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AlaerysTargaryen

If Dany becomes mad, it will cement the idea that all westerosi queens in their own right are unworthy.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Wildling Queen said:

True, but the Dothraki and the Unsullied and a lot of the people she held power over have followed her all the way to Westeros. Apparently, a whole lot of them think she's pretty awesome.

I think a large portion of the fan base myself included think she's awesome. The blame can be put squarely at the show writers feet. You can argue that both Dany & Jon suffer from the same problem. Jon has been portrayed on the show as an impulsive, incompetent nitwit which is far from who he is in the books where he is very much the talented battle commander much the same as Robb was but much more consciencious and stoic in his demeanor which is naturally a catalyst for readers to want to elevate him to the highest rank but the show removed that and in its stead left us with a sexist stereotype of women and men aswell.

Edited by darksellsword

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Dragons 7th Eye said:

I disagree. You seem to see what you want to see. Cersei has had very few things blowing up in her face let alone "always". She has been cold and ruthless and she has got the job done. Lately she came from an impossible situation after the loot train to a place where D&D will come up with something utterly stupid again to save her enemies. I would only slightly raise my eyebrows at Sheepstealer coming from the Sun in the next episode.

Shoehorning Cersei into a feminist ideal of a held back woman is wrong, not only because it is factually wrong but it is also wrong morally - because it diminishes the accomplishments of a woman. And for what? To make a point. Much like a good portion of fourth wave feminism ideas and paradigms that don't stand up to any basic scrutiny, because they are based on ideas and desires rather than research and facts.

I see what I see because all have our own perceptions of art. Sure, she's had some accomplishments. She's also had some massive failures. Where were all of you who are saying nothing ever blew up in her face considering the whole scheme she had in going to the Sparrow to get Loras and Margaery thrown into prison and ended up in prison herself (which was out of JEALOUSY, and pettiness), which then killed her only surviving son?

By the way, there's no concrete concept of a fourth wave of feminism, and what exists of it has no relation to what I'm saying. We're really still working on the third wave, thanks.

Edited by Wildling Queen

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4 minutes ago, darksellsword said:

I think a large portion of the fan base myself included think she's awesome. The blame can be put squarely at the show writers feet. You can argue that both Dan & Jon suffer from the same problem. Jon has been portrayed on the show as an impulsive, incompetent nitwit which is far from who he is in the books where he is very much the talented battle commander much the same as Robb was but much more consciencious and stoic in his demeanor which is naturally a catalyst for readers to want to elevate him to the highest rank but the show removed that and in its stead left us with a sexist stereotype of women and men aswell.

I agree. I think GRRM's text is fantastic. The way it's being handled in the show is problematic.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Wildling Queen said:

I see what I see because all have our own perceptions of art. Sure, she's had some accomplishments. She's also had some massive failures. Where were all of you who are saying nothing ever blew up in her face considering the whole scheme she had in going to the Sparrow to get Loras and Margaery thrown into prison and ended up in prison herself (which was out of JEALOUSY, and pettiness), which then killed her only surviving son?

By the way, there's no concrete concept of a fourth wave of feminism, and what exists of it has no relation to what I'm saying. We're really still working on the third wave, thanks.

The failure you mention ended in her getting the crown. With your own definition earlier regarding Yara and Sansa, that is the true power that she gained so there is no way around the fact that with your own definitions, she ended up once more taking a bad situation and making something out of it.

Fourth wave feminism often called intersectional feminism seems to be pretty predominant here in Europe. I am not versed enough in it to make a factual statement, but I understand it started in the Universities on that side of the Atlantic. It is the fifth wave that apparently is now taking form and luckily it seems to be less froth and more solutions than its predecessor. The reason I mentioned it is that your line of thought seems to be coming straight from Intersectional feminism 101. I apologize for assuming.

Edited by Dragons 7th Eye

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15 minutes ago, darksellsword said:

I think a large portion of the fan base myself included think she's awesome. The blame can be put squarely at the show writers feet. You can argue that both Dan & Jon suffer from the same problem. Jon has been portrayed on the show as an impulsive, incompetent nitwit which is far from who he is in the books where he is very much the talented battle commander much the same as Robb was but much more consciencious and stoic in his demeanor which is naturally a catalyst for readers to want to elevate him to the highest rank but the show removed that and in its stead left us with a sexist stereotype of women and men aswell.

this is the problem honestly

since Jon get rezzed D&D has been treating him as a punching bag at the same time it removed a lot of Dany's flaws as well. take her slavers bay arc in the show where she just rode into town with a 100,000 Dothraki and just killed everyone that was against her making everything perfect and right in the world forget the city was falling apart just before that. that's not a plot line GRRM would do, the whole "dragon's don't planet tree" Fire and blood speech was meant to be the start of Danny fall into tyranny instead the show back tracked and made her the savor again.

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49 minutes ago, Wildling Queen said:

It's not about Dany personally, to me. It's about a theme in this show about women and their ability to rule when having a chance at true power, which always seems to be undermined in a similar way. It just bothers me.

The Iron Throne sucks.

If this were a story about warring families on Wall Street, everything would center around the sinister Targ Corporation, the sprawling behemoth that rose to power manufacturing nuclear warheads. Should we be shocked and surprised that the first female CEO to break the glass ceiling at Targ Corp had to be more cutthroat than the men? And that another female rival also had to play just as dirty to face her head on? Not really. At least the exiled heiress and female rival Daenerys Inc. built her own rival corporation from scratch. She helped fledgling upstart, Northern Enterprises, from going bankrupt and actually tried to reform things in the industry. But now she wants to become a multi national corporation by taking back Targ Corp. Instead of dismantling it, she becomes what she hates.

Let Cersei have the Iron Throne. Dany is better than that.

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13 minutes ago, Dragons 7th Eye said:

The failure you mention ended in her getting the crown. With your own definition earlier regarding Yara and Sansa, that is the true power that she gained so there is no way around the fact that with your own definitions, she ended up once more taking a bad situation and making something out of it.

Fourth wave feminism often called intersectional feminism seems to be pretty predominant here in Europe. I am not versed enough in it to make a factual statement, but I understand it started in the Universities on that side of the Atlantic. It is the fifth wave that apparently is now taking form and luckily it seems to be less froth and more solutions than its predecessor. The reason I mentioned it is that your line of thought seems to be coming straight from Intersectional feminism 101. I apologize for assuming.

The failure I mentioned was a failure because it did not go the way she expected it to. Not even Cersei would have traded her son for the crown. She had an intention behind what she did and it didn't work. It lost her the last thing I think she even cared about.

Intersectional feminism is third-wave feminism. Fourth-wave is more about using the internet to organize and mobilize activists. Each wave has offered solutions, each has been adapted with time and the furtherance of feminist epistemology. We learn and we grow. But intersectionality as a concept was introduced by Kimberle Crenshaw in the 1990s, and we still haven't really resolved that. Fourth-wave is developing still, and very useful, but there's no real concrete scholarship around it that makes it an understandable shift, nor is fifth-wave yet. I can talk about this particular subject all day. :D But I'll stop, because we're discussing the show.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Wildling Queen said:

The failure I mentioned was a failure because it did not go the way she expected it to. Not even Cersei would have traded her son for the crown. She had an intention behind what she did and it didn't work. It lost her the last thing I think she even cared about.

Intersectional feminism is third-wave feminism. Fourth-wave is more about using the internet to organize and mobilize activists. Each wave has offered solutions, each has been adapted with time and the furtherance of feminist epistemology. We learn and we grow. But intersectionality as a concept was introduced by Kimberle Crenshaw in the 1990s, and we still haven't really resolved that. Fourth-wave is developing still, and very useful, but there's no real concrete scholarship around it that makes it an understandable shift, nor is fifth-wave yet. I can talk about this particular subject all day. :D But I'll stop, because we're discussing the show.

Ah so I was right about it in the end that, it is where your line of thought is coming from. Also, no one has their plans working out most of the time. It is the ability to adjust that separates the succesful. However, as I move on - I have a feeling we might disagree on that as well :)

Because in the end I was just one number ahead in the generations. Intersectional feminism does not offer solutions rather it manufactures conflicts ad infinitum offering the same solution of hindering those perceived to be priviledged over and over and over, in my opinion and experience; but I respect your opinion and I understand that I might be wrong - which would tie into the end of my first paragraph and perhaps it is merely a circumstance - such as perceived gender - that defines success within any given structure ;)

But even more than that I respect your ability to drop the off topic, although to be honest, I don't think it is off topic but rather the topic. Perhaps I am wrong in that, too :)  

Edited by Dragons 7th Eye

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2 minutes ago, Dragons 7th Eye said:

Ah so I was right about it in the end that, it is where your line of thought is coming from. I was just one number ahead in the generations. Intersectional feminism does not offer solutions rather it manufactures conflicts ad infinitum offering the same solution of hindering those perceived to be priviledged over and over and over, in my opinion and experience; but I respect your opinion and I understand that I might be wrong.

But even more than that I respect your ability to drop the off topic, although to be honest, I don't think it is off topic but rather the topic. Perhaps I am wrong in that, too :)  

Thank you. B) I'm a total nerd when it comes to my particular field of study, and I don't want to bore anyone with the more theoretical details. Third-wave was really more a response to the prior waves. First-wave's solution was voting, but only white women voting, and really only white, Christian women. Second-wave was about women having the opportunity to work, but it ignored the fact that poor women and all women of color had been performing paid labor for years. So both were not really feminism for women, but for a certain kind of women.

There's a TON more to it than that, but it's a good place to start.

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7 hours ago, Wholala17 said:

Sigh. This "woke" bs is really annoying.

Why do people think it's only female rulers who went mad with power? Did you forget Joffrey and Aerys? Did you forget that Stannis burned his daughter alive, Tywin orchestrated the massacred at the RW - all in pursuit of power. Not to mention countless terrible kings of the Targaryen dynasty. The point is power corrupts people, regardless of their gender. Dany and Cersei allowed themselves to be corrupted by power, and that's on them, like it was for men like Joffrey, Aerys or Stannis. They made their bed, now they need to lay on it. 

Tywin has never been described as a mad man for doing the rains of castamere affair and the orchestrating the Red wedding. Ruthless  yeas , but mad for Powers sake no.

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4 minutes ago, AlaerysTargaryen said:

Tywin has never been described as a mad man for doing the rains of castamere affair and the orchestrating the Red wedding. Ruthless  yeas , but mad for Powers sake no.

This. True in human history, as well. We see some version of the idea of madness reflected in contemporary descriptions of many female rulers. 

Hapshepsut in Egypt, Elizabeth I, Catherine the Great of Russia. 

It’s rarely applied to even the worst male leaders. 

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7 hours ago, darksellsword said:

. At this point the only negative attributes associated with Daenerys is she is ambitious and relentless, perhaps even ruthless  in her pursuit of the ironthrone, those aren't elements of madness or Tyranny per se.

Exactly. and those qualities are present in other male rulers/ Kings in the series and they aren't even seen as "bad qualities". 

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30 minutes ago, AlaerysTargaryen said:

Exactly. and those qualities are present in other male rulers/ Kings in the series and they aren't even seen as "bad qualities". 

Not to mention, the idea of being “mad” is so damn subjective. What does that even mean, really? It’s a meaningless term. 

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11 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

It's a bit hard to see that being precise argument being made in the OP.

I'm the OP. It is my argument and my inner  conflict with the story as of where its headed. Daenerys failing as a Queen , from a mathematical point of view is a 3out of 3 of unworthy queens and  100% because she is a woman who bit off more than she could chew. It lays downs the idea that a woman in the ultimate seat of power is wrong, because women let emotions get in their way. This is not just a fantasy novel way of thinking but real world. Yes , theres been bad kings, batshit crazy kings and politically stupid men who rule. But they lived and died ruling. If Jon wasnt in the picture, what would Varys do. What would the westerosi lords think, because you know cocks do matter? It isnt a question of what Daenerys deserves and what shell get it, it is her being written into a place and evil characterisation for making ruthless decisions that men have made before and stayed in power with respect and admiration.

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5 minutes ago, AlaerysTargaryen said:

It isnt a question of what Daenerys deserves and what shell get it, it is her being written into a place and evil characterisation for making ruthless decisions that men have made before and stayed in power with respect and admiration.

*Sees Tywin callously commit dubious act of ruthless nature*
*Sees both characters and audience cheer at his intellect*

*Sees Daenerys callously commit dubious act of ruthless nature*
*Sees both characters and audience question her sanity*

WhAtEvEr Do YoU MeAn?

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10 hours ago, darksellsword said:

Jon has been portrayed on the show as an impulsive, incompetent nitwit which is far from who he is in the books

Love Kits portrayal, but is still amazes me how diffefent Book and Show Jon are. Book Jon is more politically savy, more conflictedwith his allegiances with more flaws and wants. His inner bitterness and shame with him being a bastard is very interesting to read, too bad it was dropped pretty early in the show.

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3 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

*Sees Tywin callously commit dubious act of ruthless nature*
*Sees both characters and audience cheer at his intellect*

*Sees Daenerys callously commit dubious act of ruthless nature*
*Sees both characters and audience question her sanity*

WhAtEvEr Do YoU MeAn?

most people like daenerys better then tywin. 

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if you are talking about feminism. brianne is a very inpowered women and underrated. 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, starklover said:

most people like daenerys better then tywin. 

That's so not the point I was making, but ultimately I'm relived that more people like Daenerys than Tywin (even if more people probably hate Daenerys than hate Tywin as well.)

One is a main protagonist who mostly tries to help people in need and do good even if it doesn't always work out well, the other is an (actually) evil ruthless bastard, even to his own children, who only cares about his own legacy, no matter the costs. 

Edited by MinscS2

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1 minute ago, MinscS2 said:

That's so not the point I was making, but ultimately I'm relived that more people like Daenerys than Tywin (even if more people probably hate Daenerys than hate Tywin as well.)

One is a main protagonist who mostly tries to help people in need and do good even if it doesn't always work out well, the other is an (actually) evil ruthless bastard, even to his own children, who only cares about his own legacy, no matter the costs. 

yes he has done  horrible things to tyrion and his daughter. i was happy when tyrion killed him. people like the actor more then the character. 

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