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Bran the Shipper

Game of Thrones, A Tragedy

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2 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Of course, I just used it as quote and wanted to express my own opinion about "The Song of Ice and Fire". 

Of course.

Is it that bad, really? And is it so bad compared to what in a real medieval world would happen under such circumstances to such people as those involved?

Sansa and Arya, for example, lived through gross hardships and in our real world many children were broken after war time and many young soldiers return as traumatised veterans. What should we expect? What would you realistically prefer these girls to be like?

I believe the bittersweet ending is all about hope -- for a new generation, for Westeros as a whole continent with its many different people. The Long Night was avoided, the winter will end, spring will come, peaceful times might lie ahead. That is sweet. The bitter thing will be that our protagonists will have suffered a lot and some have died and overall they personally might not all be happy.

But there will be hope for the future, "for those after us, and those after them." (Jon Snow in E4).

What hope?  Why?  So the moral of the story is life is terrible but while you will probably die, you might live, but you will be broken and most of your loved ones will also die?  Where is there a reason to hope for the future, when this post script to the WW story is telling us again, that humans are awful and petty. The scheming started as soon as the NK fell to the ground.  

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Real life is so boring and tragic, that I don't need a TV-show to tell me how boring and tragic life is. 

Tyvm.

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1 minute ago, MinscS2 said:

Real life is so boring and tragic, that I don't need a TV-show to tell me how boring and tragic life is. 

Tyvm.

That is a very sad outlook on life...

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3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

So the moral of the story is life is terrible but while you will probably die, you might live, but you will be broken and most of your loved ones will also die? 

Well, we don't know how the story ends so I advise everyone to wait two more weeks. Then we can discuss properly. As of yet we can only speculate.

But yes, the moral could be (1) many different people working together successfully to defend against a common enemy, (2) after defeating the common enemy there is not just happy sunshine in real life, (3) playing the Game of Thrones you either win or die.

The moral can be, of course, that war, battles, and greed for power brings hardship to everyone. That would be a very realistic moral. Intrigues usually do not pay off in the long run. Mostly everyone suffers.

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I don't think it will end all that bitter, as it seems now after episode 4.

Pretty sure that Arya won't be heading back to Winterfell after KL, like she herself said, but she will be going to Storms End. I'm predicting the Hound will die protecting her, and make a speech while dying, how she should not choose a lonesome and bitter life like he did, and she will ulitmatively reconsider Gendrys offer.

Sandor knows about those two, made clear in that Winterfell celebration scene between him and Gendry, and I'm pretty sure he thinks he is a good lad, worthy of Arya.

I'm pretty sure Sansa is gonna have sort of a happy ending too, as is Tyrion, maybe even together.

Bran's ending is gonna be bitter, but so is his whole existance at this point, don't see much room for this changing dramaticaly. Maybe another NK is born, and he has a purpose yet again.

Jaime is gonna die for sure, so bitter for him and Brienne.

Sam already got a happy ending, as did Tormund and Ghost sort of. 

Now Dany and Jon I'm unsure of. If Dany dies, regardless of Jon being the one who kills her or not, I can't see a happy ending for him after that. If there is another NK at the end of the series he could rebuild the wall and reasamble the Night's watch i guess, don't see him being and a king and being happy about it.

If Jon dies and Dany lives, I don't see much of a happy ending for her either, unless she is pregnant. But I don't think that a pregnancy is very likely at this point anymore. There will be noone left of her nearest and dearest, and I'm sure that the damned Iron throne and sitting upon it won't fullfill her expectations in the end.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Sheiraseastar23 said:

I'm predicting the Hound will die protecting her, and make a speech while dying, how she should not choose a lonesome and bitter life like he did, and she will ulitmatively reconsider Gendrys offer.

Well, such a speech would be great, because the Hound messed up his own life with bitterness and unfulfilled vengeance, instead of seeking a good life.

However, Arya as "Lady of Someone-else" is not a good ending and just does not fit. The wanted to be "Lord of Something" on her own. I sincerely hope that the series will somehow end well and in-character for Arya.

13 minutes ago, Sheiraseastar23 said:

I'm pretty sure Sansa is gonna have sort of a happy ending too, as is Tyrion, maybe even together.

I hope so and I expect so, yes.

13 minutes ago, Sheiraseastar23 said:

Sam already got a happy ending, as did Tormund and Ghost sort of. 

Yep. That were farewells and nicely done so. Maybe we will see Samwell as narrator of the whole story, giving it the name "A Song of Ice and Fire" as he once told the grand maester to select a "more poetic title" for his work.

14 minutes ago, Sheiraseastar23 said:

Now Dany and Jon I'm unsure of

Same for me.

In the moment I see Daenerys flip to mad, after witnessing die beheading of Missandei. She might attack with fire, burn hundreds, fail to conquer and lose supporters. She might die.

The "Song of Ice and Fire" is Jon's, I reckon. Doesn't mean he survives. But he could.

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1 hour ago, A Time for Starks said:

<snip>

Having said that, I'm not sure what everyone expected.  This is Game of Thrones we're all watching.  The book/show that brought you Ned's beheading, the Red Wedding, the list goes on.  As Ramsay pointed out (and someone else in the thread already) "if you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." <snip>

First, there's really no reason to extrapolate Ramsay's line to the story. I wish people would stop quoting it as a part of this discussion. It proves nothing.

Second, since you brought up the books, consider this:

There are a lot of signs in the books setting up something not that different from a traditional happy ending, almost fairy-tale style where Dany and Jon meet, fall in love, defeat the Others, and take the throne: maybe one of them dies heroically, but there will be a child to remember that one by. And one way to reconcile that with Ned's death/Red Wedding/etc. is that Martin did those things precisely to set us up for the happy ending being the surprise plot twist. It's just a theory, but IMO a quite feasible one: a surprise happy ending has a helluva lot more kick than a standard, paint-by-numbers happy ending.

Re the books, that is. Don't see it coming in the TV show. About the only thing about this mess that gives me heart is that there is so much that is so outlandish that I find it very easy to believe that this is not spoiling the books, after all, which has been a big fear of mine for a long time. If the books ever get written, I'm quite confident that the latter books will be very different from the swill of a plot we've seen on the show from season 5 on.

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2 hours ago, ananunes said:

This is not comparable to LotR, no main character died, Aragorn ended up with Arwen, Legolas was alive, the dwarves were all alive, all of the hobbits survived...The only thing not sweet about LoR ending was the fact that Frodo never got to live a normal life again. Even the younger brother of Boromir got to marry the pretty lady Eowyn... Game of Thrones is as realitylike as a show with white walkers and dragons can be. It portraits human nature in it's darkest, so no happy endings, as sure as the sun sets in the west and rises in the east. 

Yes., You are right in the sense that this is not comparable to the movie LOTR. LOTR is a masterpiece of filmmaking, while GOT is Dexter, TWD, Lost levels of a disappointment/mess. A major character dying doesn't automatically make the story good fyi.

I don't mind that you're blindly defending this mess but to take shots at arguably the greatest trilogy we have ever seen ? Come on now.

And fyi, The Long Night had quite the happy ending. And that was the biggest threat mankind has ever seen. The rest doesn't really matter anymore.

 

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24 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

The "Song of Ice and Fire" is Jon's, I reckon. Doesn't mean he survives. But he could.

Doubt this will ever get cleared up, especially if both die. 

In S7, Melisandre stated that she had "brought Ice and Fire together", referring to both Jon and Daenerys.

Ultimately, bringing them together was important for some reason (considering that lots of fans and even some characters consider Daenerys' contribution in the War for the Dawn as "meaningless", there must be something more to it), and for all of her many mistakes and misdeeds, Melisandre was correct about "everything" in the end.
 

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3 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Jon: Goes North to reform the NW after Cersei is defeated.  Mostly bitter.

Dany: Dead.  All bitter.

Tyrion:  looks like he gets the happiest ending.

Interesting, I'd never thought about Jon taking the Black as a way out of the duty to his bloodline, but that could potentially solve his problem with Dany.  I wonder if she would even be the one to suggest it?

Unless she's dead, in which case, I think Jon takes the Black anyhow, and leaves Tyrion to rule over a broken wheel and to try and reform the system.

That would be bittersweet indeed.

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2 minutes ago, olibar said:

Jon takes the Black

There is no Night's Watch anymore. What are you talking about?

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33 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

In S7, Melisandre stated that she had "brought Ice and Fire together", referring to both Jon and Daenerys.

That's true. 

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While I think the ending will feel tragic there will be some bright spots (though they will be mostly relegated to side characters). 

Tormund and Ghost for instance will run off and have some crazy adventures together north of the Wall. 

Sam and Gilly are going to raise a family together. 

Dany has ensured that the Dothraki and Iron Born give up their raiding lifestyle.  Sure some small bands might try to go back to that, but for the most part I feel like that is done.  She also broke the chains in Slaver's Bay, and again while slavery will creep back in part, they have tasted freedom and it will never go back to the way it was.

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2 hours ago, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

I could have not outvthis better..double standards prevail. I am so disappointed as I felt jon and dany would rise above the cess pit of political intrigue and build a better  more democratic fairer society. I just can't believe the way it is heading. There is no happiness or bitter sweet for any of the main characters. I really pissed off with it. You have put is so well.

Both Dany and Jon are happy to contiune with the current system. Jon became King in the North and didnt change anything and Dany has ruled over parts of Essos as a Queen using a system which she says she want's to abolish in Westeros. Dany is also currently fighting a war to re-take her family's throne. There was no way either of them were going to do anything other than continue the feudal system Westeros has had for thousands of years.

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50 minutes ago, Gianna Dorenberg said:

Yes., You are right in the sense that this is not comparable to the movie LOTR. LOTR is a masterpiece of filmmaking, while GOT is Dexter, TWD, Lost levels of a disappointment/mess.

Oh come on. Lord of the Rings are good films but they are riddled with plot holes, convenient rescues, dialogue that clunked as bad as "and my axe", "no one tosses a dwarf", fan servicing like the elves turning up to Helmsdeep and an elf surfing down stairs and elephants shooting arrows... 

People are whipping themselves into a frenzy over the past couple of episodes. 

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13 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

There is no Night's Watch anymore. What are you talking about?

I'm talking about that because Dany is so worried about Jon's claim to the throne, it would be completely in his character to step up and say "I take the Black" as a way to end his claim, just like his Uncle(?) did the generation before.  And what a bittersweet ending to his character to go from Bastard to King but then to give it all up.  Perhaps doing so would even convince Dany to destroy the throne and actually break the wheel like she said she would.  

He'd then head north and never be heard from again.

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3 hours ago, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

I am so disappointed as I felt jon and dany would rise above the cess pit of political intrigue and build a better  more democratic fairer society.

Are you kidding? There can be no democracy. The next stage of development after feudalism is absolute monarchy. Learn the history.

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Yeah, even Joffrey wanted to instate absolute monarchy.
Perhaps he was onto something...

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16 hours ago, Bran the Shipper said:

I've noticed a trend with this story for a while but it took this episode for me to cement it.  Now I could still be wrong, there are two episodes left after all.  But I'm fairly certain about one thing now, that bittersweet ending we were promised.  That was a lie.

Game of Thrones, and likely A Song of Ice and Fire, is a tragedy.  And as such it follows a tragic logic.  Think about all the death and suffering throughout this series.  They all were born, at least in part, by the tragic flaws of those who suffered them.  Ned died because his naive sense of honor and his love for his family blinded him.  Robb lost his life because he broke his vows and was too lenient at times and too harsh at other times.  Joffery was so insufferable that Olenna plotted to kill him to spare Margaery from marrying him.  The list goes on.

Now what does this mean and why did this episode convince me?  This past episode proved to me that, for the most part, our heroes haven't gotten stronger for what they have been through, they have been broken by it. 

Sansa hasn't become a savvy player of the game determined to use its rules to beat those who would abuse others, as I had originally expected her to do.  Instead she has become just like Littlefinger, grasping at power with every breath.  Always positioning herself to be invaluable to those she could use and undermining all those who stand in the way of more power.

Arya may not have become no one but she is still on the path to do so.  She rejects every chance at happiness that finds her.  She has doubled down on her list and decided that she has no place in Winterfell.  This will not make her happy, it will make her dead inside.  Arya in name only.

Bran has lost himself and he knows it.  He even admits to Tyrion that his life is not one to envy. 

Jon was already killed.  But he was brought back to fight against the army of the dead, but they're gone now.  Luckily he had found Dany who made him want to live again.  But now that is all falling apart around him.  And he is partly to blame.  Just like with Ygritte, he has drawn the bow that will fire the arrow which will kill the woman he loves (symbolically speaking of course).

Which brings me to Daenerys.  I am at the moment convinced that she is the true heroine of Game of Thrones, the Prince that was Promised, if you will.  And hers is an arc most tragic.  She could have been a force for good in this world, a light to shine against the darkness.  But the world fought her at every turn and the people who could have her back, die or betray her.  Whenever she tries to pursue a peaceful option it gets spat back into her face, but when she fights with fire and blood those around her believe her mad.  Ultimately she will be killed by the schemes that Jon helped to ignite by telling Sansa about his claim.  And while she will leave the world better than she found it, it will not be enough to truly save the people as she hoped.  The wheel she wanted to break will remain.

I think this is why this past episode has left a sour taste in a lot of people's mouth.  It confirms that the show will not have a happy ending.  None of the characters remaining are likeable or they are likely to die or be miserable.  However, for my part at least, acknowledging that the show is a tragedy has made me appreciate it for what it is.  But then I do love a good tragedy and they are so rare to find. 

I hope by sharing my ramblings I can both spark discussion and allow others who were similarly disappointed in the direction the series has been going, find some enjoyment in it.

 

GRRM said the books would have a "bittersweet" ending; which, at least to me, promises some sweet along with the bitter.

Perhaps the sweet will be Sam marrying Gilly, taking effective lordship of House Tarly and raising their kids, having a good and happy life and writing down the Song of Ice and Fire.  Maybe that will be the sweetest ending that we get.

I'm saddened by the direction that the writers and directors have taken the Stark girls:  Sansa reverts to being a sneaky tattletale; which was forgivable (in my opinion) when she was a child who did not understand the consequences of her actions but is less forgivable when she is a young woman who does understand the dangerous situation and that she is playing with fire and her brother's life is the prize of the game (or its forfeit).  Arya decides, rather peculiarly, shortly after being in the We Are Family/Last of the Starks camp, that she is leaving Winterfell on a mysterious mission in the South and will not return (the mysterious mission in the South is probably to avenge the killing of Lady and Mycah by killing Cersei).  So the mission is understandable, but why does Arya say she will not return to Winterfell?  You are right that she has rejected chances for happiness - she doesn't want Gendry's love, at least not as his wife; and suddenly she does not want to hang out with the other last Starks.  What will Arya do with the rest of her life if she survives her mission of vengeance?  Become an assassin-for-hire?  Return to Braavos and finish her Faceless Man training (or kill Jaquen Ha'quar and take over the cult)?  Thinking of that brave, forthright child Arya once was, it's sad to think of the bleakness of her life right now.  She's been scarred perhaps beyond repair.  

It would not surprise me if Sansa became Queen in the North, or the Warden of the North (if the North does return to the Seven Kingdoms).  I am disappointed in her conduct this past episode; but the North, at the moment, is sentimental about the Stark family; and if Jon does not live to claim the North as king or warden, that leaves only Bran, who does not want to be bothered, Arya, who is apparently rejecting her family ties, and Sansa, who most of the surviving Northern lords and some smallfolk will remember as the Lady of Winterfell who kept them fed (at least for a year, hopefully more).  I do think that Sansa is better qualified to rule the North than either Bran or Arya; and I frankly doubt that Jon will return (even if he lives), so Sansa would be the logical choice especially if there is ever going to be a new generation of Starks.  I cannot see Tyrion and Sansa becoming King and Queen of Westeros; I think Sansa fears and dislikes the South and will continue to do so even after Cersei's death.  

As for poor Daenerys; I believe she'll perish, probably doing something noble and heroic.  She might have a baby before that happens; though I don't see how they'll have the time to write in a successful pregnancy.  I do not see Jon and Daenerys married and ruling Westeros, or anywhere.  Drogon will probably die too, sadly. 

I hope at least that Westeros will get normal seasons after the magic goes away.  No more wights or walkers or night's king, please.

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