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Great analysis on why this feels like such a betrayal of Dany’s character

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12 minutes ago, LearnToBeNoOne said:

This is a great point, in the season 6 finale Vary's responds: ''Fire and Blood''to Olenna asking ''And what is my heart's desire?''

Which is laughable because he knows what he signed up for, what this campaign is about and what it will take. It's lazy and terrible writing, let's make Vary's suddenly plot behind her back because he predict's that Dany is following in the footsteps of the Mad King whilst ignoring the good she has actually done. He knew it would take ''Fire and Blood'' to take KL yet is suddenly on this moral high as if he's had some kind of epiphany.

Yeah, well, he could also advise that they can hire a FM to go through the secret tunnels and kill Cersei.  Oh, what's that you say, there is alreaedy a FM in Winterfell who will do the kill for free?  Hmm.  But, no, doesn't think of that, no one does.  Because: plot.

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1 hour ago, MinscS2 said:

As for reference, I'm aware that Daenerys has always had a "will-she-won't-she(become like her father)" vibe about her. 
 

However, from a narrative perceptive, Season 7 pushed the "won't" angle very hard, to the point where it was all but clear by the end of the season that she is not her father. When push comes to shove, she will do the right thing, even to her own detriment. 

Then S8 rolls up. Suddenly this angle is gone over night, and she suddenly does a turn into "will"-territory that is so sharp that I almost cut myself on it, and the show gives no real reason for this massive 180 turn in character. 

From a narrative- and story-arc perspective it makes no sense.
You can almost see how the writers had a checklist and one bullet point was "Daenerys finally goes mad in S8 due to reason X".
It comes across as forced, contrived and as lazy writing and is essentially an assassination of her entire character-arc. 

I really really hope that there's some twist in the next episode, but I've honestly lost all faith in D&D by this point. 
Daenerys entire arc is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to inconsistencies and bad writing. 

I got a feeling the big twist will be Cersei isn't the last big bad, Dany is. Hope I'm wrong but we are talking about D&D here.

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Just now, LearnToBeNoOne said:

This. It just doesn't make sense.

I agree but she didn't become this person overnight, the foreshadowing has been there if you wish to call it that. The timing of it all doesn't make sense, especially as they were campaigning with and for her.

As I just discussed in a previous post Vary's was part of the 'Fire and Blood' campaign in the Season 6 finale and understood what it would require. Yet now he's on some moral high, lazy.

She plans to war Cersei yet everybody's acting like this is suddenly such a terrible idea and that she should wait. Even though taking the Iron Throne has always been her plan, she has also clearly said: "I will take what is mine with fire and blood,'' and Varys knew this and supported her, that's why he's been with her. So this sudden change of mind is pathetic.

Exactly there's nothing to be angry about as of yet she's just sacrificed her army during 'The Long Night.' As a reward not only Sansa but Varys too are plotting on how to remove her from power.

Hell, if they wanted her advisors to turn against her then they could have danny destroying euron's fleet and capturing a lot of iron born.

Then they could have her just order drogon to burn them all alive out of vengence for killing rhaegal.

This would be believable and give a reason for varys and tyrion to turn against her. Even give an example that danny now is willing to comit atrocities in order to defeat her enemies and that tyrion and varys aren t really ok with it.

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The OPs article is a little too entwined with US politics, Dany is not Hillary Clinton.

However, if she is going down the road to madness where she dies, the show has done a terrible disservice to her character.  She has always had issues with snap judgments and some of her more harsh decisions have not always been applauded by everyone.  But the show has always applauded these decisions, couching them as badass moments.  So, turning the same tendencies she has always had, now into negatives, and doing so within the span of 2 episodes is really poor storytelling. A story of Dany finally succumbing to the cumulative losses and pressures and to Westeros not being what she imagined could have been a good and tragic story.  What the show is doing at the speed of light isn't that story.

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Just now, Cas Stark said:

Yeah, well, he could also advise that they can hire a FM to go through the secret tunnels and kill Cersei.  Oh, what's that you say, there is alreaedy a FM in Winterfell who will do the kill for free?  Hmm.  But, no, doesn't think of that, no one does.  Because: plot.

Look davos can smugle people inside KL! Varys knows the secret passages of the red keep. They could simply infiltrate enough people there over time to take the city from inside… Or somply a team disguised of lannister men to kill cersei.

 

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1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

But the show has always applauded these decisions, couching them as badass moments. 

No, I argued since three seasons for Dany being on the verge of madness, The show depicted this quite nicely. Daenerys is dangerous and not badass.

2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

So, turning the same tendencies she has always had, now into negatives, and doing so within the span of 2 episodes is really poor storytelling.

They are not. The issues are just getting more important and pivotal.

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Just now, Kajjo said:

No, I argued since three seasons for Dany being on the verge of madness, The show depicted this quite nicely. Daenerys is dangerous and not badass.

They are not. The issues are just getting more important and pivotal.

Not true. What she did to the dothriaki was completly awful and the show made it into a super bad ass moment. 

She burned all the leadership of a race of people because "she is a better leader" and nobody cared? Then she completly changed their culture to fit her values and nobody cared?

Her burning the tarlys for treason is very mild compared to what she has done in essos where the show made her into a beloved hero...

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1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

What exactly makes her a hero in your eyes?

Heroism requires more than supporting other's in a war or riding a dragon. Daenerys did nothing heroic so far.

ENDING SLAVERY 

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3 minutes ago, divica said:

What she did to the dothriaki was completly awful and the show made it into a super bad ass moment. 

Herself burning the khals in the dosh dothraki? Yes, that was made badass, but the situation was very believable and in-character. I liked that a lot. They wanted to hurt her and she defended herself. 

4 minutes ago, divica said:

because "she is a better leader"

No, but because they wanted to abuse her, keep her prisoner and torture her.

5 minutes ago, divica said:

Her burning the tarlys for treason is very mild compared to what she has done in essos where the show made her into a beloved hero...

Motivation and situation are entirely different. Entirely.

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1 minute ago, Nictarion said:

ENDING SLAVERY 

She wanted to, but she didn't really succeed. She let others do her job anyway. She just ruled. She didn' t do it. 

I have another definition of hero, then.

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4 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

She wanted to, but she didn't really succeed. She let others do her job anyway. She just ruled. She didn' t do it.

She definitely did it.

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Just now, martianmister said:

She definitely did it.

And she saved the worthless, treacherous north.

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Just now, Kajjo said:

Herself burning the khals in the dosh dothraki? Yes, that was made badass, but the situation was very believable and in-character. I liked that a lot. They wanted to hurt her and she defended herself. 

No, but because they wanted to abuse her, keep her prisoner and torture her.

Motivation and situation are entirely different. Entirely.

Danny literally says they don t deseve to be kahls, that they suck and that she would be a much better leader. They only want to hurt her after she says this!

Before they were simply doing to her what they always do to kahls widows. It is their culture! 

And yes, she has the right to not want to follow their culture. But killing all the kahls and bending all dothriaki to her will as if they dont like their culture and wouldn t fight to live like they have always lived made no sense! She wasn t liberating the dothriaki from themselves! They liked their way of live!

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, divica said:

Danny literally says they don t deseve to be kahls, that they suck and that she would be a much better leader. They only want to hurt her after she says this!

Before they were simply doing to her what they always do to kahls widows. It is their culture! 

And yes, she has the right to not want to follow their culture. But killing all the kahls and bending all dothriaki to her will as if they dont like their culture and wouldn t fight to live like they have always lived made no sense! She wasn t liberating the dothriaki from themselves! They liked their way of live!

Simply? Dany wouldn't have made it out of there alive since she would spend the rest of her life in that temple. She had to break free. And what she did was quite clever. She cleaned after herself with the help of the other women in the temple and didn't expect anybody to save her. No dragons, no Jorah or Daario. This was supposed to be the confirmation that she is special on her own. And yes, her powers (unburnt) are special. 

As for the Khal's true to be told, Dothraki's life was all about raping and killing. They were savages, not a friendly cultivated race. 

Edited by Nightwish

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1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

Well, the people hate her. We agree on that. 

Cersei has the power in form of military and King's guard. The situation is fragile.

However, the knights and remaining houses surely are relieved the High Sparrow is gone. No one in his right mind appreciated an aggressive militant sect to grab power. The High Sparrow was a threat to every noble man. They all had interest in him gone. That's why Cersei politically survived blowing up the Sept. 

Yep we certainly do.

She definitely needed to get rid of them, I'm willing to accept that it's much harder to get rid of the High Sparrow than Cersei. Essentially although Cersei is still alive, with a bit of patience they can get rid of her. In the High Sparrow's case it requires an extreme measure, one which Cersei took as she had to make sure the High Sparrow died along with his KL sympathisers.

It would have been a perfect time to start a riot though, act like what she did was atrocious and that The Seven is above all even if the High Sparrow was extreme.

 

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Just now, Nightwish said:

Simply? Dany wouldn't have made it out of there alive since she would spend the rest of her life in that temple. She had to break free. And what she did was quite clever. She cleaned after herself with the help of the other women in the temple and didn't expect anybody to save her. No dragons, no Jorah or Daario. This was supposed to be the confirmation that she is special on her own. And yes, her powers (unburnt) are special. 

As for the Khal's true to be told, Dothraki's life was all about raping and killing. They were savages, not a friendly cultivated race. 

I never said she shouldn t look for a way to save herself and don t have to follow the dothriaki costums.

But for the love of god. She burned the most religious place in dothriaki culture, burned all their leaders and burned the dosh kallen (or what ever those women were called). And all the things these people did were live acording to dothriaki culture! 

You can t say that from the dothriaki point of view she isn t awful! And if this isn t enough then she claims she is their leader and forbids them to follow several of their costums because she doesn t agree with them! Isn t she behaving like a dictator for the dothriaki?

And please, don t tell me how bad the dothriaki were. It isn t that we are discussing. We are talking how danny behaved in response to a huge group of people that wanted her to do something she didn t agree with and had a culture she didn t like. And the show decided to portray danny as some messiah for the dothriaki… How can the dothriaki love her?

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2 hours ago, Kajjo said:

What exactly makes her a hero in your eyes?

<snip>

I'm not going to recite it all, but there's a pretty long list, going all the way back to Season 1. Her journey has been completely epic. She has risked her life many times. Stood up to power many times. Freed the slaves. Saved the North.

What show have you been watching?

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1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

We really do not know his motivation at all. Varys is a mystery in this show. We don't know how an eunuch came to such position in the first place, we do not know how he assembles his spying "birds", how he became master of whiperers. 

I don't trust him. All this "for the realm" sounds lame to me.

Varys will sit on the Throne when it's all said and done.  His spy network is intact. He knows the 'secret' ways of Red Keep.  He backed Danny to unseat Cercei, now he will back Jon to unseat Danny.  When the smoke clears, Varys will be on the throne- 'for the good of the realm'.  Probably as regent to Jon and Danny's child.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, divica said:

But for the love of god. She burned the most religious place in dothriaki culture, burned all their leaders and burned the dosh kallen (or what ever those women were called). And all the things these people did were live acording to dothriaki culture! 

1) She didn't burn the Dosh Kahleen, they where outside, clearly visible.

2) She killed a small group of men who had kidnapped her, planned on basically locking her in for life, and then proceeded to say how they would rape her to death simply because she called them out on their rule being centered about raping and pillaging instead of doing something useful. This is active self-defense.

Dothraki follow strength, and khal's killing other khal's to gain the respect and loyalty of their khalasaar is their way of life.
Daenerys adhered to their way of life when she killed all of the khal's in one fell swoop, and gained the loyalty of the entire race. 
Since the dothraki has followed her ever since, and the remainders still do, she clearly did something right in their eyes. 

 

Edited by MinscS2

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Just now, MinscS2 said:

1) She didn't burn the Dosh Kahleen, they where outside, clearly visible.

2) She killed a small group of men who had kidnapped her, planned on basically locking her in for life, and then proceeded to say how they would rape her to death simply because she called them out on their rule being centered about raping and pillaging instead of doing something useful. 
This active self-defense. 

Dothraki follow strength, and khal's killing other khal's to gain the respect and loyalty of their khalasaar is their way of life.
Daenerys adhered to their way of life when she killed all of the khal's in one fell swoop, and gained the loyalty of the entire race. 
Since the dothraki has followed her ever since, and the remainders still do, she clearly did something right in their eyes. 

 

Only the oprssed dosh kahleen were outside. The leaders of the dosh kahleen died.

And this small group of men had bloodriders and familly that had positions of power within their khalasars that would want to kill danny because she killed their khals. Most of the dothriaki would want to kill her for burning their most  holly place. Most of the dothriaki wouldn t follow a woman.

Then there is a diference between defeating a khal and taking his place and murdering a khal. What danny did was murder...

Then she forbids them from pilaging and raping. That is how they live! A lot of the dothriaki would abandon her because of this.

And I am not discussing if danny did the right thing. I am saying that from the dothriaki pov a lot of them should hate danny and not want to have anything to do with her! She shouldn t be shown as some hero for the dothriaki in the show… 

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