Heresy 221 and the Children of Winterfell

[alienarea]

I guess valonqar means ceiling in the Lysene tongue

[SirArthur]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

I guess valonqar means ceiling in the Lysene tongue

GRRM (and not D&D) told us that the show will not end like LOST. I guess he is trapped now. 

[alienarea]

31 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

GRRM (and not D&D) told us that the show will not end like LOST. I guess he is trapped now. 

Or, quoting my favorite bartender from Deep Space Nine: "Greed is eternal."

[Matthew.]

14 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Welp, I guess show Dany just went mad...

The craziest thing to me about the execution of this plot point is that the show was definitely heading there since Season 4 (visions of Drogon over KL), probably heading there since Season 2 (ruined Throne Room filled with snow/ash, probably culminating in Jon Snow killing Dany), possibly even heading to this end point before the pilot began filming, and still it feels like an inelegant rush to the finish line, despite the ample time to plan.

Now, I don't feel that the show has done nothing to build toward this--if anyone came away from the end of Season 1/Book 1, where Dany burns a woman alive (Aerys' favored method of execution), and brings the living weapons of Valyria back into the world, and concluded that they're supposed to be "rooting for" her, that's on them. There were several scenes throughout the Essos seasons that also play out with a similarly ominous tone.

Nonetheless, the back third of that arc clearly suffered from the shortened seasons, in addition to D&D's incompetence, which would have been an issue in any case.

With hindsight, they needed to do the following:
- Do 9 seasons, each with the full 10 episodes
- Particularly, the concept of the people of Westeros refusing to embrace Dany needed more time to marinate
- Finally, it should have been Dany to kill the NK--she's literally AAR, but that only means she's a good conqueror, not a good queen

[Black Crow]

Well once again this isn't a thread about the strange and wonderful thing known as the Mummers version, but I've seen a synopsis of its latest horrors [and I mean the script not the events] and so I'll stick by what I said the OP. No matter what clues GRRM may have given them. it is, clearly not the story the story he is telling. The ascension of Danaerys the Dragonlord was not a happy event and that was arguably foreshadowed in the 1993 synopsis, but that hints at redemption cheese through uniting everybody against the big bad. Instead it got toasted.

The problem all the way through lay in ditching the magic, other than on the periphery in favour of the game of thrones [at least they were honest about the title] so that what we have been given by the mummers is GRRM's story without the skinchanging and warging and without learning the truth about the Others and ultimately the Song of Ice and Fire, albeit it has vondicated we miserable heretics by bumblingly revealing that R+L=J doesn't matter - or at least not as "the central mystery" as its been portrayed by the faithful for so long.

[Melifeather]

20 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

The craziest thing to me about the execution of this plot point is that the show was definitely heading there since Season 4 (visions of Drogon over KL), probably heading there since Season 2 (ruined Throne Room filled with snow/ash, probably culminating in Jon Snow killing Dany), possibly even heading to this end point before the pilot began filming, and still it feels like an inelegant rush to the finish line, despite the ample time to plan.

Now, I don't feel that the show has done nothing to build toward this--if anyone came away from the end of Season 1/Book 1, where Dany burns a woman alive (Aerys' favored method of execution), and brings the living weapons of Valyria back into the world, and concluded that they're supposed to be "rooting for" her, that's on them. There were several scenes throughout the Essos seasons that also play out with a similarly ominous tone.

Nonetheless, the back third of that arc clearly suffered from the shortened seasons, in addition to D&D's incompetence, which would have been an issue in any case.

With hindsight, they needed to do the following:
- Do 9 seasons, each with the full 10 episodes
- Particularly, the concept of the people of Westeros refusing to embrace Dany needed more time to marinate
- Finally, it should have been Dany to kill the NK--she's literally AAR, but that only means she's a good conqueror, not a good queen

How could they possibly get this idea from the books though? Daenerys is a messianic character - the savior coming from the east. Yes, she wants the Iron Throne, but will she come back for revenge? It all seems such a cheap shot - the stereotypical crazy female, prone to extreme emotion, slashing tires and breaking windshields. And the "hero" - Jon Snow, is supposed to "draw people to him" and "he's a natural leader". *big eye roll*  I just refuse to accept that GRRM intended for Dany's arc, er rather, 'high point' to be "Daenerys comes to Kings Landing and decimates the city and castle". I didn't get one speck of an inkling that this had anything to do with Targaryen madness - just revenge for Missandei and Rhaegal, and a "poor me. Nobody loves me."

[Tucu]

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

Sorry, I just don't see it this way.  As for the Lys connection, there is also Varys and Mopatis who are thick with plans for Dany, Viserys and Aegon.  Dany's early memory of soft hands may not fit with a weapon's master like Ser Willem, but they do describe Varys.  I think whatever went on with the marriage contract between Dorne and Derry had more to do with Varys/Mopatis machinations than anything.  Varys would have the connections for hiding someone in Lys.  Ned may have helped Ashara to disappear but I doubt he would want her or her daughter to become courtesans.  She had money after all.  I entertain the notion that Varys hid Dany and Mopatis hid Aegon for a time. I still think that Lemore is Ashara.  I think it was Varys who recruited Connington and gang as well as Ser Willem.

Jon more or less insisted on joining the Night's Watch.  Ned was surprised but allowed it.

     

Fair enough. I will still file this under my Dark Ned crackpot together with his revenge killing spree and shadowbinding of his companions

[Matthew.]

9 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

How could they possibly get this idea from the books though? Daenerys is a messianic character - the savior coming from the east. Yes, she wants the Iron Throne, but will she come back for revenge? It all seems such a cheap shot - the stereotypical crazy female, prone to extreme emotion, slashing tires and breaking windshields. And the "hero" - Jon Snow, is supposed to "draw people to him" and "he's a natural leader". *big eye roll*

Yes, the bolded is a major problem--to be clear, my point isn't that Book Dany is crazy in the traditional sense, my point is that Book Dany is the Fire Messiah, but that doesn't mean she's good or heroic, that just means that she's a powerful ally against the Others. GRRM has said that he aspires for his villains to be "the heroes of their own story," and I think that's exactly what Dany's arc is, and always has been; every choice is sympathetic, but the broader implications are often ominous.

Sooner or later, she's going to be landing on the shores of Westeros to press her birthright claim, backed by dragons and Dothraki. That's not going to make her popular with the people of Westeros, and in any narrative where she wasn't a POV, we might even read her as some terrifying outside force, in the same way that we read the Others. The last of the Targaryens, come to once again spread Fire and Blood.

The Meereenese Blot made the case years ago that this is the point of her arc in Meereen, where she spends an entire book putting on her "floppy ears" with growing frustration, ultimately culminating in her wandering the Dothraki Sea with Quaithe encouraging her to embrace her House words.

I read figures like Robb and Stannis in a similar sense, where their individual causes might by sympathetic, but the broader context of their actions is that they're inflicting widespread harm and chaos on Westeros.

[SirArthur]

6 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Sooner or later, she's going to be landing on the shores of Westeros to press her birthright claim, backed by dragons and Dothraki.

A claim she has for Dragonstone and maybe King's Landing or the Crownlands. But also a claim that is very dubious for the Iron Throne, given the history of the Iron Throne. 

I doubt Dany will destroy King's Landing. Much like Dragonstone, it is the heritage of her ancestory. King's Landing is a Targaryen founding and a Targaryen capital. Destroying King's Landing is destroying her own ancestral claims in a symbolic way. The Starks couldn't afford to loose Winterfell and Dayn can't afford to burn the legacy of her ancestors.

[alienarea]

49 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Well once again this isn't a thread about the strange and wonderful thing known as the Mummers version, but I've seen a synopsis of its latest horrors [and I mean the script not the events] and so I'll stick by what I said the OP. No matter what clues GRRM may have given them. it is, clearly not the story the story he is telling. The ascension of Danaerys the Dragonlord was not a happy event and that was arguably foreshadowed in the 1993 synopsis, but that hints at redemption cheese through uniting everybody against the big bad. Instead it got toasted.

The problem all the way through lay in ditching the magic, other than on the periphery in favour of the game of thrones [at least they were honest about the title] so that what we have been given by the mummers is GRRM's story without the skinchanging and warging and without learning the truth about the Others and ultimately the Song of Ice and Fire, albeit it has vondicated we miserable heretics by bumblingly revealing that R+L=J doesn't matter - or at least not as "the central mystery" as its been portrayed by the faithful for so long.

Honestly, GRRM shares the blame with the show. It's his ending, and as he explained, paraphrased, there are different roads leading from a to b, we still arrive at b.

Daenerys is far from perfect, but replacing one mad queen with another is a cheap video game plot. Plus, making Sansa a scheming bitch and Arya a killer-Ninja, reveals him as an old male chauvinist.

[Melifeather]

Sorry, I should have added my commentary for the books...

Since I believe there is a wheel of time at play, (which needs to be corrected, by the way, and allowed to move forward without repeating past events) I don't believe Dany will come to Westeros at all - regardless of what the 1993 synopsis says. Like BC has said before - she needs to sort out the fire side.

The historical events are replaying in reverse order with many events resolving with an opposite ending. I mentioned one such example about Ned just a few pages ago, namely that he turned his back on love (Ashara) and married for political gain (Catelyn) in order to secure House Tully's alliance, saving Robert, and winning the Rebellion. Ned kept his bastard son and hid the identity of the mother in order to protect her.  Robb got to replay this event by turning his back on political gain by refusing to marry any of Walder Frey's daughters, and married for love ( Talisa Jeyne), thereby insuring that his rebellion was a failure. Jeyne might be pregnant and hiding her pregnancy in order to protect the child, or her mother might be successful in forcing an abortion upon her unknowingly. Ashara became Septa Lemore while her son grew up in his father's house. I think we can expect some type of reversal with regards to Jeyne, but we can only speculate on how GRRM will twist the outcome.

The Greyjoy's are mirroring the Targaryens and Blackfyres, therefore THEY are the ones that will re-invade Westeros with dragons - not Daenerys! Euron is Bloodraven and Victarion is Bittersteel. Bloodraven prevented Bittersteel from overthrowing the Targaryens and place a Blackfyre on the throne. So what would the reverse of that might be? It might mean that Euron actively helps Victarion overthrow the Lannister throne and place Victarion on the throne. Victarion thinks he's going to marry Daenerys, but lucky him, Euron thinks Cersei will make a better bride.

Daenerys is the mother of dragons, so if she has a mirror in this story it's more likely that it's the dragonlords. The dragonlords enslaved people and Daenerys has already begun reversing this by using her dragon to set slaves free, but it hasn't been easy. She has to eliminate the slave trade and then return Drogon to Valyria. I honestly don't know how that last bit will get sorted out, but maybe Drogon will die somehow and Dany will find a clutch of his/her eggs, take them to the smoking ruins of Valyria, and throw them in a volcano.

[Matthew.]

43 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Honestly, GRRM shares the blame with the show. It's his ending, and as he explained, paraphrased, there are different roads leading from a to b, we still arrive at b.

Regardless of what GRRM was willing (or capable) of sharing with the showrunners, I really think it cannot be emphasized enough how much the 1993 letter highlights the importance of GRRM's discovery process of writing ("gardening") in the quality of the final product, even if it means years of delays.

AGOT, ACOK, and ASOS, as gardened by GRRM are pretty good; on the other hand, the broad strokes ideas for that same arc included an Arya/Jon/Tyrion love triangle, Robb dying heroically in 1-on-1 combat with Joffrey (but not before maiming the dastardly villain along the way!), and Dany bumbling into a bunch of wild dragons by luck. 

GRRM might not ultimately commit to bad plot points, but he can sure as hell envision them.

And, as of AFFC/ADWD, even his ability to garden his way out of bad ideas is looking pretty questionable.

[JNR]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

what we have been given by the mummers is GRRM's story without the skinchanging and warging and without learning the truth about the Others and ultimately the Song of Ice and Fire, albeit it has vondicated we miserable heretics by bumblingly revealing that R+L=J doesn't matter

Well, I think it means quite a bit on the show.  It just isn't well done at all.

R+L=J on the show is used as a fundamental reason, a trigger really, for Show Dany's grotesque madness (as some of us have been predicting all along).   Which I doubt will ever be echoed in Book Dany in ADOS, should she survive that long.

It's R+L=J, and Jon's superior claim to reign, as much as anything, that leads Dany to her Aerys-like paranoia that she is being betrayed, for instance.  When Tyrion tells her there is a traitor, Jon's is the name that comes to her mind.  His superior claim to the Throne is the paramount reason why. 

Thus, D&D ensure that the Anvil of Foreshadowing strikes us all with sufficient force in the forehead. 

But as for the concept that this is "GRRM's ending" or "GRRM's story," I really think the case has never been more blatant that that is not true.  Even in the unlikely event R+L=J in the books, it still isn't his ending.

D&D are all but openly admitting it these days -- that they, in the manner of Jon Snow, really know nothing, or very close to nothing.  And that's why they had to make command decisions about how the show concludes, and they are not at all confident those command decisions will pan out.

Example from April 10:

Quote

"We want people to love it,” Weiss said of the “Thrones” ending. “It matters a lot to us. We’ve spent 11 years doing this. We also know no matter what we do, even if it’s the optimal version, that a certain number of people will hate the best of all possible versions."

Mr. Weiss sure seems to be saying, to me at least, that this is their ending, that they dreamed up, and they hope the fans will like.  It's got nothing to do with GRRM.

They fear the fans won't like it, though.  Hence:

Quote

 

To avoid the backlash, Benioff and Weiss already have set their plans for series finale night.

“We’ll be in an undisclosed location, turning off our phones and opening various bottles,” Weiss said.

 

They cannot hide behind the canon, or GRRM, to justify their writing, and that's been true for years now.  It just took most of the fans until now to realize it.

 

[Brad Stark]

GRRM said a lot of things about the show, including it will end the same way in broad strokes.   However GRRM has also said he hasn't seen the show, so I'd take anything he says about it with a grain of salt. 

[asongofheresy]

I feel really lost since I don't watch the show but I have questions related to HotU visions of Daenerys - is it possible Monster (son of Gilly) is the flower we are searching for? A chink at the Wall could mean the flower is a source of weakness, as we know Gilly is named after a flower, her son was supposed to be sacrificed to the Others and they want the boy. And about cloth dragon, is it a nod to Tanselle and Aerion incident? Is there a possibility of Daenerys being a half Lyseni Brightflame no matter how outrageous it is? 

[Black Crow]

Oooh, interesting ideas but its past my bedtime...

[Black Crow]

14 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

GRRM said a lot of things about the show, including it will end the same way in broad strokes.   However GRRM has also said he hasn't seen the show, so I'd take anything he says about it with a grain of salt. 

GRRM to D&D: "X, Y and Z are going to die, and its all going to end in tears.." 

[Brad Stark]

17 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

GRRM to D&D: "X, Y and Z are going to die, and its all going to end in tears.." 

D&D:  X and Z are fan favorites and need to live happily ever after.   W and Y will die instead.

[JNR]

Show Cersei, last night: "The Red Keep has never fallen.  It won't today."

Is it possible Cersei could say a thing like that with a straight face?  No, it isn't, but she did all the same.

I conclude from this that D&D -- masters of ASOIAF lore, collaborators with GRRM -- somehow forgot the Sack.  And so did whoever they're paying to handle logical continuity.

5 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

GRRM said a lot of things about the show, including it will end the same way in broad strokes. 

Without defining "broad stroke," or "major beat," that kind of comment doesn't mean much.

Suppose there's no Night King in the books... there is a true son of Rhaegar named Aegon who isn't Jon... Cersei's dead by the middle of ADOS... Dany never goes insane and never murders mass populations of innocent people... and Jon's parents turn out not to be Rhaegar and Lyanna.

If for the sake of argument all that is different, would we consider that ending to be the same as the show's? 

I wouldn't, but I don't know whether other people would or not.

[Melifeather]

Maester Qyburn also told Cersei that Maegor’s Holdfast was the safest place for her, completely forgetting the rapes and murders of Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon.