If Dany becomes mad, it will cement the idea that all westerosi queens in their own right are unworthy.

[Targaryen Peas]

1 minute ago, Nami said:

Do we need to have empowered independent wahman in a medieval fantasy setting? There are a million shows set in modern days with that. It's the way it is, if you can't handle, move on. I accept it for what it is, understanding the context, and don't feel bothered AT ALL.

I don't care at all, I prefer my heroes men actually. I was reacting objectively to the statement. 

 

[Nami]

Just now, Targaryen Peas said:

I don't care at all, I prefer my heroes men actually. I was reacting objectively to the statement. 

 

Sorry, but that's just SJW illogical nitpicking.

[Targaryen Peas]

15 minutes ago, Nami said:

Sorry, but that's just SJW illogical nitpicking.

Lol what. I don't understand what's happening here. As you can see my account has barely 20 messages. Probably joined the forum after all the shit in the show. Don't understand that SJW.

I didn't create this topic, was only giving my point of view. Because fuck feminist or whatever. But at the end of the day, the way the show is handling the queens, in this last season particularly is bad. Stripping them from some poer they got, illogicaly. 

To hell with Cersei. But I really like Daenerys riding dragons, and I find her downfall very badly written. So yes, in that way, you can say it is some "sexism". 

[Hodor the Articulate]

Why is it that interpretation of themes suddenly becomes unimportant when it comes to discussions about sexism or racism, etc? Most people seem to understand that a Mad Queen Dany would be an antagonist that would need to be defeated in the end, because the message of the story cannot be that volatile and unjust person makes a good ruler. So why is it so hard to see that having every female character who has sought power, depicted as mad or petty or "unfit" to rule in some other way, sends an uncomfortable message?

43 minutes ago, Nami said:

Do we need to have empowered independent wahman in a medieval fantasy setting? There are a million shows set in modern days with that. It's the way it is, if you can't handle, move on. I accept it for what it is, understanding the context, and don't feel bothered AT ALL.

But the story allows for empowered independent women. Dany, if she succeeds, will have formal power in her own right. If either GRRM or D&D didn't want this possibility, they shouldn't have had a character like Dany in the first place.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

As someone else already pointed it out middle age WAS sexist. That's not turning around this fact, if GRRM wanted to depict how the middle ages worked he HAD to make it sexist and patriarchal, doing the opposite or trying to make the middle ages more progressive is just wrong. You have to show things as they were and US would be the ones to point out how unjust this system really is. I don't really understand why anyone is contesting Cersei claim to the throne (but I don't think the showrunners really care about rightful sucession anymore).

[Kajjo]

2 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

if GRRM wanted to depict how the middle ages worked he HAD to make it sexist and patriarchal, doing the opposite or trying to make the middle ages more progressive is just wrong.

Absolutely. Correct.

3 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

You have to show things as they were and US would be the ones to point out how unjust this system really is

Right. And it is.

3 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

I don't really understand why anyone is contesting Cersei claim to the throne

She doesn't have any claim. She usurped it because of the void left after Tommen's suicide. She has the military and King's Guard on her side and that's it. This is how many dictators or new monarchs do it.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

2 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

She doesn't have any claim. She usurped it because of the void left after Tommen's suicide. She has the military and King's Guard on her side and that's it. This is how many dictators or new monarchs do it.

What i'm complaning is how unbeliavible the whole situation is really. What army? Only the lannister army and a FEW other houses really are supporting Cersei. I don't understand how a 3° and independent faction composed of the smaller houses (we have like 100+ houses in the books) simply join forces and say "fuck you" to Cersei and her usurpation. We know that many of those houses are Targ loyalists and didn't support Robert Baratheon when he rebelled, so where are they? The showrunners don't have any idea on how to use the world they built for 5 seasons with perfection. Now the only houses that matter are, Martells (with a unknown prince), Targaryens, Lannisters and Royce(?). 

[Kajjo]

1 minute ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

and say "fuck you" to Cersei and her usurpation

They would have to join forces and fight a war against the Lannister army which at that point is quite strong and without difficulty defeats Highgarden.

No one dares to oppose Cersei and her army at that point. Simply as that. Many people just live with her and mind their own business. Not a bad strategy in a time of much to many wars anyway. Many of them returned from the "war of the five kings" and are glad to be home.

3 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

The showrunners don't have any idea on how to use the world they built for 5 seasons with perfection. Now the only houses that matter are, Martells (with a unknown prince), Targaryens, Lannisters and Royce(?)

Hm, they simply focus on the main threat from the North. That makes sense. They cannot and don't have to show every single house and its fate.

I really think you moan to much about the show. Yes, not everything is entirely consistent and GRRM should have written more for the show. But the show is entertaining nonetheless.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

2 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Hm, they simply focus on the main threat from the North. That makes sense. They cannot and don't have to show every single house and its fate.

I really think you moan to much about the show. Yes, not everything is entirely consistent and GRRM should have written more for the show. But the show is entertaining nonetheless.

Consider this, at season 3 on the red wedding, who fucked over the Stark army? The combining forces of the Frey, Bolton and other small houses from the north at the time. If the showrunners really only wanted to focus on the BIG threats we wouldn't have one of the best scenes from the entire show. Imagine if Cersei proposes just a meeting with all other smaller houses to seek their support, and with a good speech about Dany being a outsider who wants to fuck everyone over gathers a bigger army? That would be awesome, but, we don't have this scene, we only see a conversation with Jaime and Randyll Tarly. That's what I'm proposing and complaning you don't need to show each house POV, but you can insert them on the show without much trouble, just one 10 minute scene with all of them gathered and exposing their concerns and reasonings. We had that in the show before on the scenes where people would complain with the late king Robert and Joffrey. The showrunners just don't care. And most people don't care. I do.

[Kajjo]

4 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

If the showrunners really only wanted to focus on the BIG threats

Not at season 3, not even in the beginning of 7, but in the last episodes of 7 and all of 8 yet. 

4 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

at season 3 on the red wedding, who fucked over the Stark army? The combining forces of the Frey, Bolton and other small houses from the north at the time.

We agree that back then the story was written by GRRM and much better and more complex.

5 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

That's what I'm proposing and complaning you don't need to show each house POV, but you can insert them on the show without much trouble

I agree. I would have like that very much, too.

 

[Ilissa]

2 hours ago, Targaryen Peas said:

The thing is, Europe had a religion that said woman can't rule.

And what is this religion, I wonder?

[martianmister]

9 minutes ago, Ilissa said:

And what is this religion, I wonder?

Germanic paganism?

[AlaerysTargaryen]

Ok, did I wake up to my topic being loopsided to a feminism vs patriarchal reality discussion. First of all despite being a woman I'm not a feminist, and second of all I'm aware of the historical equivalent of medieval society. I know my history. And doesn't any of you remember that rhere were numerous English bqueens in their own right, maybe the most equivalent to Dany being Elizabeth the I. Westeros in all 300 years have rejected female leadership and that is realistic, but as many of you say show Cersei has been queen for years without any consequence, despite being a hated ruler that killed many noble people. Daenerys has proven to be a more effective ruler, albeit with a black and white sense of justice. She has done questionable decisions but she isn mars because she burned or crucified her enemies isnyead of "honorably beheading them". She has never sacificed directly innocent people. Tywin Lannister distroyed a house with all its children and peasants, and nobody says shit that he is mad. He murdered the Starks in the Red wedding because what is the point of killing a few in a dinner isnteqd of thousands in rhe battledield as he says. You still are going to kill them. So is Dany mad because she has to storm the capital, because 10 k innocent people wil die in the Red Keep. Didn't Aegon the conqueror burned a lot of his enemies? And sti he is loved and remembered as a good king. A hero. Warfare is Warfare. What are her options? Leave KL bee and Cersei on the throne so no one will die? How else are you supossed to capture a city. Tywin sacked KL endinf Robert Rebellion, Im pretty sure plenty of people died and here we are with his daughter being queen. 

So I stand my ground. If Dany is characterised mad, because she storms a city during war, and loses her crwon beacuse of it and Jon will become a reluctant king as a better option, it will sexist. It really is all cocks in the end as Varys puts it. If this is show only event shame on D&D, and if George is going to have Dany succumb to her volatile tendencies and have her become mad as well, Im not sure I want ro read it. It will be repetitive, just as Rhaenyra lost her claim ans died, excluding are future female Tarf rulers. It will be Mad Quenn 2.0 after Cersei, and Dany despire of all ending like her father and brother. If she has to die, as honestly thought she would, have her go in a noble way, in a sacrifice for her people or her love or even in childbirth. Dany a crazy queen and Jon, a last minute secret heir reveiled to  world would be a stupid unsatisfying ending. And honestly as they developed this arc in the show, how in hell people are going to belive that a bastard is a Targaryen and should be king? Rhaegal is gone, no one else in Westeros saw him riding it. Bran and Sam are not good evidence. I don't know what else to think, I never saw asoiaf ending in such a way that anyone escapes their past and the weight of history.

[Wik]

8 hours ago, AlaerysTargaryen said:

Rhaenyra Targaryen, stupid and mad for wanting to inherit her birthright and her father legacy. 

 

Rhaenys, the queen that never was. Well there wer better "men".  

Cersei , she deserves everything that's coming for her. And how come Dany will be the Mad quenn if Cersei already is. 

 

Daenerys Targaryen. Well thanks to the gods that there was a last minute secret Targ baby that doesnt want the throne, cause she is mad, for accepting that there will be inoccents dying in common warfare.   

 

Isn't that incedibly sexist, that there always is a better job. Westeros will never accept a Queen after such a record. The only revered queen is Alyssane, a good consort queen and wife capable of producing children. Will this  be the note that asoaif ends? Jon is a better ruler cause he has a dick?

I think Jon is a likely a better ruler because he isn't prone to insanity and willingly burning his subjects alive and he certainly seems more measured than Dany. I don't think that has anything to do with having a dick or not. I think its the heritage. 

If you think the female arcs in ASOIAF are bad, go read Bakker's series....dear lord. 

[btfu806]

12 minutes ago, AlaerysTargaryen said:

Ok, did I wake up to my topic being loopsided to a feminism vs patriarchal reality discussion. First of all despite being a woman I'm not a feminist, and second of all I'm aware of the historical equivalent of medieval society. I know my history. And doesn't any of you remember that rhere were numerous English bqueens in their own right, maybe the most equivalent to Dany being Elizabeth the I. Westeros in all 300 years have rejected female leadership and that is realistic, but as many of you say show Cersei has been queen for years without any consequence, despite being a hated ruler that killed many noble people. Daenerys has proven to be a more effective ruler, albeit with a black and white sense of justice. She has done questionable decisions but she isn mars because she burned or crucified her enemies isnyead of "honorably beheading them". She has never sacificed directly innocent people. Tywin Lannister distroyed a house with all its children and peasants, and nobody says shit that he is mad. He murdered the Starks in the Red wedding because what is the point of killing a few in a dinner isnteqd of thousands in rhe battledield as he says. You still are going to kill them. So is Dany mad because she has to storm the capital, because 10 k innocent people wil die in the Red Keep. Didn't Aegon the conqueror burned a lot of his enemies? And sti he is loved and remembered as a good king. A hero. Warfare is Warfare. What are her options? Leave KL bee and Cersei on the throne so no one will die? How else are you supossed to capture a city. Tywin sacked KL endinf Robert Rebellion, Im pretty sure plenty of people died and here we are with his daughter being queen. 

So I stand my ground. If Dany is characterised mad, because she storms a city during war, and loses her crwon beacuse of it and Jon will become a reluctant king as a better option, it will sexist. It really is all cocks in the end as Varys puts it. If this is show only event shame on D&D, and if George is going to have Dany succumb to her volatile tendencies and have her become mad as well, Im not sure I want ro read it. It will be repetitive, just as Rhaenyra lost her claim ans died, excluding are future female Tarf rulers. It will be Mad Quenn 2.0 after Cersei, and Dany despire of all ending like her father and brother. If she has to die, as honestly thought she would, have her go in a noble way, in a sacrifice for her people or her love or even in childbirth. Dany a crazy queen and Jon, a last minute secret heir reveiled to  world would be a stupid unsatisfying ending. And honestly as they developed this arc in the show, how in hell people are going to belive that a bastard is a Targaryen and should be king? Rhaegal is gone, no one else in Westeros saw him riding it. Bran and Sam are not good evidence. I don't know what else to think, I never saw asoiaf ending in such a way that anyone escapes their past and the weight of history.

I agree with you a bit about the bold section. Don't get me wrong, I am not a Dany fan by any stretch of the imagination and always saw her going the "mad" route in the books, but you know, it actually making more sense and being subtle.... Maybe it's more of an inner struggle and she redeems herself in the end... I don't know. I think there are a lot of interesting routes you can go down with the mad thing and not have it just be a generic, she is now crazy for reasons.

But as far as what the show has currently shown us, she is not mad (in my opinion). She is justifiably angry and if she kills a lot of people in this war coming up, still not mad. Just doing what people do in wars...

Now, if this show realllly wanted to go down the mad route they better in the next episode or two have her randomly offing people after the war and talking to herself or something. I mean, if you really want to copy the Mad King, go all the way, no half measures.

My biggest worry at this point is the show has no time to do this "mad routine" any justice, it's going to be rushed and not make a lot of sense.

So, in the end, I don't know if it's sexism or incompetence on the writers part. I like to try to attribute people's bad actions (or writing in this case) to stupidity rather than malice, but maybe I give people too much slack haha.

 

[AlaerysTargaryen]

3 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

I agree with you a bit about the bold section. Don't get me wrong, I am not a Dany fan by any stretch of the imagination and always saw her going the "mad" route in the books, but you know, it actually making more sense and being subtle.... Maybe it's more of an inner struggle and she redeems herself in the end... I don't know. I think there are a lot of interesting routes you can go down with the mad thing and not have it just be a generic, she is now crazy for reasons.

But as far as what the show has currently shown us, she is not mad (in my opinion). She is justifiably angry and if she kills a lot of people in this war coming up, still not mad. Just doing what people do in wars...

Now, if this show realllly wanted to go down the mad route they better in the next episode or two have her randomly offing people after the war and talking to herself or something. I mean, if you really want to copy the Mad King, go all the way, no half measures.

My biggest worry at this point is the show has no time to do this "mad routine" any justice, it's going to be rushed and not make a lot of sense.

So, in the end, I don't know if it's sexism or incompetence on the writers part. I like to try to attribute people's bad actions (or writing in this case) to stupidity rather than malice, but maybe I give people too much slack haha.

 

Exactly! It is very sudden and she hasn't done anything that other haven't done in war. If they make her that just by the way of laying waste to the Red Keep it will be pure trash and bas writing and a irrational decision on the shows part. I can see the majority of viewers going up in flames of rage. This needed an extra season or change her ending in the show in to a more believable undoing considering the time constraints.

[btfu806]

1 minute ago, AlaerysTargaryen said:

Exactly! It is very sudden and she hasn't done anything that other haven't done in war. If they make her that just by the way of laying waste to the Red Keep it will be pure trash and bas writing and a irrational decision on the shows part. I can see the majority of viewers going up in flames of rage. This needed an extra season or change her ending in the show in to a more believable undoing considering the time constraints.

They really should have had this season be a bit longer. I really believed we were going to get 6 episodes at like 90ish minutes. I thought, OK, that is enough time to wrap up things. But the first two being less than an hour and the rest around 80. I was worried after I heard that, that there would be too much rushing. So far, that seems to be the case.

I think we are already seeing viewers raging. I look on reddit/twitter and people are not happy so far. IMDB and Rotten Tomatoes scores for this past episode are really low (for Game of Thrones that is). I don't think it will get much better. Around the watercooler at work, everyone I know is a Dany fan (as I stated I am not, so I try to keep my mouth shut about it). But after last episode they are really upset with her as a character and I don't think it will get better.

So I think you're right about the majority of viewers going up in flames of rage. It's going to get ugly fast unless the ending is very abrupt and she changes paths quick. Which will be another, but different, issue ha.

 

[Cas Stark]

If Dany is going to fall, they really needed 10 episodes so they could do some believable time jumps, with the extra long episodes they're not progressing the timeline much and if she is to go crazy and be destroyed we would need to see this decline happening over many months for it to be believable.

[AlaerysTargaryen]

8 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

look on reddit/twitter and people are not happy so far.

Yep I'm on reddit as well and everyone losing their shit, even r/gameofthrones. r/asoaif is practically on suicide watch. Plenty people who aren't Dany fans acknowledge the fact that this is wrong and sudden and horrible ending. I actually read the leaks in the freefolk subreddit and can't belive how are going to end the arcs of the 3 most popular characters, Dany Jon and Tyrion. People will murder D&D :o. Who is going to buy their blurays and merch? A shitstorm is coming.

 

[Quillon]

3 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

What i'm complaning is how unbeliavible the whole situation is really. What army? Only the lannister army and a FEW other houses really are supporting Cersei. I don't understand how a 3° and independent faction composed of the smaller houses (we have like 100+ houses in the books) simply join forces and say "fuck you" to Cersei and her usurpation. We know that many of those houses are Targ loyalists and didn't support Robert Baratheon when he rebelled, so where are they? The showrunners don't have any idea on how to use the world they built for 5 seasons with perfection. Now the only houses that matter are, Martells (with a unknown prince), Targaryens, Lannisters and Royce(?). 

Tbh its the single most idiotic thing they did in their fanfic after they run out of books. Cercei shoulda been beheaded and feeded to the crows long ago. But I don't see how this idiotic thing they did connects with this idiotic thread...maybe in "bad writing" they do tho.