such an act, and none of them was mad.

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8 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Daenerys even had a reasonable motive behind it, trying to quell the rebellion that was taking a toll on the city and it's people.

Sansa acted out of pure vengeance. 

Daenerys had a big problem, there is no doubt about it. But is burning people really the way to win the support of the people?

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1 minute ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Daenerys had a big problem, there is no doubt about it. But is burning people really the way to win the support of the people?

If this is re. Mereen, she wasn't doing it to win the support of the people. She was doing to to scare the noblemen into stop supporting the sons of the harpy. 

She also realized that it was a mistake to kill random noblemen in this manner when she decided to marry Hizdahr instead.
(Which ultimately didn't solve anything. She should've just continued torching people.)

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The article wasn’t really about Daenerys, it was about sexism in television. Daenerys was just the vassal, an excuse to convey the general message. 

 

As for where the show is taking here, there’s no way of knowing or guessing, as the show follows to logic, consistency or common sense whatsoever. There’s no cause and effect or act and consequence. 

They might make her mad because that’s what they want, or it might be a red herring and they might not do it because that’s what they want. 

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We can debate all day about the good or bad in each character and who deserves to rule based on their past experiences.    It is really down to who best uses strategy, cunning, and a bit of  luck to handle the current situation and win the game.  

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3 hours ago, Petitephlox said:

<snip>

Is it possible that the show will surprise us yet again and NOT go the “oh she’s horrible and ambitious mad queen” route?

I'm very much hoping that a lot of what happened in epi. 4 was just there to build suspense before we get the happy ending that appeared to be about to happen prior to the episode.

Daenerys, who has never slaughtered innocents for no reason, will ultimately not turn her whole plot arc on its head by fire bombing the masses; John and Dany will come to one of the several imminently sensible resolutions of their predicament that doesn't involve war or mass death; Sansa will remember what ultimately happened to her mentor Littlefinger for his agent provocateur antics and decide to leave well enough alone.

Not sure what will happen to Euron with his nonsensical, impossible super-weapon, but I'm guessing Yara will sneak up on him and destroy his fleet somehow and it won't matter that it doesn't make sense because we have already established that naval battles don't have to make sense. The valonqar will kill the real mad queen, probably dying at her hand as well, and somebody's bottom will warm the Iron Throne. 

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3 hours ago, Petitephlox said:

 

Is it possible that the show will surprise us yet again and NOT go the “oh she’s horrible and ambitious mad queen” route?

You know what would have surprised me? Using tactics in The Long Night episode.

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