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Petitephlox

Great analysis on why this feels like such a betrayal of Dany’s character

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3 minutes ago, rustythesmith said:

Think of two or three values that you inherited from your parents. Now imagine that I said that I'm going to kill you if you don't change your values to match my values.

Do you see the problem here? <snip>

No, I don't. You're barking up the wrong tree in terms of saying something I would find convincing. I didn't inherit values from my parents, I own my own values. Many are different from my parents, and as to those we share, I honor my parents more for having independently come to those conclusions and accepted those values for my own reasons.

And ultimately, no matter how much room you give somebody for "inheriting" values, there's something very selfish about spending years owning a slave and benefiting from that person's labor and never getting the eureka moment that it's a human being you're dealing with. And no amount of contextualization is going to make me equate the slave owner with the liberator. One is good, one is evil.

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4 hours ago, divica said:

Hell, if they wanted her advisors to turn against her then they could have danny destroying euron's fleet and capturing a lot of iron born.

Then they could have her just order drogon to burn them all alive out of vengence for killing rhaegal.

This would be believable and give a reason for varys and tyrion to turn against her. Even give an example that danny now is willing to comit atrocities in order to defeat her enemies and that tyrion and varys aren t really ok with it.

Yep, if she had given Varys motive then I would have been understanding of the idea that maybe they made a mistake in supporting her even if the throne was 'meant for her' because they don't want to help put somebody in power who will just burn people non-stop.

Yet she's given them no reason atm, she's just helped with the battle against the WW and is on the way to accomplish what she has set out to do from the very beginning and Varys decides to plot against her without any cause?

Why doesn't Varys just dissapear off to Essos or something? Unless he's content with Cersei remaining as queen a war is going to take place regardless of who he decides to support next and guess what? *Surprise Surprise* there is going to be blood shed because Cersei isn't going to make it easy. He needs to do simply do his job and get off this moral high that non of us are convinced by.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

No, I don't. You're barking up the wrong tree in terms of saying something I would find convincing. I didn't inherit values from my parents, I own my own values. Many are different from my parents, and as to those we share, I honor my parents more for having independently come to those conclusions and accepted those values for my own reasons.

And ultimately, no matter how much room you give somebody for "inheriting" values, there's something very selfish about spending years owning a slave and benefiting from that person's labor and never getting the eureka moment that it's a human being you're dealing with. And no amount of contextualization is going to make me equate the slave owner with the liberator. One is good, one is evil.

No amount of contextualization is going to make Hitler equate jews with "real people". You're employing the same reasoning as most of the tyrants throughout history. The thing that makes you so dangerous as a ruler is that you don't realize you're doing it. You think your morality is as flawless as each of those tyrants thought their morality was. Including Dany.

Implicit in the postmodern conceit of ASOIAF is a 5 book long demonstration that the good and evil world view is flawed.

Edited by rustythesmith

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8 minutes ago, LearnToBeNoOne said:

Yep, if she had given Varys motive then I would have been understanding of the idea that maybe they made a mistake in supporting her even if the throne was 'meant for her' because they don't want to help put somebody in power who will just burn people non-stop.

Yet she's given them no reason atm, she's just helped with the battle against the WW and is on the way to accomplish what she has set out to do from the very beginning and Varys decides to plot against her without any cause?

Why doesn't Varys just dissapear off to Essos or something? Unless he's content with Cersei remaining as queen a war is going to take place regardless of who he decides to support next and guess what? *Surprise Surprise* there is going to be blood shed because Cersei isn't going to make it easy. He needs to do simply do his job and get off this moral high that non of us are convinced by.

Agreed.
I've posted it several times in various threads, but Daenerys is great at saying one thing, and then doing another. (Or simply doing nothing at all, just venting steam.)

For all her perceived madness this episode, she has yet to actually do something atrocious. 
She just suffered a number of horrible losses; she's lonely, frustrated, angry and bent on vengeance. 
But so far she's only talked about doing stuff, she's yet to actually do something that would make her daddy proud. 

Varys has no reason to betray her at this point - yet. 
 

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On 5/6/2019 at 1:28 PM, LadyBlackwater said:

I truly hope they don't take her there. It would make me very sad and make her whole journey and all her growth such a waste.

She hasn't much grown since taking Mereen, except when she dropped the war on Cersei and headed North. She is the stone queen who gets backed into corners and burns her way out. Briefly Jon melted her cold, cold heart, which only had room for like four people previously. But he's a naughty nephew now. 

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17 minutes ago, rustythesmith said:

No amount of contextualization is going to make Hitler equate jews with "real people". You're employing the same reasoning as most of the tyrants throughout history. The thing that makes you so dangerous as a ruler is that you don't realize you're doing it. You think your morality is as flawless as each of those tyrants thought their morality was. Including Dany.

Implicit in the postmodern conceit of ASOIAF is a 5 book long demonstration that the good and evil world view is flawed.

Dude/dudette, saying that there is a real differentiation between slave-owners and slave-freers is not saying that "my morality is flawless." I'm saying I believe in things and will act for them. I don't know it all and would never say I do. I rarely feel qualified to judge other human beings, but by god there are some things that are good and some other things that are bad. 

What's dangerous is pretending that you can stand apart from it and judge all things as being equal and never make distinctions, never decide, never act. That's where Nazis come from: evil arises and good people think they "can't judge" or it's "none of my business."

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1 minute ago, MinscS2 said:

Agreed.
I've posted it several times in various threads, but Daenerys is great at saying one thing, and then doing another. (Or simply doing nothing at all, just venting steam.)
For all her perceived madness this episode, she has yet to actually do something atrocious. 
She just suffered a number of horrible losses; she's lonely, frustrated, angry and bent on vengeance. 
But so far she's only talked about doing stuff, she's yet to actually do something that would make her daddy proud
Varys has no reason to betray her at this point - yet. 
 

People say a lot of things out of frustration, anger you name it but that doesn't mean they're going to follow through with it. She had many chances to act irrationally out of anger many times, especially after her losses but remained calm. Some of her actions may have even been justified, it's like being the daughter of the Mad King will always be used against her. Regardless of what she does, she can't win, I mean she didn't go on a crazy murdering spree and Varys still managed to find a reason to plot against her.

It's like because she's the Mad King's daughter she can't show emotion or do anything that results in the spilling of blood although she has a war to fight for the Iron Throne.

Not yet indeed or maybe never but what we do know is that he's going to betray her based on what he believes will happen but has nothing to base it on especially since joining her. So why join her in the first place? It just doesn't make sense. He's simply a snake that thinks he's morally superior. 

 

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26 minutes ago, LearnToBeNoOne said:

Yep, if she had given Varys motive then I would have been understanding of the idea that maybe they made a mistake in supporting her even if the throne was 'meant for her' because they don't want to help put somebody in power who will just burn people non-stop.

Yet she's given them no reason atm, she's just helped with the battle against the WW and is on the way to accomplish what she has set out to do from the very beginning and Varys decides to plot against her without any cause?

Why doesn't Varys just dissapear off to Essos or something? Unless he's content with Cersei remaining as queen a war is going to take place regardless of who he decides to support next and guess what? *Surprise Surprise* there is going to be blood shed because Cersei isn't going to make it easy. He needs to do simply do his job and get off this moral high that non of us are convinced by.

Maybe you're looking at it the wrong way around. He gets his motive from Jon, not from her. Danny was his choice because she was better than Cersei. Now he figures Jon could be better than Danny. 

Varys is a slut who favors the most attractive suitor in the room. 

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1 minute ago, darmody said:

Maybe you're looking at it the wrong way around. He gets his motive from Jon, not from her. Danny was his choice because she was better than Cersei. Now he figures Jon could be better than Danny. 

Varys is a slut who favors the most attractive suitor in the room. 

Oh I've definitely considered that possibility, what I said in a previous post was along the lines that maybe he's willing to betray Dany for Jon because with her current army he believes that she will lose. The only way for him to avoid falling into the hands of Cersei and suffering a miserable death is by strengthening their army to a level where they have the clear upper hand.

Varys can do that by announcing Aegon Targaryen the 'true heir' to the throne which will bring more Targaryen loyalists forward and potentially convince the GC to break their contract.

Simply though as you said he may have just had a change of heart and believes that Jon/Aegon is more suitable to the throne. However if he's going to plot every so often when he thinks somebody else is more suitable then he may as well be exiled so we can stop hearing the 'I serve the Realm' nonsense.

He is indeed extremely fickle.

 

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2 hours ago, the red god said:

aaand that's when i stop caring about your opinion. jesus christ cnn is cancer...

Alright, folks, I’m not saying that Clinton is Daenerys. I’m saying that I believe that the writing on this show is a betrayal of Dany’s character for multiple reasons — not least because of the ridiculous about face they’ve just done. And yes, some people have hated Dany for a long time. What I do believe is that Daenerys is being treated with a double standard when it comes to her ambition- read POWER HUNGRY and OBSESSED and her tactics - CRAZY, MAD, etc. She’s held to a far higher standard for her actions than any of the men. 

We’ve seen many, many men in these books and on this show who are hailed as heroes execute others and make mistakes, as well, but Dany is the evil Big Bad Mad Queen because she dares to want fight for what she believes in. She’s human, she has flaws, she is impulsive, she’s made mistakes. She’s also a lifesaver and hero for many. Don’t forget what Missandei said in the crypts. Her people DO love her and believe in her. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Petitephlox said:

 What I do believe is that Daenerys is being treated with a double standard when it comes to her ambition- read POWER HUNGRY and OBSESSED and her tactics - CRAZY, MAD, etc. She’s held to a far higher standard for her actions than any of the men. 

Every single male who was a king or pretender was treated the same way other than Robb, who was murdered together with his followers because of his failures. 

Stannis murdered his own child to fulfil his ambitions. I have already said this on the thread. Its pitiful to try to pretend Daenerys is the only one whos bid for leadership is shown to be morally compromised. 

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39 minutes ago, darmody said:

She hasn't much grown since taking Mereen, except when she dropped the war on Cersei and headed North. She is the stone queen who gets backed into corners and burns her way out. Briefly Jon melted her cold, cold heart, which only had room for like four people previously. But he's a naughty nephew now. 

But it could be argued that she is doing exactly what Jon did during his growth. At the wall, he had some terribly hard choices to make and Maester Aemon told him to "Kill the boy!" and that is what he had to do. She has had to Kill the girl, but was in some of her own horrible situations in order to do so.

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1 hour ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

 

Er... let’s look at some of the male heroes and their executions/mistakes. Ned Stark has executed people. Jon Snow has. Tyrion murdered someone in a jealous rage. Theon? Redeemed, we all love him. Jorah? Redeemed. Robb? Murdered, but people were angry, not saying “Great! He wants the Throne, he is POWER HUNGRY and must die.” 

Dany? Can free slaves, put her “power hunger” on hold to help save Jon and his men north of the wall, help save Winterfell, sacrifice everything she holds dear to help others and is still being looked down on for daring to execute the Tarlys, for daring to have a dream to take the Iron Throne back and break the wheel. 

Think of her what you will, but to blindly ignore the GOOD deeds she’s done and demonize her for ambition and military tactics that many others get a pass for is absolutely holding her to a different standard. 

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And also - if the show makes her suddenly into the ultimate Big Bad, what is her legacy? She has freed slaves, she has saved Winterfell and the living. Does she merely go down in history as yet another “Mad Queen” who dared have too much ambition and had to be taken out when she became filled with rage/grief? What’s the point of someone like Missandei pointing out to Tyrion and Sansa that “We’d all be dead if it weren’t for her.” 

This episode just felt like a betrayal and belittling of her arc. A good writer (am looking at you, GRRM) could tell this story in a much more nuanced way. Is she a hero that loses at the end because she couldn’t control her rage and grief? Ok, tell that story in a thoughtful way and we can buy into that tragedy (e.g. Dark Willow). 

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25 minutes ago, Petitephlox said:

Alright, folks, I’m not saying that Clinton is Daenerys. I’m saying that I believe that the writing on this show is a betrayal of Dany’s character for multiple reasons — not least because of the ridiculous about face they’ve just done. And yes, some people have hated Dany for a long time. What I do believe is that Daenerys is being treated with a double standard when it comes to her ambition- read POWER HUNGRY and OBSESSED and her tactics - CRAZY, MAD, etc. She’s held to a far higher standard for her actions than any of the men. 

We’ve seen many, many men in these books and on this show who are hailed as heroes execute others and make mistakes, as well, but Dany is the evil Big Bad Mad Queen because she dares to want fight for what she believes in. She’s human, she has flaws, she is impulsive, she’s made mistakes. She’s also a lifesaver and hero for many. Don’t forget what Missandei said in the crypts. Her people DO love her and believe in her. 

 

 

that wasn't aimed towards you. i was referring to the cnn author that i quoted who seriously compared hrc to danaerys, which is one of the dumbest fucking things i've ever heard. that sociopath has far more in common with cersei than she ever will with dany.

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1 minute ago, the red god said:

 

that wasn't aimed towards you. i was referring to the cnn author that i quoted who seriously compared hrc to danaerys, which is one of the dumbest fucking things i've ever heard. that sociopath has far more in common with cersei than she ever will with dany.

I don't want this thread to go off on politics, but I call serious bullshit on this and if we were arguing somewhere else where it was appropriate I would rain facts on your head hard and heavy.

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3 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

I don't want this thread to go off on politics, but I call serious bullshit on this and if we were arguing somewhere else where it was appropriate I would rain facts on your head hard and heavy.

yes, because i've been following the clintons for nearly 30 years, so clearly i don't have any facts of my own...

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, the red god said:

yes, because i've been following the clintons for nearly 30 years, so clearly i don't have any facts of my own...

Cut the politics, please. I find what you are saying offensive, I'm quite certain that any "facts" you would cite come from right-wing publications, and most importantly this is not the place to argue it. 

Edited by Hodor's Dragon

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2 hours ago, rustythesmith said:

It's meant to convey that, from many valid perspectives, Dany is the bad guy. The people and families she kills with her dragons would say that their lives are more valuable than the lives of any number of dragons, as you would too if you were them. If they had an opportunity to kill the dragons to save their families, they would take the opportunity without flinching, just as you would. You might dodge the dilemma by saying "No, I don't have a family" or "No, I would let my family die so that dragons can live." But I don't imagine that I need to point out the weakness of those arguments.

So now we've established that, if you were a slaver in Astapor, Yunkai or Meereen and you had the ability to kill the dragons, you would have killed them. Then there it is. We've just proven that human life is more valuable than dragon life, from every perspective that matters, because no person or group would elect to die over killing any number of dragons.

She didn't kill them for either reason. Dany was faced with two options that were unacceptable to her. Either act in contradiction with her anti-slavery values and her motherly love of Drogon buy trading Drogon for an army of slaves, or, continue on her path without any army, as her brother tried and failed to do. Dany's betrayal and conquest of Astapor was done in defiance of that difficult decision. She's trying to have her cake and eat it too. "If I'm freeing the slaves, then I'm not a slaver." This way she gets to have an army, at the end of the day, benefiting from the fruits of slavery. And still be able to tell herself that she isn't partaking in the ugly tradition of slavery.

This isn't a zero sum game. One doesn't have to be innocent in order for the other to be evil, nor vice versa. Both Dany and the slavers are grey, as is the case with every person under the sun. What I'm pointing out is that the slavers are slavers, in large part, by virtue of simply having been born in Slaver's Bay. And that if you were the son or daughter of a slaver, you would be a slaver too. Unless you suppose that you're single-handedly going to change all of the social, religious, political and economic systems that hold up your civilization.

I know exactly what circumstances fate would have put you in if you were in this situation. You were born there, as most of them were. Your beliefs and attitudes toward slavery would reflect exactly their beliefs and attitudes toward slavery, because those are the values you would have inherited from the only family and environment you have ever known.
 

With respect, I think that's naive and that you aren't taking the hypothetical seriously enough. People like Ned and Jon are the best rulers, in no small part, because of their ability to take the lives of people they can't see, don't like or don't quite understand, into their moral calculations.


 

 

You are arguing something that I never disagreed with. I never said animal lives were more valuable than humans. If you knew me you would know I don't dodge any dilemma and was pointing out your argument about it being very clear cut because one entity is a dragon & the other is a human is weak. 

If a dragon was trying to kill me &/or my loved ones & I had the ability to kill it, I would. So? Again you are arguing something I never disagreed about. 

Of course it isn't a zero sum argument. There is lots of grey in all of us but to pretend there is no difference between the slavers who torture & mutilate those they "own" & the person that set them free is absolutely untrue. 

You are missing my point. I disagree with slavery. Period. It doesn't matter what my parents did, I don't like it. It is possible that being in that setting would force me into a situation where I had to own slaves but there is nothing naive about knowing that, regardless of anything else, I would not, could not, torture, murder, & maim people. 

Everyone's beliefs & attitudes do not over come their moral compass. Even people that grew up in slavery figured out it was wrong. They weren't always able to change it but they did their part & that's what I would do. 

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59 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Dude/dudette, saying that there is a real differentiation between slave-owners and slave-freers is not saying that "my morality is flawless." I'm saying I believe in things and will act for them. I don't know it all and would never say I do. I rarely feel qualified to judge other human beings, but by god there are some things that are good and some other things that are bad. 

What's dangerous is pretending that you can stand apart from it and judge all things as being equal and never make distinctions, never decide, never act. That's where Nazis come from: evil arises and good people think they "can't judge" or it's "none of my business."

I've presented the sympathetic position of the Astapori slaver as well as I can. I've shown you that you would be a slaver too if you were born into his situation. We're able to witness the havoc that Dany's self righteous campaign has wrought on the region. We're able to see how Dany's morality has been corrupted by it and led her toward a darker shade of grey than we have ever seen her before. I've placed the humanity of the Astapori slaver in front of you but you still seem to advocate for the wholesale slaughter of the Astapori slavers. You're still defending Dany's actions because you're convinced, as Dany was convinced, of a black and white morality that "slavery is bad therefore people who do slavery deserve to die." 

I haven't judged all things being equal at any point whatsoever. Pointing out that everyone's situation is sympathetic is not the same thing as acquitting everyone of the consequences of their actions. There are unavoidable limitations to how much sympathy we can afford to extend to one another, because time and resources are finite. Choosing a more measured and sophisticated path to changing the world is not "never acting." It's acting in a way that is more likely to produce lasting and meaningful change than a Fire and Blood approach. Even a Fire and Blood approach as momentous as that of Aegon the Conqueror could not stand the test of time because the Targaryen's philosophy on justice is flawed in such a way as to cause the consciences of its rulers to become corrupt, by not performing their own executions.

These are all mistakes that Dany is making and has made repeatedly throughout the story. It's written that way so that we can track the success or failure of each philosophy from cover to cover and see exactly where and how each philosophy succeeded or failed.

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