So, Arya and Sansa are evil, right?

[Roux]

3 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Dany should have listened.

Period.  To anyone. Ever. since landing at Winterfell on. Repeat on every post on here. 

[ummester]

4 hours ago, RhaenysBee said:

No, they are just petty little shits. 

Arya is a personality changing, obnoxious superhero. 

Sansa is a baby Cersei. 

There hasn’t been anything compelling about their characters since season 4. 

I'd argue that by your logic, Sansa has never been compelling.  She was a bratty princess cliche in Season 1 and then passive to the point of annoyance in seasons 3-4 - exactly as she is in the books. The only time I warmed to Sansa as a character was when she was wed to Ramsay. Admittedly it was convoluted plotting that made her and LF look stupid to get her into the situation but once she was in the situation, she seemed to become an actual character that actively took part in her own story, rather than just watching and enduring.

Arya's character broke when she went to Bravos, in the show. Seeing as the books have not resolved her Bravos story who knows how if her character is broken on page also.

As for whether the Stark girls have turned evil in show I agree Arya turned evil in Bravos and is still that way inclined. The Night King was actually the unfortunate victim of an evil little cow.

Sansa just seems to flit between power hungry and not inexplicably - I guess as others note, the show is trying to portray her as a true Stark and doing whatever is loyal to the north. But I always found Sansa the closest child in nature, appearance and upbringing to Cat - so her turning out to be the ultra northern loyalists seems strange, not impossible, just strange.

[aquintus]

Apparently everyone in the show is evil at this point. Except for Jon, and the only reason Jon isn't evil is because he's apparently too dumb to walk and chew at the same time. 

[Ser Loras The Gay]

25 minutes ago, Roux said:

Period.  To anyone. Ever. since landing at Winterfell on. Repeat on every post on here. 

But she did listen. She listened when people told her not to simply invade KL and end the war quickly. She listened to Jon when he told her about the Others. She stopped listening after all her advices were literal garbage and may be her doom.

[Gianna Dorenberg]

6 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

They certainly aren't honorable in the slightest.

Ned kept Jons identity a secret and ultimately died defending it, and then Sansa spilled within 5 minutes for her own gains. 

I genuinely couldn't care less if either of them died at this point. 

 

Hear hear.

\

[King Jon Snow Stark]

1 hour ago, aquintus said:

Apparantly everyone in the show is evil at this point. Except for Jon, and the only reason Jon isn't evil is because he's apparently too dumb to walk and chew at the same time. 

Give him another season or two, Jon is a mad king!!!!!

[Smoke317]

2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Sansa said the reason she's objecting to Dany is because Dany's troops are fighting a war they aren't prepared for. Implying Cersei is going to eat them alive. And she was right. Dany should have listened to Sansa.

Why in the fuck would or should anybody listen to Sansa???  They keep trying to throw her to the forefront as some political genius and great thinker.  That’s what they keep “telling” us.  Problem is they have never “shown” her becoming those things.  Everyone else gets dumbed down in order to make her look smart.  That shit is just too stupid.  She’s got more strategic battle planning then Jon.  Yeah right.  She’s smarter than skilled blacksmiths (insulating armor).  Give me a break.  Smarter than Littlefinger (though the scripts say she was being duped by him until she went to Bran). Of course they can’t SHOW us that.  So Sansa fans create fanfic that she was fooling Littlefinger the whole time.  Scripts also said she did want to usurp Jon but D&D pussyfooted around with that so Arya looks evil & Sansa the victim.  More bullshit.  She knows Cersei better than Tyrion. Sure whatever.  Much smarter than him too (believable now only because he’s become a complete fool).  Smarter than Dany, who just lost half her troops but Sansa has to be the one to say the troops need rest.  How in the fuck does she know?  She was hiding in the crypts & hasn’t killed shit in 8 seasons.  Why couldn’t a General or someone who’s fought and knows the troops say that?  

Arya sides with Sansa (the selfish, plotting to usurp her closest sibling Jon) and puts Jon in his place about it.  So Jon chooses loyalty to his family over the woman he loves and confides his secret & Sansa immediately breaks his trust.  But she’s the one “loyal to her family & the North...”???  Everyone is calling Jon dumb (for trusting his family) but giving Sansa a pass though that was a snake move.  And stop with the she’s doing it to protect him bullshit.  Her telling Tyrion only puts Jon in more danger.  And if Sansa sits on her ass in Winterfell and everyone else dies & they come with a Sansa & Tyrion or Sansa & Gendry on the Throne then I’ll be extremely pissed and feel like I wasted 8 seasons on some straight bullshit.  I’m almost to the point I don’t care who takes the Throne as long as Tyrion & Sansa both die.  Sansa for the made up shit the show runners keep trying to force us to believe about her & him for the dumb shit he’s been doing to cause Dany’s destruction. And yet he still remains her Hand even with Jorah’s blessing?  Missandei is murdered right in front of Dany (a move that could spark an immediate on site conflict) but somehow Tyrion is allowed to walk back across enemy lines???  This Tyrion & Sansa foolishness has gotten out of hand. D&D don’t know how to write those characters. I pray they’re not the Endgame or this will have turned into a turd to flush down the toilet. 

[MinscS2]

It ultimately doesn't matter what Sansas motives or reasons are, and if her concerns are valid or not.

Instantly turning against someone who just came to save and defend you is an evil act. 

Littlefinger, Cersei and Ramsey would all be so proud of her if they knew...

[Cron]

8 hours ago, martianmister said:

Arya is a heartless killing machine and Sansa is a conspiracy scheming queen, something like a mix of Cersei and Littlefinger. They only care about the north and going to backstab their allies at the first chance. Is that what Martin mean when he said "a time for wolves?"

I don't think Arya is heartless at all, I think she has very strong emotions for her family and Gendry.

In fact, I'm still predicting Arya and Gendry will end the series together (Arya just has one final mission to complete first, that's all.)

Regarding Sansa, she does seem colder, but she is also very heavily traumatized (as are quite a few others on the show, of course)

But still, Dany is NOT the rightful ruler, and the main players know it, including Dany. Dany should have stepped aside in favor of Jon (or at LEAST offered to share the Throne with him in some way), but she didn't do that (Dany would have been wise to give the Starks the North and make Jon the King in the North again, but she didn't).  I don't approve of Sansa breaking her word to Jon (to not tell anyone), but I'm not surprised at all that Sansa did it, and Jon should have known Sansa could not be trusted with such information.

[RhaenysBee]

5 hours ago, ummester said:

I'd argue that by your logic, Sansa has never been compelling.  She was a bratty princess cliche in Season 1 and then passive to the point of annoyance in seasons 3-4 - exactly as she is in the books. The only time I warmed to Sansa as a character was when she was wed to Ramsay. Admittedly it was convoluted plotting that made her and LF look stupid to get her into the situation but once she was in the situation, she seemed to become an actual character that actively took part in her own story, rather than just watching and enduring.

Arya's character broke when she went to Bravos, in the show. Seeing as the books have not resolved her Bravos story who knows how if her character is broken on page also.

As for whether the Stark girls have turned evil in show I agree Arya turned evil in Bravos and is still that way inclined. The Night King was actually the unfortunate victim of an evil little cow.

Sansa just seems to flit between power hungry and not inexplicably - I guess as others note, the show is trying to portray her as a true Stark and doing whatever is loyal to the north. But I always found Sansa the closest child in nature, appearance and upbringing to Cat - so her turning out to be the ultra northern loyalists seems strange, not impossible, just strange.

You are absolutely correct, she never was.  To me, at least, everybody is free to come to their own opinions about her character. There was a very short time in the books when she was at the Vale as Alayne when she wasn’t a spoiled, idiotic brat or a stupid, obnoxious, manipulative shit. 

And you are also correct about Arya, her entire character went down the gutter when she went to braavos to become a cleaner, a theatre enthusiast and then an obnoxious, invincible psychopath. 

[Elayis]

What's disappointing is that they both make good points, Sansa in particular, but they're so bitchy and childish about it that I can't help but dislike them. Why would Dany listen to Sansa when all she does is roll her eyes and scoff at anything she says or does? For being such a "smart player" she's incredibly blind to how others perceive her, and lacks any skill in politics or actually ruling. And Arya's been a psychotic murderess since the end of season 3. 

It doesn't help that time and again they both made horrible, stupid mistakes but were nevertheless rewarded for them, just like every other character in GoT. Failing upwards seems to be the show's motto.

[Kajjo]

14 hours ago, martianmister said:

Arya is a heartless killing machine

No she is not. She is a human being killing for a reason, like vengeance on Polliver, Meryn Trant, the Freys or being executioner for Sansa in the case of Petyr Baelish. 

Arya has empathy and sympathy and saves Lady Crane and does not fulfill her orders to murder. Arya is on her mission to kill Cersei when she learns that Winterfell is once again in Stark's hands and Sansa is alive. She immediately turns to Winterfell, family is priority to her, she want to be home. 

Arya is an accomplished assassin and callous about killing people. Not different from soldiers or police nowadays. She does not kill for the fun of it or without good reason. Arya removes people from her killing list, e.g. Sandor Clegane or Beric Dondarrion. 

Arya lived through a lot of hardship and is physically and emotionally scarred, mostly trusting herself, relying on herself. But her fundamental personality is still that of an adventurous tomboy, of a girl wanting to be a independent.

Arya has heart and even her refusal of Gendry's proposal is well done. With a kiss, with nice words. She likes him, she enjoyed the sex. She is just not "marriage material", she never has been a lady, never wanted to. Her arc is true and believable. 

15 hours ago, martianmister said:

Sansa is a conspiracy scheming queen, something like a mix of Cersei and Littlefinger

Well, breaking her oath to Jon made at a weirwood tree in their own Godswood is bad. It's a turning point for Sansa. We learned in the last episodes that she understood the game, has learned a lot from Baelish, is tough. She's not a little bird anymore. 

I am a bit disappointed by her breaking the oath. Yes, she now seems to tend to be a player, not just Lady of Winterfell. She certainly has learned from Littlefinger, but I don't see so many parallels to Cersei. I still believe she despises Cersei for a lot of reasons and is not as ruthless and hateful.

Cersei hates the people and the people hate Cersei. They showed this quite a few times and emphasized it in E4 (Tyrion/Cersio dialogue). This is not at all true for Sansa. The people respect her and she cares for the people, she wants the best for them. Letting them heal and recuperate for example.

[martianmister]

18 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

Of course they only care about the north. They're absolutely right on not trusting Daenerys. They should conspire and leave Dany to die on her pointless war. The north can defend itself holding moat cailin and taking all boats from white harbour to Pyke.

The north is part of her united kingdom since three centuries ago. And they wouldn't survive without southron help. Their current and past kings already recognized Targaryens as rightful rulers, and Ned wouldn't betray his king as well. They're clearly wrong to defy her authority, scheming behind her and backstabbing her.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

6 minutes ago, martianmister said:

The north is part of her united kingdom since three centuries ago. And they wouldn't survive without southron help. Their current and past kings already recognized Targaryens as rightful rulers, and Ned wouldn't betray his king as well. They're clearly wrong to defy her authority, scheming behind her and backstabbing her.

And why the Targaryens have the rightful claim on all seven kingdoms? Because they conquered them and them Robert conquered them back starting a Baratheon rule. So really no one right now has a RIGHTFUL claim, POWER makes one rightful to rule. Dany right now is not more powerful than Cersei and vice-versa, so who is the rightful king? No one really. 

[martianmister]

3 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

And why the Targaryens have the rightful claim on all seven kingdoms? Because they conquered them and them Robert conquered them back starting a Baratheon rule. So really no one right now has a RIGHTFUL claim, POWER makes one rightful to rule. Dany right now is not more powerful than Cersei and vice-versa, so who is the rightful king? No one really. 

If they only care about power and not loyalty and other sentiments, they're clearly evil.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

1 minute ago, martianmister said:

If they only care about power and not loyalty and other sentiments, they're clearly evil.

Of course they care about other sentiments, look how they treat themselves. They care about the NORTH. They loyalty is to NORTHMEN. Dany is a outsider with a warmongering ideology, she thinks she's the rigthful heir and is going to start another war to get them. Why should they care about her if they already achieve what they wanted? The north is saved and can now prosper, she wants to send the remaining troops to die in a pointless war right now. They should simply defend their home and not try to conquer the other kingdoms with Dany.

[Sheiraseastar23]

 

I'm baffled that people bitch about things that were obvious from the very beginning. The Starks were honorable and  just good guys that had a very bad time playing political games, and this got most of them killed, Rickard, Brandon, Ned, and Robb.

The remaining Stark's character developement was always heading in the opposite direction. They obviously had to learn not to behave the Stark way in order to survive. 

 

Arya' s charcter developement  has been forshadowed and yes even expected, she never wanted to be a lady, trained with bow and sword, became a very skilled assassin, the very thing fans of both book and show wanted her to become.

 

Sansa became the political player everyone wanted her to become, and everyone hoped she would become under LF's guidance.

 

Now that both have achieved this, everyone is bitching about it. Yes, the writing in the show is awful at times, it could have been handled way better, both of their story arcs, but the end product is the same, and still people act like this came out of nowhere. 

 

[Ser Loras The Gay]

7 minutes ago, Sheiraseastar23 said:

Sansa became the political player everyone wanted her to become, and everyone hoped she would become under LF's guidance.

People are saying sansa is a traitor because she doesn't want to be Dany's bitch and want the North independent. I really don't understand people who think that honour is the way to define if people are good or bad. The whole point was to show that REALITY is GREY. There is no inherent good people nor inherent bad people. The only inherent BAD was the army of the dead, that SHOULD've made everyone fight together to fight it. But everyone seems to want good guys vs bad guys.

[Sheiraseastar23]

1 minute ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

People are saying sansa is a traitor because she doesn't want to be Dany's bitch and want the North independent. I really don't understand people who think that honour is the way to define if people are good or bad. The whole point was to show that REALITY is GREY. There is no inherent good people nor inherent bad people. The only inherent BAD was the army of the dead, that SHOULD've made everyone fight together to fight it. But everyone seems to want good guys vs bad guys.

People expected the remaining Starks to be honorable, stupid pushovers like Ned was, that Jon still is to an extent?!

Well they have not been paying attention, this story was always heading in the other direction, especialy for the two Stark girls that have been through a lot of bad stuff through the years, and they have not met alot of good people on their journey, why should they trust Dany from the get go? If traumatic experiences teach you something, it's to be cautious and suspicious of other people's motives. As it turns out, they are right not to, because she is going batshit.

[nborders]

They’re downplaying Arya being a Faceless (Wo)man. She could walk in to the Red keep and kill Ceresi just as easily as she killed Walder Frey. And then do the same to Dany after that, if necessary.