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Great analysis on why this feels like such a betrayal of Dany’s character

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1 minute ago, Figdoni said:

So you would take a characters opinion of another character ahead of what is shown before your eyes?

I actually think its great storytelling, to be showing the audience this side of her so very clearly and so very blatantly, yet still manage to deflect fans from recognising this streak even exists because it's been embedded amongst some positive traits. One could argue that GRRM is making that a teachable moment about what people choose to see in the leaders they follow, to not have their judgements clouded. 

The dark side of Dany has simply always been there... these clips illustrate it thoroughly... and it probably hasn't even gotten any worse. What has gotten worse is her willingness to listen to others, and her compassion and temperance is waning the more angry she gets...


 

That's how the show operates.  Sansa committed straight up treason by not revealing the Vale army while at the same time whining to Jon that we need more men.  Yet, she isn't called a traitor, but is rewarded as a patriot.   The show has showed me that all the Dothraki died, but it tells me only 50% did.  The show most assuredly wants me to believe what they tell me through the characters believe and not objectively what I see that happens.

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10 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

@Figdoni don't forget the time she told Hizdahr she'd return his city to the dirt. @Juligen should get credit for putting these together as well in her "queen of ashes" theory.

I haven't seen Juligens post... is it a different thread? (I haven't read all of this thread yet if its here).
I didn't recall Dany saying it to Hizdahr as well, just Tyrion but would love a reminder if Juligens' posted it.
 

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1 minute ago, Figdoni said:

So you would take a characters opinion of another character ahead of what is shown before your eyes?

I actually think its great storytelling, to be showing the audience this side of her so very clearly and so very blatantly, yet still manage to deflect fans from recognising this streak even exists because it's been embedded amongst some positive traits. One could argue that GRRM is making that a teachable moment about what people choose to see in the leaders they follow, to not have their judgements clouded. 

The dark side of Dany has simply always been there... these clips illustrate it thoroughly... and it probably hasn't even gotten any worse. What has gotten worse is her willingness to listen to others, her paranoia.... and her compassion and temperance is waning the more angry she gets...


 

Daenerys' worst moments aren't as bad as things all the other rulers do. Why is she "mad" and Tywin Lannister was brilliant for wiping out an entire family and all its descendants? What is it exactly that we have been seeing "so very clearly and so very blatantly?"

Not following you at all here. I do think she said and did some things in episode 4 that she couldn't--things that weren't really consistent with her 8-season character arc--but nothing even remotely in the league of "mad." What are you talking about?

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

The show most assuredly wants me to believe what they tell me through the characters...

Erm, because good writing is supposed to surprise you... it deflects and sets up red herrings and gives clues rather than tell you what to think, it should want you to think.

If we take every character at face value based on what other characters believe about them, then lets all mourn Stannis, the Prince who was Promised.

Edited by Figdoni

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5 minutes ago, Figdoni said:

Erm, because good writing is supposed to surprise you... it deflects and sets up red herrings and gives clues rather than tell you what to think, it should want you to think.

If we take every character at face value based on what other characters believe about them, then lets all mourn Stannis, the Prince who was Promised.

If you want to defend the show as being well written, I'm not going to stop you, but I can't agree.  It is extremely poorly structured and written. 

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7 minutes ago, Figdoni said:

Erm, because good writing is supposed to surprise you... it deflects and sets up red herrings and gives clues rather than tell you what to think, it should want you to think.

If we take every character at face value based on what other characters believe about them, then lets all mourn Stannis, the Prince who was Promised.

So, when the show has Arya say that Sansa is the smartest person she's ever met, so, smarter than Tywin Lannister, even though I have seen her do stupid thing after stupid thing, including in that same episode.

Why do you think they wrote that line?  Do you think they want me to ignore her stupid actions and consider her smart?  Or is there some other reason you think they wrote that line?

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Posted (edited)

After watching close to 8 seasons all the atrocities committed by so many characters, it doesn’t make sense in a few episodes to conceive with any believability that Daenerys is now the worst monster to ever set foot in Westeros and must be put down.  

Edited by TheFirstofHerName

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Just now, TheFirstofHerName said:

After watching close to 8 seasons all the atrocities committed by so many characters, it doesn’t make sense in a few episodes to conceive with any believability that Daenerys is now the worst monster to ever set foot in Westeros and must be put down.  

But how can they solve the problems they raised this ep?

Varys will betray danny for sure.

tyrion basically agreed with him and was on the fence. Given all the leaks it is very probably he will also betray her.

Given that it was all because sansa didn t keep the secret she has guilt in what happens. From danny pov it even seems she is plotting against her.

I just can t see jon acepting danny trying to punish sansa or even tyrion (given that tyrion in the show only does good things).

 

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Just now, divica said:

But how can they solve the problems they raised this ep?

Varys will betray danny for sure.

tyrion basically agreed with him and was on the fence. Given all the leaks it is very probably he will also betray her.

Given that it was all because sansa didn t keep the secret she has guilt in what happens. From danny pov it even seems she is plotting against her.

I just can t see jon acepting danny trying to punish sansa or even tyrion (given that tyrion in the show only does good things).

 

I think Sansa is out of it, I can't see Dany sieging KL and then going back to WF to accuse Sansa of treason.  If she goes crazy, it will be in KL, she will execute Varys, maybe Tyrion [one can only hope] and then start in on the soldiers and citizens.  

I find it still hard to believe Jon would really kill her, good lord, the guy couldn't even kill a total stranger wildling woman who he thinks is his enemy, now he's going to kill his lover and aunt?  Who also lost much of her own people and dragons fighting for him and his dumb war against the NK?   

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What is Daenerys supposed to do?

A lot of you have been whining and crying about the pointlessness of Dany's experiences in Essos (slaver's bay mostly) and moaning about why it is taking Daenerys so long to return to Westeros.

But when she finally gets there, a lot of you are acting like you want her to just go back to Meereen. Some of you are acting like Daenerys should just shrugged and retired to Vaes Dothrak after Drogo's funeral or that she should've just let the warlocks in Qarth imprison her and give her a slow death.

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5 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Daenerys' worst moments aren't as bad as things all the other rulers do. Why is she "mad" and Tywin Lannister was brilliant for wiping out an entire family and all its descendants? What is it exactly that we have been seeing "so very clearly and so very blatantly?"

Not following you at all here. I do think she said and did some things in episode 4 that she couldn't--things that weren't really consistent with her 8-season character arc--but nothing even remotely in the league of "mad." What are you talking about?

I'm not sure who you're quoting here, as I haven't referred to her as mad... I posted some clips in response to:
"there was no decent into or turn toward darkness but a plummet.  But never would she have suggested burning a city of innocent people to the ground"... 
- clips that showed that she did actually talk about burning cities and showing darkness. They're just a few posts back if you missed them :)

If you are actually ASKING me what I think, rather than telling me what I think, about whether Dany is any more mad than Cersei, Tywin, Walder Frey, Joffrey  etc... I would answer No... not yet...  If she burns cities to the ground, then she'll certainly be thought of, or remembered as being mad like her father... If by 'mad' we mean paranoid and unable to control his impulses - burning sons in front of their fathers, as we are told Aerys did, then it's hard to argue that the show hasn't been showing signs of this.


Is it possible that actually a very large number of tyrants that wielded power in Westeros just as "mad" as the mad king was?
Yeah... I can believe that... 
Westeros was ruled mostly by Targaryans since it was united into the 7 kingdoms... and we're told that it was a coin flip - a 50/50 chance that the ruling Targaryan is mad, and its blamed on incest.
But I can't help notice that its close to a 50/50 chance of them seeming unhinged when we just look at the current royal family.
Maybe that's something that'll get some focus in the books or remaining show? 

35 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Why do you think they wrote that line?  Do you think they want me to ignore her stupid actions and consider her smart?  Or is there some other reason you think they wrote that line?

I've more or less answered this... to get you to think. To ask questions. To try see different viewpoints and understand them. To piece together all the different perspectives..... You are meant to question why Arya now thinks she's smart... Arya who is always critical of Sansa... it's an unlikely line from an unlikely source, so what does Arya know that's making her say this now?
Is Arya right? Who knows... but she maybe knows something we don't.

 

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5 minutes ago, Figdoni said:

snipped...

I've more or less answered this... to get you to think. To ask questions. To try see different viewpoints and understand them. To piece together all the different perspectives..... You are meant to question why Arya now thinks she's smart... Arya who is always critical of Sansa... it's an unlikely line from an unlikely source, so what does Arya know that's making her say this now?
Is Arya right? Who knows... but she maybe knows something we don't.

 

I don't agree.  The show is setting up Sansa to rule the North. So of course she has to be super smart, this is why her much smarter sister praises her. That's all there is.  The same reason multiple characters commented on Jon and Dany's attraction.  Because the show didn't credibly show it, since there is zero chemistry between Emelia and Kit, so they had the characters comment on it.  It's another lazy form of storytelling, that's' it, nothing more.

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18 minutes ago, divica said:

But how can they solve the problems they raised this ep?

Varys will betray danny for sure.

tyrion basically agreed with him and was on the fence. Given all the leaks it is very probably he will also betray her.

Given that it was all because sansa didn t keep the secret she has guilt in what happens. From danny pov it even seems she is plotting against her.

I just can t see jon acepting danny trying to punish sansa or even tyrion (given that tyrion in the show only does good things).

 

You’re right. Most likely everything will go down as the leaks suggest.  

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1 hour ago, Figdoni said:

I haven't seen Juligens post... is it a different thread? (I haven't read all of this thread yet if its here).
I didn't recall Dany saying it to Hizdahr as well, just Tyrion but would love a reminder if Juligens' posted it.
 

She said it to Hizdahr in the fighting pits, when he talks about the traditions of Meereen. 

Here you go:

 

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Just now, Cas Stark said:

I think Sansa is out of it, I can't see Dany sieging KL and then going back to WF to accuse Sansa of treason.  If she goes crazy, it will be in KL, she will execute Varys, maybe Tyrion [one can only hope] and then start in on the soldiers and citizens.  

I find it still hard to believe Jon would really kill her, good lord, the guy couldn't even kill a total stranger wildling woman who he thinks is his enemy, now he's going to kill his lover and aunt?  Who also lost much of her own people and dragons fighting for him and his dumb war against the NK?   

I will hate it if jon kills dany. It is completly against any logic. It is one of those things that happen because D&D want it.

However I can see why jon might need to do it. Jon letting ygrite live doesn t really have much consequences. On the other hand, if danny begins her reign by taking a lot of bad decisions (burning inocents, being brutal against varys and tyrion, killing all the lannister soldiers and GC...) jon might realise that she isn t fit to rule westeros and that she won t ever abdicate. The only thing he can do for westeros is kill her...

However this sounds a lot like fan fiction. Danny might kill inocents because she has to do it in order to win, but I just can t see her executing comon soldiers or citzens. And we have seen in ep 1 that jon understands that a queen/king has to punish traitors. I think the problem will be that she will see sansa as a threat to her. After all, because of sansa danny the loyalty of some of her advisers... 

And the more I think the more I am convinced that we won t know if jon kills danny next ep. I bet the ep will end with the battle...

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1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

I don't agree.  The show is setting up Sansa to rule the North. So of course she has to be super smart, this is why her much smarter sister praises her. That's all there is.  The same reason multiple characters commented on Jon and Dany's attraction.  Because the show didn't credibly show it, since there is zero chemistry between Emelia and Kit, so they had the characters comment on it.  It's another lazy form of storytelling, that's' it, nothing more.

I wouldn't blame lazy storytelling, but more the fact that there simply isn't enough time in the series to dedicate to showing us a blossoming romance. We've had precisely 3 ''romantic" scenes between them and the last one wasn't really supposed to be romantic.
There isn't enough time to show Sansa as she is now, running Winterfell and dealing with all the different houses. Or Arya and Sansa discussing Littlefinger and planning his execution... there are gaps in the story which are unavoidable on screen, but GRRM can dedicate pages and pages to. These are the limitations of tv, not the limitations of the writers, and yeah, it is a screenwriters tool to use characters to tell us about developments that take place off screen ... but those lines from those characters only tell us what those characters perspectives of events are, they don't tell us what to think... Just as we are not supposed to think Stannis is TPTWP just because a character keeps telling us they are, and keeps telling us that they saw it in the flames... we're meant to view what's said through the filter of who is saying it & what their prejudices might be.

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9 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

She said it to Hizdahr in the fighting pits, when he talks about the traditions of Meereen. 

Here you go:

 

Wow, brilliant post, thank you... I'd forgotten a lot of these :D

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20 minutes ago, Figdoni said:

I'm not sure who you're quoting here, as I haven't referred to her as mad... I posted some clips in response to:
"there was no decent into or turn toward darkness but a plummet.  But never would she have suggested burning a city of innocent people to the ground"... 
- clips that showed that she did actually talk about burning cities and showing darkness. They're just a few posts back if you missed them :)

If you are actually ASKING me what I think, rather than telling me what I think, about whether Dany is any more mad than Cersei, Tywin, Walder Frey, Joffrey  etc... I would answer No... not yet...  If she burns cities to the ground, then she'll certainly be thought of, or remembered as being mad like her father... If by 'mad' we mean paranoid and unable to control his impulses - burning sons in front of their fathers, as we are told Aerys did, then it's hard to argue that the show hasn't been showing signs of this.


Is it possible that actually a very large number of tyrants that wielded power in Westeros just as "mad" as the mad king was?
Yeah... I can believe that... 
Westeros was ruled mostly by Targaryans since it was united into the 7 kingdoms... and we're told that it was a coin flip - a 50/50 chance that the ruling Targaryan is mad, and its blamed on incest.
But I can't help notice that its close to a 50/50 chance of them seeming unhinged when we just look at the current royal family.
Maybe that's something that'll get some focus in the books or remaining show? 

I've more or less answered this... to get you to think. To ask questions. To try see different viewpoints and understand them. To piece together all the different perspectives..... You are meant to question why Arya now thinks she's smart... Arya who is always critical of Sansa... it's an unlikely line from an unlikely source, so what does Arya know that's making her say this now?
Is Arya right? Who knows... but she maybe knows something we don't.

 

Thanks, that's reasonable. I agree, if she burns entire cities the calculus will change. Her past actions haven't set that up, but that doesn't appear to matter so much here in season 8.

Daenerys has acted significantly more rashly in the show than in the books, but still not rashly enough to set up burning cities. I can see her doing that--in the show. She looked like kind of a different character in epi 4, but so far it has just been talk and dour looks--we'll just have to see about the actual burning of innocents.

In the books the only way I could see that happening is if something horrible happens to drive her mad, which is what happened to Aerys. That horrible thing hasn't happened yet.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/6/2019 at 6:42 PM, Petitephlox said:

I thought this article was right on! 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/06/opinions/daenerys-targaryen-leads-jon-snow-credit-opinion-mantoan/index.html

Is it possible that the show will surprise us yet again and NOT go the “oh she’s horrible and ambitious mad queen” route?

 

Have you read the Wheel of Time? In that there a similar situation where a major character is going insane. At a particular moment, when things are going incredibly bad we are led to believe that he is crazy enough to do something unspeakable and kill millions with a magic weapon to win the war and save the world. But in the end he pulls back from the precipice and finds another way.

I still think that is what they are doing. All of Danys losses are about bringing her down to the absolute lowest point before she rises above that. 

I don’t think the show makers are cynical enough to say that Jorah, Barristan and Missandei were wrong about Dany. Remember, Sansa is ignorant of Danys story, as Jon tells her and so her conspiring to overthrow Dany is baseless. When Sansa asks “why her” when looking at the dragons, or Dany saying that nobody in Westeros has ever looked at her with adoration that’s a sentiment so sharply at odds with the first six seasons and her depiction.

Edited by Tyrion1991

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2 hours ago, rustythesmith said:

You strongly implied it here:

No I didn't. That was in response to you saying how crazy it was for Daenerys to call the dragons her children. I likened it to people who call their dogs their children (animals they didn't hatch from eggs in a burning pyre) I was stating people love their animals. Nothing about animal lives being more valuable than humans. 

 

2 hours ago, rustythesmith said:

You strongly implied it here:

To summarize how I interpret your points here, you're implying that Dany's actions are justified because her situation is sympathetic. If that isn't what you're implying then I don't know why else you might have brought it up as a point.

I disagree for two reasons. One is that everyone doesn't love their pets irrationally. As much as I love my dogs, I would not choose their lives over the life of another human being when pressed. Another reason is that everyone's situation is ultimately sympathetic. There are limitations to how much sympathy people can afford to extend to one another because time and resources are limited. Therefore actions are not necessarily justified by virtue of being sympathetic. For example, a school shooter is sympathetic, but we still need to lock him up to make sure he doesn't do it again

My point is not that Dany is bad for valuing her dragon's lives over human lives. My intent was to demonstrate that the value judgement is relative to the person making the judgement. Dany might value her dragon's lives higher than a slaver's family's lives, and the slaver would likely value his and his family's lives higher than the dragon's lives.

I think the purpose of GRRM having written this entire story form a limited first-person point of view is to draw attention to the relativistic nature of moral judgements. And the purpose of drawing attention the relativity of moral judgements is to highlight that we all have a moral responsibility to take one another's positions and perspectives into our calculations for moral judgements.

It seems to me that the reason show watchers feel blindsided by Dany's turn toward a darker shade of grey is due to one of three things, or perhaps a combination of them:

1. The show's failure to adequately represent the positions and perspectives of the people Dany has harmed unduly.

I think the show has done a pretty good job of this actually. For example, in Meereeen, slaves beg to be sold back into slavery because they prefer slavery to the freedom to starve to death that Dany has inflicted upon them.

2. The show's failure to adequately illustrate the premises that would provide the viewer with the interpretive tools to discover that Dany has, in fact, produced more undue suffering in the world than she has alleviated.

I think the show has done a bad job of this because, for example, the revenges of characters like Sansa and Arya haven't cycled around to take its toll on them. Most of Ned's philosophy has been left out of the S1 script.

3. The viewer's failure to take the positions and perspectives of the people Dany has harmed seriously.

I think this is the majority of what is going on. People have been making excuses for Dany's brutality since season 1, myself included. But that's kind of the point of it all.

I am implying Dany's actions are sympathetic. They are. More than that though I'm disagreeing with you saying not only that the slavers actions are sympathetic but that they are more so than Dany's. The issue I have with this is that the slavers enslaved, murdered, tortured, & disfigured people. Dany killed those people. 

I don't understand how anyone can say defend the slavers or use that as evidence of Dany's madness or cruelty with a straight face. 

I think you need to read your own argument but apply it to the slavers. There are limits to sympathy and my limit is drawn at the 'enjoyment of hurting other people' line. Apparently yours encompasses slavers but not the person who killed said slavers because ... I'm not even sure why. Because human lives are more important than animals? I don't even understand how this applies to this tbh. She hasn't killed anyone because she had to pick her dragons or some person. 

That being said I would like to make it very clear that I would absolutely value my dog's life over the hypothetical person that tortured & killed my dog because they enjoyed it. I'm not saying if my dog gets out & someone accidentally hits her with their car & she dies that person deserves some punishment. I'm saying people that get enjoyment out of the punishment or cruelty of another being, whether that be a dog, a dragon, or another person, have no value to their life and I disagree that that means I love my dog irrationally. 

Yes we all have a responsibility to be empathetic. Of course the slavers would value their own lives over Dany's dragons. That's completely normal. My argument is that, in this particular circumstance I don't equate Dany burning the slavers with Dany valuing the lives of her dragons over that of humans. (Although I personally would probably value the lives of my pet over the life of sadistic murderer/s) 

1. I don't think the show has done that great of a job showing anything honestly but would agree they have shown some of the repercussions & issues with Dany's decisions. One thing doesn't lead to the other though. Dany freed the slaves & believed she was doing something good. She can't have known a the possible outcomes of that situation & obviously didn't for see the problem of the slaves starving. That doesn't mean she is "a self-righteous brat" & it is a far cry from freeing slaves to burning innocent civilians alive. 

2. Maybe I agree here because I don't think she has caused more harm than good so maybe it's because the show hasn't shown it. I've taken Daenerys journey through this whole story as a learning experience. I expected her to learn from her mistakes. Grow with them, and make different ones in the future. This is why I personally was blindsided by her wanting to burn KL. Because she has never expressed any urge to do anything like this before, because she has made mistakes along the way but they have all come from good intentions , because she has continuously showed concern for her people, & always expressed a desire to be a good ruler. To go from that to wanting to burn innocent people (her potential subjects) is not a natural turn of events & IF Dany gets to this point in the book there will be a gradual decline & internal monologue that will set this up very clearly. The show doesn't have that. There is no gradual incline because her intentions were completely different from one episode to the next. 

3. Come now. This is a forum of "super fans" if you will. This series has been analyzed & analyzed & analyzed. You truly believe the majority of people that defend her actions just failed to recognize how her actions have affected the people she acted on? I don't think so, but I suppose there is no way to tell. The greatest thing about this series is that it depicts the good & bad in all people & decisions so amazingly that sometimes we do root for the "bad" guy. Because he isn't really the "bad" guy. Otherwise how could we love characters like Jaime & Theon? If someone is missing that, I feel like they are missing the best part. I, personally, just sympathize with Daenerys more than the slavers. I don't think that means I missing the point or missing the slavers suffering. 

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