Heresy 221 and the Children of Winterfell

[Janneyc1]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

I don't think anyone in Westeros drinks anything distilled.   If it is like Europe, distillation would exist, probably in the maesters and pyromancers, but be used for experiments and medicine, not beverages. 

Do we get descriptions of granite buildings?  Granite is much harder to work, and many great buildings were made of limestone which would have lasted forever without acid rain.   The 2 can be found together in mountainous areas and glaciated areas.  Quarrying granite from bedrock is probably beyond Westeros technology. 

For distilled stuff, the series does mention rum, which is distilled from molasses. It's a common drink aboard the various ships that we see. However, I could see other spirit's not being as readily produced. We basically discovered whiskey by accident, and other forms of distillation kinda sprouted from that happy mistake. 

As to buildings of granite, Winterfell has almost constant references to granite. Walls, pillars, rooms, the crypts pillars, the statues in the crypts etc. I thought that Moat Cailin was the same, but it was actually Basalt, another rock formed from volcanoes (or maybe dragons in this series). 

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, Janneyc1 said:

For distilled stuff, the series does mention rum, which is distilled from molasses. It's a common drink aboard the various ships that we see. However, I could see other spirit's not being as readily produced. We basically discovered whiskey by accident, and other forms of distillation kinda sprouted from that happy mistake. 

The word 'rum' was used for fermented undistilled alchohol made from sugar (either cane, molasses or other types) a thousand years before the first rum was distilled to make what we call 'rum' today.  It isn't clear what GRRM is calling rum.

GRRM stretches his historical periods to accommodate what he wants to write.   The oceans are near the Age of Exploration, as FAB gives us a ship that may have sailed around the world.   The Dothraki seem Bronze age, and most everything else is the high medieval times with a little Renaissance mixed in.   So I suppose it fits that sailors would drink distilled rum before anyone else had brandy , whisky or vodka. 

[Mace Cooterian]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

I don't think a single thing in that episode happens in the books... except, abstractly, Dany's death, which I imagine is the third "holy shit" moment GRRM gave D&D.  But if she dies in the books, I have no doubt the circumstances will be vastly more apt, unpredictable, and interesting than that.

The highlight for me was the trailer for Season 3 of Westworld (coming 2020).  At first, I couldn't figure out what I was seeing as it looked like a cross between Blade Runner and The Ghost in the Shell.  Then, Jesse Pinkman (Aaron Paul) confronts Doloris (Evan Rachel Wood) and it was like oh shit....slap my ass and call me Sally!!!

Then the episode began and it all went down from there, with the possible exception of Brianne getting to complete Jamie's story in the Kingsguard History book.  It would be fitting for this to play out in ADoS.

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

I don't think that Aegon would be floating the River the entirety of his life. On the move and being hidden sure, but not on the river. It's too dangerous and there isn't enough reward to justify it to Illyrio. My guess is that he spent his life wandering around the north western corner of Essos. Illyrio has connections in every town and probably flexed those to hide (F)Aegon. 

Yes, I expect that he was hosted by Mopatis as an infant which might explain Illyrio's somewhat maudlin affection for the boy.  At least until he was weaned and had some language and growth.  Tyrion is dressed in clothes that belonged to a boy and I think the statue in his garden is actually Aegon and not his younger self.  

So I don't think the company that protects and instructs Aegon came together all at one time.  I suspect that Connington is a later addition.   Travelling down the Rhoyne seems like a calcuated risk and I don't think JonCon etal will mollycoddle the boy.  That would make him a weak leader. 

 

   

[LynnS]

13 minutes ago, Mace Cooterian said:

Then the episode began and it all went down from there, with the possible exception of Brianne getting to complete Jamie's story in the Kingsguard History book.  It would be fitting for this to play out in ADoS.

OH! Did that happen?  I've been saying now for some time, that in the end, it would be Brienne who wrote the history of Jaime's deeds in the White Book.  But in the books, rather than the show.

[JNR]

17 minutes ago, Mace Cooterian said:

The highlight for me was the trailer for Season 3 of Westworld (coming 2020).

I had a similar reaction, except season one of His Dark Materials. 

Now, I don't think this fresh, rather twisted children's book series can possibly be turned into a good Hollywood project... but maybe I'm wrong.  Fingers crossed.

17 minutes ago, Mace Cooterian said:

Then the episode began and it all went down from there, with the possible exception of Brianne getting to complete Jamie's story in the Kingsguard History book.  It would be fitting for this to play out in ADoS.

I thought Jaime knighting her was the one inspirational, well set-up, logical, "I should have seen that coming" moment of the entire season.

(In the books, of course, she is actually part of Renly's Rainbow Guard -- de facto Kingsguard -- as of ACOK.  So GRRM beat the show to its feminist statement by more than twenty years.)

[JNR]

9 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I've been saying now for some time, that in the end, it would be Brienne who wrote the history of Jaime's deeds in the White Book.  But in the books, rather than the show.

Perhaps you're right, and that is the last "Holy shit" moment GRRM donated to D&D. 

It does happen at the very end, as we were told it would.

[Brad Stark]

Not much of a surprise.  Assuming Jamie dies and the White Book still exists, someone has to, and Brienne is the most logical of any character with a connection to Jamie. 

[LynnS]

21 minutes ago, JNR said:

Perhaps you're right, and that is the last "Holy shit" moment GRRM donated to D&D. 

It does happen at the very end, as we were told it would.

I think she will survive to tell the tale.  Is it a holy shit moment though.  It would certainly be bittersweet.

[LynnS]

11 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Not much of a surprise.  Assuming Jamie dies and the White Book still exists, someone has to, and Brienne is the most logical of any character with a connection to Jamie. 

Don't forget, she is the one who knows the truth about Jaime killing Aerys (in the books).  She will be removing that stain from his name at the very least.

[Black Crow]

This area of the forum isn't for discussing the Mummers' version, but I can't forbear to mention the 1993 synopsis - transcribed below.

Yes, things have changed in the books, as actually written but look at the core story. This is about the Starks of Winterfell and about Westeros, not the Targaryens. Danaerys the Dragonlord is clearly identified as one of the three great threats to Westeros and its also worth bearing in mind in this connection that far from everything revolving around the Targaryens they are just a 300 year blip in several thousand years of Westerosi history. There is a secret of Jon Snow's birth but far from being the central mystery of the story it is merely a device for getting inside Arya's knickers. 

Funnily enough, while the ending as delivered by the Mummers is being savaged, except in the absence of the magic of Ice and Fire, it appears to cleave to the synopsis or at least it appears to be closer to it than some of the fan theories which have dominated this forum.

 

[Black Crow]

Dear Ralph,

Here are the first thirteen chapters (170 pages) of the high fantasy novel I promised you, which I'm calling 'A Game of Thrones.' When completed, this will be the first volume in what I see as an epic trilogy with the overall title, 'A Song of Ice and Fire.'

As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, have some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle characters in the drama. Roughly speaking, there are three major conflicts set in motion in the chapters enclosed. These will form the major plot threads of the trilogy, [unclear] each other in what should be a complex but exciting (I hope [unclear] tapestry. Each of the [unclear] presents a major threat [unclear] of my imaginary realm, the Seven Kingdoms, and to the live [unclear] principal characters.

The first threat grows from the emnity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge, with the iron throne of the Seven Kingdoms as the ultimate prize. This will form the backbone of the first volume of the trilogy, A Game of Thrones.

While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarian hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume, A Dance with Dragons.

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and an endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be [sic] heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

The thirteen chapters on hand should give you a notion as to my narrative strategy. All three books will feature a complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view among various of my large and diverse cast of players. The cast will not always remain the same. Old characters will die, and new ones will be introduced. Some of the fatalities will include sympathetic viewpoint characters. I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time.

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.

This is going to be (I hope) quite an epic. Epic in its scale, epic in its action, and epic in its length. I see all three volumes as big books, running about 700 to 800 manuscript pages, so things are just barely getting underway in the thirteen chapters I've sent you.

I have quite a clear notion of how the story is going to unfold in the first volume, A Game of Thrones. Things will get a lot worse for the poor Starks before they get better, I'm afraid. Lord Eddard Stark and his wife Catelyn Tully are both doomed, and will perish at the hands of their enemies. Ned will discover what happened to his friend Jon Arryn, [unclear] can act on his knowledge [unclear] will have an unfortunate accident, and the throne will [unclear] to [unclear] and brutal [unclear] Joffrey [unclear] still a minor. Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned [what appears to say] will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter Arya escape back to Winterfell.

Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, will befriend both Sansa and her sister Arya, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake. When his father Eddard Stark is executed, Bran will see the shape of doom descending on all of them, but nothing he can say will stop his brother Robb from calling the banners in rebellion. All the north will be inflamed by war. Robb will win several splendid victories, and maim Joffrey Baratheon on the battlefield, but in the end he will not be able to stand against Jaime and Tyrion Lannister and their allies. Robb Stark will die in battle, and Tyrion Lannister will besiege and burn Winterfell.

Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north. He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch. When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Wounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving ... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wilding encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.

Over across the narrow sea, Daenerys Targaryen will discover that her new husband, the Dothraki Khal Drogo, has little interest in invading the Seven Kingdoms, much to her brother's frustration. When Viserys presses his claims past the point of tact or wisdom, Khal Drogo will finally grow annoyed and kill him out of hand, eliminating the Targaryen pretender and leaving Daenerys as the last of her line. Danerys [sic] will bide her time, but she will not forget. When the moment is right, she will kill her husband to avenge her brother, and then flee with a trusted friend into the wilderness beyond Vaes Dothrak. There, hunted by [unclear] of her life, she stumbles on a [something about dragon eggs] a young dragon will give Daenerys [unclear] bend [unclear] to her will. Then she begins to plan for her invasion of the Seven Kingdoms.

Tyrion Lannister will continue to travel, to plot, and to play the game of thrones, finally removing his nephew Joffrey in disgust at the boy king's brutality. Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders. Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with the surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Jon Snow.

[Redacted by William Barr]

But that's the second book ...

I hope you will find some editors who are as excited about all of this as I am. Feel free to share this letter with anyone who wants to know how the story will go.

All best,

George R.R. Martin

[Matthew.]

4 hours ago, JNR said:

I don't think a single thing in that episode happens in the books... except, abstractly, Dany's death, which I imagine is the third "holy shit" moment GRRM gave D&D. 

I have mixed feelings here, as I would agree that I don't know what else in that episode would be the third "holy shit" besides Dany's death, yet the HoTU scene was before the Santa Fe meeting, so this appears to have already been the plan with Dany for a while.
 

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Funnily enough, while the ending as delivered by the Mummers is being savaged, except in the absence of the magic of Ice and Fire, it appears to cleave to the synopsis or at least it appears to be closer to it than some of the fan theories which have dominated this forum.

Sure, and lets look at the ideas in the abstract:

- The children of Winterfell (barring Rickon) have survived, and the North is independent
- The threats of Ice and Fire are defeated
- Birthright claims to the IT have been abolished
- Tyrion leads some sort of newly formed small council
- King Bran
- Jon's penance is a life spent with the NW/Free Folk

I would argue that a lot of those things don't seem like strange outcomes, save for the stuff with Bran (even the NW enduring as an institution doesn't strike me as strange, since it wasn't really an Other fighting organization for most of its existence anyway--rather, it was a dumping ground for political rivals and criminals); if anything, the most unbelievable outcomes for me are "Arya goes west" and "every Named Character that isn't dead is a member of the Small Council." Also obviously glaring is all of the stuff that goes unaddressed, like the broken seasons.

IMO, it doesn't matter whether or not the show had depicted the "correct" outcomes, however one wants to define that, because the storytelling was always going to be in D&D's hands, and therefore, always going to be botched--and it's the storytelling that matters. Abstract points - eg, "So-And-So sits the Iron Throne," or "So-and-So is the real Azor Ahai" - are rarely interesting in a vacuum, and it's the quality of the storytelling that surrounds them that defines their impact.

I realize, of course, that it is futile for me to advocate for that perspective, as fan discussion is almost entirely outcome oriented, and wide swathes of the fandom are going to be angry with TWOW/ADOS if they don't affirm their fan theories.

[Brad Stark]

We probably won't get a 'correct' outcome.   WoW is likely a 10 year project, each book has taken longer than the previous, and even if GRRM was immortal, I don't see this wrapped up in only 2 more books.   The oldest man in the Guinness was 116, and GRRM has a better chance of breaking that record than finishing his series. I am okay with this, especially if we do get a few more books, but we will have to rely on fan theories and the show for an ending. 

The love story in BCs abstract is interesting as we do not really have one in the books yet.  Jon and Dany are the obvious people, if only because they are central POV characters.   Interesting how this ties into the hidden Targ theories, as incest is accepted and there isn't much room for a surprise twist that Dany and Jon aren't related after all.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

This area of the forum isn't for discussing the Mummers' version, but I can't forbear to mention the 1993 synopsis - transcribed below.

Yes, things have changed in the books, as actually written but look at the core story. This is about the Starks of Winterfell and about Westeros, not the Targaryens. Danaerys the Dragonlord is clearly identified as one of the three great threats to Westeros and its also worth bearing in mind in this connection that far from everything revolving around the Targaryens they are just a 300 year blip in several thousand years of Westerosi history. There is a secret of Jon Snow's birth but far from being the central mystery of the story it is merely a device for getting inside Arya's knickers. 

Funnily enough, while the ending as delivered by the Mummers is being savaged, except in the absence of the magic of Ice and Fire, it appears to cleave to the synopsis or at least it appears to be closer to it than some of the fan theories which have dominated this forum.

 

I think where Dave and Dan failed is that they only showed character psychology without also considering how sociological factors influence and place pressure on people's actions. Many people have dark fantasies of taking revenge on those who hurt them, but most sane people don't actually follow through and act on those impulses.

D&D's version was too condensed - everything felt so "hollow", thus my sarcastic comment about Arya going west. GRRM's outline probably stated that "Dany went east, and then she dies", but D&D chose to fill in the bulletpoints with what they expected Daenerys would do before going east, and then had Jon kill her. I understand that many here feel there is foreshadowing of her coming to Westeros and being the queen of ashes, but because I believe in a wheel of time at play, running in reverse, I think her destiny has actually changed. It got reversed when the wheel was reversed at the Harrenhal Tourney, and now her destiny is to remain in Essos as the mother of dragons. By breaking the wheel, she doesn't begin a new cycle where dragons come to Westeros to conquer. Bloodraven wanted the dragons to fail just as the Blackfyres have failed, time after time after time. The dragons have to go back to where they came from - far in the east. 

[LynnS]

Well, I'm happy that the books didn't quite follow that outline.  It's far more interesting to have Arya apprentice as a faceless man, to name one change.

I have a bit of trivia now that I've started Clash of Kings.  There is a secret underground passage from Chataya's brothel that you can enter through a hidden door in one of the closets.  Tyrion uses it as a means for visiting Shae.  He's seen going into the brothel but not exiting the brothel, so nobody is the wiser.  Varys tells him that the tunnel was made for another Hand of the King who's honor wouldn't allow him to be seen entering a brothel.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion III

"How is it a brothel happens to have a secret entrance?"

"The tunnel was dug for another King's Hand, whose honor would not allow him to enter such a house openly. Chataya has closely guarded the knowledge of its existence."

"And yet you knew of it."

I wonder if Tywin has a few bastards of his own secreted away.  Marwyn tops my list.  Marwyn has physical characteristics of dwarfism.

Sam describes him:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

"Sam," said Alleras, "this is Archmaester Marwyn."

Marwyn wore a chain of many metals around his bull's neck. Save for that, he looked more like a dockside thug than a maester. His head was too big for his body, and the way it thrust forward from his shoulders, together with that slab of jaw, made him look as if he were about to tear off someone's head. Though short and squat, he was heavy in the chest and shoulders, with a round, rock-hard ale belly straining at the laces of the leather jerkin he wore in place of robes. Bristly white hair sprouted from his ears and nostrils. His brow beetled, his nose had been broken more than once, and sourleaf had stained his teeth a mottled red. He had the biggest hands that Sam had ever seen.

There is also a quote from Tyrion's Aunt Genna (which I can't find at the moment).  She confirms that Tyrion is indeed Twyin's son as if it was amusing to her.  So I suspect that Tywin has produced more than one offspring with dwarfism and she knows about it and this is why she says that Tyrion is indeed Tywin's son.  Tyrion never met any others with dwarfism since Tywin wouldn't allow them into Casterly Rock.  Tyrion is the son he can't denounce, but Marwyn is the one he can send off to the Citadel and obscure his parentage.

Marywn is also likely the dwarf maester that Tyrion hears about attending someone at the Fingers.  I suspect this is Littlefinger who would be in need of medical attention for some time after his duel with Brandon.  Someone who has opened the dead to study anatomy.

I'll also mention again my theory about the valonqar.  If Marwyn is Tywin's bastard; he is also Cersei's 'little brother' and valonar is likely a name given to him on his travels in Essos.

[Direwolf Blitzer]

It's tempting to read between the lines, certainly.

Is the show ending evidence for Jon as AA? If he kills Dany and goes North in the books, I assume he will do so with a flaming sword. 

[Brad Stark]

While book Jon killing Dany fits the Shakespearean tragic romance I'd expect, it is hard to pull off without Jon coming back from the dead with no consequences.  Maybe that role will go to fAegon, but as he is a non POV new character, it lacks the same impact.

We also  have to look at how the AA legend differs from the show.   AA loves his wife and killed her as a sacrifice, not to stop her from doing anything.   If Jon and Dany kill eachother, I'd expect something more like that, but again, it doesn't fit Jon coming back from the dead. 

[Tucu]

Ignoring the details, there are some big strokes from the show that I expect to see in the books:

-the WW are a distraction/mirage and the main conflict is between humans (and the fire faction is not a saviour)

-humans do most of the killing (plus the effects of Winter but this is missing in the show)

-the pack survives and greenseer powers make kings again

-the Iron Throne is gone (but I expect much wider destruction, not just KL)

A big part that I think was missing is the famine and resource wars caused by Winter

 

[Black Crow]

On balance I have to say that the ending of the Mummers' version has been liberating. Paradoxically, as I suggested in the OP, while I deplore the mess the they have made of the story, they have also vindicated Heresy by discrediting so much of the entrenched fan-fiction which has dominated discussion and especially the R+L=J theory. In the end, however it turns out, this is the story of the Children of Winterfell, rather than the Targaryen interlopers. It is indeed more important that Jon is a son of Winterfell rather than a child of Valyria.