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So, Arya and Sansa are evil, right?


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How come people are blaming everyone but dany? Sansa told her the troops needed to rest(as well as the dragons), which was totally reasonable. Dany was all like “noope! I don’t think so!) also i am the furthest thing from a Sansa fan,Stan or supporter...to be honest I kind of hate Sansa :leaving:... lol but dany seems to be uhm... how do you say “wild’n out” right now. Lol

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8 minutes ago, Coffeewiththegods said:

How come people are blaming everyone but dany? 

As I mentioned on another thread, if Jon hadn't convinced Dany to go defend the North, Dany would be sitting on the Iron Throne right now with most of her army intact, including 3 living dragons, and Jorah and Missandei are probably still alive. Instead, she decides to do the "noble" thing and fight the AotD. Without Dany's support, there are no Arya heroics, no living Sansa or Bran (or Jon or any other Northmen, for that matter). Right now, Dany and Friends would be trying to figure out how to defeat the NK.

So would it have killed Sansa to drop the petulant child act and actually show some gratefulness towards Dany? No, instead everyone's chalking it up to "new Sansa and her character growth as a player of the game". 

If Dany does flip out in the next episode, I'm not sure you can completely blame her, at least the way the story has been presented. 

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50 minutes ago, Ser Sinister said:

As I mentioned on another thread, if Jon hadn't convinced Dany to go defend the North, Dany would be sitting on the Iron Throne right now with most of her army intact, including 3 living dragons, and Jorah and Missandei are probably still alive. Instead, she decides to do the "noble" thing and fight the AotD. Without Dany's support, there are no Arya heroics, no living Sansa or Bran (or Jon or any other Northmen, for that matter). Right now, Dany and Friends would be trying to figure out how to defeat the NK.

The NK would never pass the Wall, they only do because he steals Dany's dragon. Even that would be resolved. 

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Jesus, no, in no way are they evil. They're just two women who've been through extreme trauma and have suffered severe loss of family and thus are paranoid; they want to do everything they possibly can to ensure the preservation of their family and their continued survival even if that means not trusting some queen who, realistically, they have no reason to trust.

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12 minutes ago, Ser Sinister said:

Very good point.

Disagree, shoot I quoted that wrong. can't fix it. argument is that the dragons are the reason the wall fell but the night king would have made his way through or around or found some way to get by. Through Sam's little underpass-wait did that even happen in the show?- or around eastwatch or finding a way to break the spells, he wouldn't have stopped at the wall. Yes Dany could have made it to the throne and yes it would be the North's problem for some time, as fast as the NK and army take over can anybody get out a Raven to tell anyone what's happening? And would they believe it? And she wouldn't have the North's support and her bid for the throne. is it Varys who says John might be the only one who can keep the North in the seven kingdoms? Dorne has done fine on its own for nigh 20 years. Why should they join? The north can definitely do fine on it's own. They're better at 7 but they can survive on their own. Dany's seven kingdoms quickly becomes five the ironborn can also fend for themselves ~kind of. It doesn't take much for the seven of the kingdoms to dwindle to 5 or 4 or less. 

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2 minutes ago, Roux said:

They're better at 7 but they can survive on their own. Denny's seven kingdoms quickly becomes five the ironborn can also fend for themselves ~kind of. It doesn't take much for the seven of the kingdoms to dwindle to 5 or 4 or less. 

The question is, after the fast fight in KL how would Dany convince the other lords to join her side. Maybe by sheer force because she'd have a bigger army and 3 dragons, but, eventually she'd be backstabbed and everything would remain the same, all the ploting, all the treason etc.

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1 minute ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

The question is, after the fast fight in KL how would Dany convince the other lords to join her side. Maybe by sheer force because she'd have a bigger army and 3 dragons, but, eventually she'd be backstabbed and everything would remain the same, all the ploting, all the treason etc.

Her biggest problem is losing the North. This generation has experienced freedom, I don't really know what they did with it on accpunt of half their people are dead and they were at war the entire time... But they fear another cersei or another Joffrey. But since they've hadthe freedom it's gone to their heads and they like the taste of it. After three years of winter I feel like they would come around anyway after they've started off the winter feeding an army of 100,000 and all the guests they can house even for a month or two. That's not fair though nor honorable, brush off the kingdom why you don't need them and then cry when you do. I don't think Sansa is really thinking of it. She needs the other kingdoms right now whether she likes it or not. In the books they make it plain that it's easy to forget about the North. I feel that understands is ruled as Warden of the north it wouldn't be so isolated shed makesure of it. 

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33 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

The NK would never pass the Wall, they only do because he steals Dany's dragon. Even that would be resolved. 

We never did find out about the Horn of Joramund.

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1 minute ago, Roux said:

Her biggest problem is losing the North. This generation has experienced freedom, I don't really know what they did with it on accpunt of half their people are dead and they were at war the entire time... But they fear another cersei or another Joffrey. But since they've hadthe freedom it's gone to their heads and they like the taste of it. After three years of winter I feel like they would come around anyway after they've started off the winter feeding an army of 100,000 and all the guests they can house even for a month or two. That's not fair though nor honorable, brush off the kingdom why you don't need them and then cry when you do. I don't think Sansa is really thinking of it. She needs the other kingdoms right now whether she likes it or not. In the books they make it plain that it's easy to forget about the North. I feel that understands is ruled as Warden of the north it wouldn't be so isolated shed makesure of it. 

This is entirely Jon’s fault, IMHO. Dany was relying on him to be her guide dealing with the North and he’s just completely dropped the ball. 

As soon as Dany realized he wasn’t going to step up and do a better job supporting her, she should have changed tactics. 

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7 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

This is entirely Jon’s fault, IMHO. Dany was relying on him to be her guide dealing with the North and he’s just completely dropped the ball. 

As soon as Dany realized he wasn’t going to step up and do a better job supporting her, she should have changed tactics. 

This is Jons weakness. He loves people and trust them when he really really shouldn't. He'll learn in time but I also feel like he should have bran on his council when he fulfills my dreams of him becoming king. He expects the same level of honor out of other people that he instills in himself, that Ned instilled in him. But now he should realize that they aren't so honorable all the time. *** He doesn't think that his sisters won't love her because he loves her. He sees the best in her doesn't understand that they are suspicious of an outsider because he has these fancy Rose colored glasses that he's staring at his dear Dany with. He doesn't see her as they see her. he sees her bringing an army that will fight his enemy but they've never even seen his enemy. 

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54 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

The NK would never pass the Wall, they only do because he steals Dany's dragon. Even that would be resolved. 

Disagree with this.I think they passed quicker due to the large opening, but IMO, once Bran went south of the wall so could the NK. Remember the NK couldn't enter the cave because of the spells, but once Bran was touched they could. I think they could've passed the wall but would have to file through a gate instead of a gaping hole.

As to the actual thread, no not evil. Sansa is new at having power after being powerless her teenage life. She has seen what can happen to people when they are ruled over, even though she wants to rule, but that's another story.  

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3 hours ago, weirwoodface said:

Evil? No. Not in my opinion.

Sansa has become very calculating. But to be honest, I think her character's personality always leaned in that direction, and the particularly brutal way her innocence was taken from her simply sealed the deal. Even if nothing had ever happened to her, she'd have grown up to be a perfect court schemer, I think. However, I'm not calling her 'evil'. She's no Littlefinger.

And Arya. I personally don't think Arya is plotting against Daenerys. I think Arya is off the Kings Landing to cross a couple more important names off that list, and this would be something she'd do whether Dany was around or not. Her plans to leave afterward signify her acknowledgment that she is fundamentally changed and broken. Perhaps she intends to return to the FM.

 

What I didn't understand is how Arya, in one episode, goes from the reunion of her family, who she rightly calls "the Last of the Starks', and says they don't need outsiders, they are family, etc., to riding out of Winterfell and seeking the company of the Hound to ride down South with the intention of never returning.  Is there any kind of reason for Arya's sudden rejection of her family (did she even say goodbye?) or is just, again, bad writing?  Maybe they're implying that Arya was emotionally spooked by Jon's revelation that he isn't their father's son and now thinks her 'family' isn't solid, isn't what she wants.  

I think it's a shame that Arya rejected Gendry's offer to be Lady Baratheon.  He would have given her considerable freedom and she is fond of him; they could have made quite a power couple in Storm's End.  I'm trying to remember if Arya rejected her rank/status as a 'Lady' in the books (the Arya/Ned "that's not me" scene) as well as in the show (both in Season 1 and in Season 8 episode 4)...Arya seems to have been very damaged.  She'd have done better, also, to stay in Winterfell as an advisor and protector to Sansa.  But I guess she (and possibly the writers) believe that Arya is the only one who can kill Cersei.

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To be honest I don't really like Sansa (especially in the books), but I don't think she antagonizes Daenerys for her personal gain. As Tyrion said, if Jon were to marry Dany and go to KL, Sansa would be the true ruler of Winterfell. I think she's genuinely afraid for Jon's safety, and she doesn't like Daenerys obviously.

Yes, she's scheming behind Jon's back as well, but I believe she's doing it for his sake as well. I find it funny that Jon made Sansa and Arya swear not to tell anybody, but Bran could have easily told everybody (for some reason Bran wanted Jon to know his parentage just before the battle. I thought that was an important info to defeat the dead, but no. So, if that was important only sor succession reasons, why would he allow Jon to keep it a secret?).

As regards Arya... meh, I don't know what to say. She's just weird lately. It could well be that we weren't shown her reaction to Jon's news because that would give away her plans. Maybe she's not going to KL to kill Cersei... But who knows?

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1 minute ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

What I didn't understand is how Arya, in one episode, goes from the reunion of her family, who she rightly calls "the Last of the Starks', and says they don't need outsiders, they are family, etc., to riding out of Winterfell and seeking the company of the Hound to ride down South with the intention of never returning.  Is there any kind of reason for Arya's sudden rejection of her family (did she even say goodbye?) or is just, again, bad writing?  Maybe they're implying that Arya was emotionally spooked by Jon's revelation that he isn't their father's son and now thinks her 'family' isn't solid, isn't what she wants.  

I think it's a shame that Arya rejected Gendry's offer to be Lady Baratheon.  He would have given her considerable freedom and she is fond of him; they could have made quite a power couple in Storm's End.  I'm trying to remember if Arya rejected her rank/status as a 'Lady' in the books (the Arya/Ned "that's not me" scene) as well as in the show (both in Season 1 and in Season 8 episode 4)...Arya seems to have been very damaged.  She'd have done better, also, to stay in Winterfell as an advisor and protector to Sansa.  But I guess she (and possibly the writers) believe that Arya is the only one who can kill Cersei.

We don't know that Sansa and Arya didn't discuss what she is about to do. They could have decided for Arya to kill Dany if Dany wins, so Jon is King. Or, Arya is being true to her character and is going to cross Cersei off her list.

Another not going to happen moment, but what if after her list is empty, Arya rides off to Storms End with a baby bump, total fan fiction but hey, why not.

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4 hours ago, Saturno said:

Now that the threat of the NK is dealt with she suddenly has no care about food and supplies and even invites Dany to wait with her host for YEARS.

Well, they did lose a lot of mouths to feed, so food ration is less of a problem, I guess.

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4 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

What I didn't understand is how Arya, in one episode, goes from the reunion of her family, who she rightly calls "the Last of the Starks', and says they don't need outsiders, they are family, etc., to riding out of Winterfell and seeking the company of the Hound to ride down South with the intention of never returning.  Is there any kind of reason for Arya's sudden rejection of her family (did she even say goodbye?) or is just, again, bad writing?  Maybe they're implying that Arya was emotionally spooked by Jon's revelation that he isn't their father's son and now thinks her 'family' isn't solid, isn't what she wants.  

 

She happened upon the hound. They're alone together. And I love my family i would punch anyone who comes at my family, but I still sneak out at holidays or just don't go. Arya is the hero in Winterfell right now that's a whole lot of attention and a whole lot of praise and that's not what she's about. She hides from the feast she's nearby in case there's trouble but she doesn't want any of that.. she loves her sister heart and soul but she can't stand her. her closest brother has now been taken away from her and labeled cousin. She intends to travel alone but she happens upon sandor and they have this in common the complicated familying. He won't push her to talk about things or praise her for doing her job. He's a good being alone together kinda person. They've gone from a protector and child to kindred pals. 

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