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Black Crow

Heresy 221 and the Children of Winterfell

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9 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Males in the Stark family named Brandon are legendary figures. So legendary that every rotation of the wheel of time has a Brandon Stark. Bran the Builder is credited with building the Wall, Storm's End, and for being the first human to learn how to speak the language of nature to the Children of the Forest. These events are so far in the past that it may very well be that "Bran the Builder" are actually three separate Brandons.

It seems likely that a Brandon Stark was the first greenseer, and perhaps even the Last Hero. A human being able to see through the eyes of the weirwoods likely have a Brandon Stark to thank. Even if Bran isn't a resurrected Brandon or that he's every Brandon, he's still Brandon reborn, and he plays a very important role on the wheel of time. Every rotation of the wheel of time has a Brandon Stark no matter if it's moving forward or backward. Whichever Brandon is currently alive, he's playing the role of Brandon. The same cannot be said for any other player on the wheel of time. There isn't a Ned Stark, Jon Snow, or a Cersei Lannister on every rotation, but there is a King's Hand, a Lord Commander, and a Lord's Daughter that becomes Queen.

There has been a Stewart/Stuart in every generation of my family since 1817. While I like to think that we've all of us been rather speciaI really can't claim that there's anything more significant in this beyond family tradition

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6 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

The Russian?

Per my later post - I suggest that Conrad's Heart of Darkness is essential reading anent the journey into the Cave of Skulls - and Bloodraven

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9 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Yes, they have to be Starks.

Don't they need to have something in common besides a first name and a last name?

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4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Per my later post - I suggest that Conrad's Heart of Darkness is essential reading anent the journey into the Cave of Skulls - and Bloodraven

Your theory, that Conrad's Russian inspired GRRM's Coldhands is good.  I don't agree with the conclusion that if this theory is correct and the Russian doesn't have a back story it proves that Coldhands doesn't either. 

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11 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

One complete cycle of the wheel of time is four seasons long, so if one season is delayed for a number of years, the same seasonal events occur with some frequency. This is how you can have multiple Brandons.

Well, let me rephrase my question. 

What is it that connects all these Brandons, so that, as you suggested,

14 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

they play the role of Brandon on the wheel of time

When other people say things like "all the Brandons are one Brandon," they have in mind some sort of connection... for instance the idea that our Bran, Bran-the-Greenseer, skinchanges them all using the weirnet.

Do you mean that sort of thing -- some sort of connection -- or are you just saying there are many Brandons, not connected by anything,  carrying out completely different roles at different times? 

Because if it's the second one, I don't see how that's different from what the canon says outright.

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7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

There has been a Stewart/Stuart in every generation of my family since 1817. While I like to think that we've all of us been rather speciaI really can't claim that there's anything more significant in this beyond family tradition

Yes, this is quite a common situation among old families.

On a related note -- GRRM has mocked fellow fantasist David Eddings on various occasions, even going to the extreme of writing him into ASOIAF and murdering him and his wife by proxy.

However, I note that in Eddings' series, there is an ancient tradition in which the regent of a citadel associated with the hero is always named... Brand. 

"Huh," one says, scratching one's chin.

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11 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

One complete cycle of the wheel of time is four seasons long, so if one season is delayed for a number of years, the same seasonal events occur with some frequency. This is how you can have multiple Brandons.

For example, tourneys occur in Spring, political unrest in autumn, and war in winter. 

Okay. I have a problem with this. More specific a methodical problem. In order to establish this, we need Brandons with events. And not events where a Brandon may be around. Most of our known history is about Eddard, not Brandon. Then it is about Robb. And Rickard is also in charge. The actual sample of "Brandon being at events" (kind of like the comic figure Wally) is very slim. And then we have times, where no Brandon of Winterfell is around and events still happen. Or events happen without Brandon. 

Where was Brandon during the Greyjoy rebellion ? Where during the Trident ? There is no Brandon Stark who was involved in the Blackfyre rebellions. 

There is really not much there in our known sample. Killing slavers, killing the NK and doing ship stuff is the most we know. In the best case we can connect some Brandon with subduing a king. And that's about it. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Your theory, that Conrad's Russian inspired GRRM's Coldhands is good.  I don't agree with the conclusion that if this theory is correct and the Russian doesn't have a back story it proves that Coldhands doesn't either. 

If Coldhands establishes that a powerful skinchanger can take a dead body; then the Tree-Bran, Ghost-Jon encounter establishes that Bran can talk to Jon when he is skinchanging Ghost. He can affect him as well since he opened Jon's third eye in that encounter. 

So the simplest scenario is that Jon skinchanges Ghost and his body is stored in an ice cell safe from being taken by the cold for a wight.   In that case, I think it's Bran who will tell Jon that he must reclaim his body or even force Jon out of Ghost.

Coldhands may well be Tree-Bran's monster.

Edited by LynnS

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

There has been a Stewart/Stuart in every generation of my family since 1817. While I like to think that we've all of us been rather speciaI really can't claim that there's anything more significant in this beyond family tradition

The name Brandon comes up more frequently than any other name within the Stark family, and there are many Brandons that are credited with doing historic things. Brandon of the Bloody Blade, Brandon the Bad, Brandon the Breaker, Brandon the Builder, Brandon the Burner, Brandon Ice Eyes, Brandon the Shipwright, Old Nan's Brandon, Brandon the Daughterless, and several other Brandons who didn't do anything notable at all. The significance of all these Brandons are that they are likely named after the original: Brandon the Builder, and therein lies our clue. The builder of what?

3 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Don't they need to have something in common besides a first name and a last name?

Brandon the Builder is credited with building the Wall, Winterfell, Storms End, giver of Brandon's Gift, legendary founder of House Stark and the first King of Winter. I wonder if this Brandon didn't also create and build the wheel of time "game" and insert "Brandon" as the main character?

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Well, let me rephrase my question. 

What is it that connects all these Brandons, so that, as you suggested,

When other people say things like "all the Brandons are one Brandon," they have in mind some sort of connection... for instance the idea that our Bran, Bran-the-Greenseer, skinchanges them all using the weirnet.

Do you mean that sort of thing -- some sort of connection -- or are you just saying there are many Brandons, not connected by anything,  carrying out completely different roles at different times? 

Because if it's the second one, I don't see how that's different from what the canon says outright.

I'm familiar with the idea that all Brandons are the same Brandon, and I do like this idea. It's very Marvel-esque and something I could see GRRM doing, but right now I see the story as a kind of role playing video game. All the characters in the books are actively playing the game, but the main character is Brandon.

"Brandon" is the lead avatar, but not every Brandon achieves his potential. Ned's brother Brandon certainly didn't, and his death may have cleared the way for Ned's son Bran. The greenseer is the game server administrator. He has the ability to start the game over - thus the wrong Brandon dies, and a new Brandon enters the game.

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Yes, this is quite a common situation among old families.

On a related note -- GRRM has mocked fellow fantasist David Eddings on various occasions, even going to the extreme of writing him into ASOIAF and murdering him and his wife by proxy.

However, I note that in Eddings' series, there is an ancient tradition in which the regent of a citadel associated with the hero is always named... Brand. 

"Huh," one says, scratching one's chin.

Mocked? Do you have an SSM where he says he's mocking him? Are you sure it isn't a tribute or homage? I found this on A Song of Ice and Fire Wiki:

Quote

 

David Eddings (1931-2009) was an American fantasy author, best-known for his series The Belgariad and numerous sequels and prequels.

House Deddings of the Riverlands is noted as having been badly mauled by Lannister forces during the War of the Five Kings, with both Lord and Lady Deddings slain. The Deddings were noted as being extremely rich. It should be noted that at the time Martin wrote this reference, both David and his wife (and co-writer) Leigh Eddings were still alive.

 

 

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

Okay. I have a problem with this. More specific a methodical problem. In order to establish this, we need Brandons with events. And not events where a Brandon may be around. Most of our known history is about Eddard, not Brandon. Then it is about Robb. And Rickard is also in charge. The actual sample of "Brandon being at events" (kind of like the comic figure Wally) is very slim. And then we have times, where no Brandon of Winterfell is around and events still happen. Or events happen without Brandon. 

Where was Brandon during the Greyjoy rebellion ? Where during the Trident ? There is no Brandon Stark who was involved in the Blackfyre rebellions. 

There is really not much there in our known sample. Killing slavers, killing the NK and doing ship stuff is the most we know. In the best case we can connect some Brandon with subduing a king. And that's about it. 

 

 

I think I have addressed most of your concerns above, but I might point out that Brandon died at the age of 20 shortly after the wheel of time was reversed. Had the wheel not reversed, this Brandon might have lived. As the events played out in reverse order, his brother Ned became Lord of Winterfell and Bran was born. Bloodraven said he "looked" for Bran. What exactly did he mean by that? Did he decide that Ned's son Bran was a better Brandon than Rickard's son? 

Edited by Feather Crystal

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Posted (edited)
Quote

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion VI

Tyrion remembered a cold night under the stars when he'd stood beside the boy Jon Snow and a great white wolf atop the Wall at the end of the world, gazing out at the trackless dark beyond. He had felt—what?—something, to be sure, a dread that had cut like that frigid northern wind. A wolf had howled off in the night, and the sound had sent a shiver through him.

Don't be a fool, he told himself. A wolf, a wind, a dark forest, it meant nothing. And yet . . . He had come to have a liking for old Jeor Mormont during his time at Castle Black. "I trust that the Old Bear survived this attack?"

"He did."

"And that your brothers killed these, ah, dead men?"

"We did."

"You're certain that they are dead this time?" Tyrion asked mildly. When Bronn choked on a snort of laughter, he knew how he must proceed. "Truly truly dead?"

"They were dead the first time," Ser Alliser snapped. "Pale and cold, with black hands and feet. I brought Jared's hand, torn from his corpse by the bastard's wolf."

Littlefinger stirred. "And where is this charming token?"

Ser Alliser frowned uncomfortably. "It . . . rotted to pieces while I waited, unheard. There's naught left to show but bones."

Two things that I find curious.  Tyrion's dread and the sound of a wolf howling.  This is in the context of Alliser Thorne's coming revelation about the dead walking;  so I wonder if this is a bit of foreshadowing about Jon.  Tyrion seems to be tuned in on another level:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Tyrion I

Somewhere in the great stone maze of Winterfell, a wolf howled. The sound hung over the castle like a flag of mourning.

Tyrion Lannister looked up from his books and shivered, though the library was snug and warm. Something about the howling of a wolf took a man right out of his here and now and left him in a dark forest of the mind, running naked before the pack.

The second thing is Jafr's hand.  If the wights are freeze-dried, why did it rot away to bones while Thorne waited at Kingslanding?  I wonder if the magic that makes a wight is in some way connected to the Wall.  Mel tells Jon that there is magic in the Wall and he can use it.  I think Mel has done so herself during the Mance sacrifice scene.  The cold wind may raise a wight and the Wall may stop them from passing; but does their existence also depend on the Wall?  Is there a limit to the distance a wight can travel south from the Wall?

Edited by LynnS

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think I have addressed most of your concerns above, but I might point out that Brandon died at the age of 20 shortly after the wheel of time was reversed.

But that is my exact point. We have no evidence of any Bran doing stuff. So the latest Brandon is an excpetion. But then we know nothing relevant about earlier Brandons. Only about legendary Brandons of old. Post-Aegon, there wasn't really much going on in the north during all those rebellions in the south.

Quote

Had the wheel not reversed, this Brandon might have lived. As the events played out in reverse order, his brother Ned became Lord of Winterfell and Bran was born.

Robb was born. And Jonny boy. And Sansa. Bran is a summer child, born after the Greyjoy rebellion. 

Edited by SirArthur

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51 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The name Brandon comes up more frequently than any other name within the Stark family, and there are many Brandons that are credited with doing historic things. Brandon of the Bloody Blade, Brandon the Bad, Brandon the Breaker, Brandon the Builder, Brandon the Burner, Brandon Ice Eyes, Brandon the Shipwright, Old Nan's Brandon, Brandon the Daughterless, and several other Brandons who didn't do anything notable at all. The significance of all these Brandons are that they are likely named after the original: Brandon the Builder, and therein lies our clue. The builder of what?

All Brandons are not necessarily named after Brandon The Builder.  Bran is likely named more for his uncle.  Many of the Brandons on your list may have been named after other Brandons on your list. 

In my own family tree, many people are named after their father or grandfather, who was named after his grandfather and so forth.   But we don't have any mythological founder with that name, no one knows how far back these names go, and family members were somewhat surprised when I told them they go back at least 2 or 3 hundred years when they thought it was only 2 or 3 generations. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Two things that I find curious.  Tyrion's dread and the sound of a wolf howling.  This is in the context of Alliser Thorne's coming revelation about the dead walking;  so I wonder if this is a bit of foreshadowing about Jon.  Tyrion seems to be tuned in on another level:

The second thing is Jafr's hand.  If the wights are freeze-dried, why did it rot away to bones while Thorne waited at Kingslanding?  I wonder if the magic that makes a wight is in some way connected to the Wall.  Mel tells Jon that there is magic in the Wall and he can use it.  I think Mel has done so herself during the Mance sacrifice scene.  The cold wind may raise a wight and the Wall may stop them from passing; but does their existence also depend on the Wall?  Is there a limit to the distance a wight can travel south from the Wall?

The freeze dried wight hand was placed in a jar with some type of preserving liquid, but I guess we're to assume that once the thing thawed out that it began to rot - and/or disintegrate. I do agree that there's still enough magic in the Wall to prevent the white walkers and wights from passing, but theoretically I think the wights require a white walker to bring enough magical cold air in order to make it possible for the wights to move about. I suspect that some wildlings had climbed over the Wall in order to make it possible for Othor and Jafer to rise. The hand Alliser brought to Kings Landing - even if it had survived intact - would have needed a white walker or the magical cold air in order to move.

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

But that is my exact point. We have no evidence of any Bran doing stuff. So the latest Brandon is an excpetion. But then we know nothing relevant about earlier Brandons. Only about legendary Brandons of old. Post-Aegon, there wasn't really much going on in the north during all those rebellions in the south.

Robb was born. And Jonny boy. And Sansa. Bran is a summer child, born after the Greyjoy rebellion. 

I don't know why Ned didn't call his firstborn legitimate son Brandon, nor his bastard. How is destiny fulfilled? Do the gods have anything to do with it? Ned named Jon after Jon Arryn, and Robb after his friend Robert, so apparently those people were dearer to his heart than his own brother. Maybe he was mad at his brother for acting so rashly? Would the Rebellion have ignited had his brother not ridden to Kings Landing to threaten the crown prince?

Bran is a summer child, because summer was all he knew. He was born at the beginning of summer and summer lasted until he was nine years old. That's quite a coincidence. I think it was manipulated by Bloodraven in order for Bran to have the best possible development, but apparently he could only allow nine years until destiny or fate placed Bran into a position to be pushed by Jaime. The near death experience allowed the visitation by the three-eyed crow in his dreams, and eventually his trip to the Cave of Skulls. If Bloodraven was looking for him and wanted him brought to him, then we should assume that all the happenstance of Bran's short life was actually planned and quite deliberate.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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1 minute ago, Feather Crystal said:

The freeze dried wight hand was placed in a jar with some type of preserving liquid, but I guess we're to assume that once the thing thawed out that it began to rot - and/or disintegrate. I do agree that there's still enough magic in the Wall to prevent the white walkers and wights from passing, but theoretically I think the wights require a white walker to bring enough magical cold air in order to make it possible for the wights to move about. I suspect that some wildlings had climbed over the Wall in order to make it possible for Othor and Jafer to rise. The hand Alliser brought to Kings Landing - even if it had survived intact - would have needed a white walker or the magical cold air in order to move.

I don't know why Ned didn't call his firstborn legitimate son Brandon, nor his bastard. How is destiny fulfilled? Do the gods have anything to do with it? Ned named Jon after Jon Arryn, and Robb after his friend Robert, so apparently those people were dearer to his heart than his own brother. Maybe he was mad at his brother for acting so rashly? Would the Rebellion have ignited had his brother not ridden to Kings Landing to threaten the crown prince?

While Robert Baratheon,  Jon Arryn and his brother Brandon were all dear to him, the first two were in positions of great political importance and his brother was dead.  He may have been pragmatic about choosing names. 

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5 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The freeze dried wight hand was placed in a jar with some type of preserving liquid, but I guess we're to assume that once the thing thawed out that it began to rot - and/or disintegrate. I do agree that there's still enough magic in the Wall to prevent the white walkers and wights from passing, but theoretically I think the wights require a white walker to bring enough magical cold air in order to make it possible for the wights to move about. I suspect that some wildlings had climbed over the Wall in order to make it possible for Othor and Jafer to rise. The hand Alliser brought to Kings Landing - even if it had survived intact - would have needed a white walker or the magical cold air in order to move.

Freeze dried goods have 98-99% of their water removed and withstand heat up to 75 degrees.  So perhaps Kingslanding was a bit too hot.  It's an interesting idea that they can only move in the cold brought by white walkers.  I guess we don't know if there were any WW around when Small Paul came for Sam and Gilly.  But certainly it was cold enough.  Plus they hide from the sun or only rise at dusk?

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7 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I don't know why Ned didn't call his firstborn legitimate son Brandon, nor his bastard. How is destiny fulfilled? Do the gods have anything to do with it? Ned named Jon after Jon Arryn, and Robb after his friend Robert, so apparently those people were dearer to his heart than his own brother. Maybe he was mad at his brother for acting so rashly? Would the Rebellion have ignited had his brother not ridden to Kings Landing to threaten the crown prince?

[cynic] And then he named his daughter Sansa and not Brandetta. [/cynic]. Honestly, Sansa is a very stunning name for a guy, who names all his boys after people he knew. I guess there are special rules for girls. :dunno:

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On 5/10/2019 at 11:25 AM, JNR said:

If Rhaegar was attending Elia when she gave birth to Aegon, as we see in Dany's HOTU vision... and Elia gave birth to Aegon about the time the Rebellion began... then there's virtually no chance Rhaegar had just kidnapped Lyanna and was busy raping her somewhere far away.

 

On 5/10/2019 at 11:42 AM, JNR said:

You just have to realize that

1) Aegon was born about the time Jon Arryn called his banners, and connect that with

2) Dany saw Rhaegar with Elia when Aegon was a newborn, to see

3) How hollow and ill-founded R+L=J has always been

She doesn't even positively ID Rhaegar in that vision, let alone Elia. Could easily be Lyanna. Can we rule out him knowing his first (f)Aegon was murdered by Lannisters, leaving him to try again with (J)Aegon?

On 5/13/2019 at 2:01 PM, Matthew. said:

Now, I don't feel that the show has done nothing to build toward this--if anyone came away from the end of Season 1/Book 1, where Dany burns a woman alive (Aerys' favored method of execution), and brings the living weapons of Valyria back into the world, and concluded that they're supposed to be "rooting for" her, that's on them. There were several scenes throughout the Essos seasons that also play out with a similarly ominous tone.

Agreed. I think this is good storytelling. She's a "main character," she must be a protagonist. Well, yes, but...

On 5/13/2019 at 2:19 PM, Feather Crystal said:

Daenerys is a messianic character - the savior coming from the east. Yes, she wants the Iron Throne, but will she come back for revenge? It all seems such a cheap shot - the stereotypical crazy female, prone to extreme emotion, slashing tires and breaking windshields

 

On 5/13/2019 at 2:51 PM, Matthew. said:

Yes, the bolded is a major problem--to be clear, my point isn't that Book Dany is crazy in the traditional sense, my point is that Book Dany is the Fire Messiah, but that doesn't mean she's good or heroic, that just means that she's a powerful ally against the Others. GRRM has said that he aspires for his villains to be "the heroes of their own story," and I think that's exactly what Dany's arc is, and always has been; every choice is sympathetic, but the broader implications are often ominous.

Sooner or later, she's going to be landing on the shores of Westeros to press her birthright claim, backed by dragons and Dothraki. That's not going to make her popular with the people of Westeros, and in any narrative where she wasn't a POV, we might even read her as some terrifying outside force, in the same way that we read the Others. The last of the Targaryens, come to once again spread Fire and Blood.

Right. She's only messianic in her own mind. Most people don't want to invite fire-breathing monsters and raping horde of Mongol-analogues into their homes, but this is the company Dany keeps.

On 5/13/2019 at 4:15 PM, JNR said:

But as for the concept that this is "GRRM's ending" or "GRRM's story," I really think the case has never been more blatant that that is not true.  Even in the unlikely event R+L=J in the books, it still isn't his ending.

D&D are all but openly admitting it these days -- that they, in the manner of Jon Snow, really know nothing, or very close to nothing.  And that's why they had to make command decisions about how the show concludes, and they are not at all confident those command decisions will pan out.

Example from April 10:

 

 

On 5/13/2019 at 10:43 PM, JNR said:

Show Cersei, last night: "The Red Keep has never fallen.  It won't today."

Is it possible Cersei could say a thing like that with a straight face?  No, it isn't, but she did all the same.

I conclude from this that D&D -- masters of ASOIAF lore, collaborators with GRRM -- somehow forgot the Sack.  And so did whoever they're paying to handle logical continuity.

Without defining "broad stroke," or "major beat," that kind of comment doesn't mean much.

Suppose there's no Night King in the books... there is a true son of Rhaegar named Aegon who isn't Jon... Cersei's dead by the middle of ADOS... Dany never goes insane and never murders mass populations of innocent people... and Jon's parents turn out not to be Rhaegar and Lyanna.

If for the sake of argument all that is different, would we consider that ending to be the same as the show's? 

I wouldn't, but I don't know whether other people would or not.

 

22 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, D&D have always just changed whatever they want.  They certainly could have changed that too.

The reason Jon was assassinated on the show, IMO, is not fidelity to the books, but... money, basically.  They just liked the cliffhanger drama of ending a season that way.  They knew it would drive ratings.  They knew they could lie all summer and create controversy about whether they were lying, and they were right.

But because the canon stops at that point, they had no idea what to do next! 

So what they came up with was standard Hollywood vending-machine cheese: Mel resurrects Jon, he sits up and is fine, he's totally unchanged in mind, memory, and personality... and thus, with one bound, Jack is free.

But if Jon dies in the books (a thing we don't know) and is resurrected somehow (another thing we don't know), it's not going to be as tidy as that.  Just as ending the second Long Night is never going to be as tidy, in the books, as killing one Popsicle wearing a silly ice-crown.

 

 

I'd beg to differ.  This is still an adaptation. Occam's Razor says we should accept this as, yes, broadly GRRM's ending.  I will wager a copper penny that Dany burns King's landing in the books*, and in fact this is already well-foreshadowed. The details will be different, sure; maybe (f)Aegon coasts in and steals her birthright, which she has suffered so long to claim. Maybe that drives her around the bend, or maybe it's just a straightforward Dance of Dragons. Same with R+L=J. I find it highly unlikely that they made it up. Not only because of the mythos of the show ("We met with George and he asked us if we knew who Jon's parents are"), but because they did next to nothing with that information; easier to accept that George told them it was true and left them to fill in some gaps. Same with the assassination. John will be a wolf and then a man again, per Mel's vision. It won't be as tidy as the show. But the end result will be the same: he will live again. They didn't make this stuff up or plan it or even know what to do, but Boss George said they had to hit these beats, so they did.

Our best and most sensible hope is for the Northern story. All the magic and folklore got excised from the show, so I suspect we'll still have much to discover of Bran et. al when the books are published.* I think we can be assured that the Walkers will be defeated, and beyond that it's George's story to tell. And really, who thought the books would end* with eternal winter anyway?

A question: How much are D&D bound by contract? How much freedom do they really have? More than none but less than all, I suspect.

 

*Standard disclaimers apply.

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

There has been a Stewart/Stuart in every generation of my family since 1817. While I like to think that we've all of us been rather speciaI really can't claim that there's anything more significant in this beyond family tradition

Stuart... Black Crow is the True King, then? Jon (a crow) is a Targaryen king, Black Crow is a Stuart... the parallels have been there all along! 

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

The greenseer is the game server administrator. He has the ability to start the game over - thus the wrong Brandon dies, and a new Brandon enters the game.

Still not clear how this works in the case of Brandon the Shipwright and Brandon the Burner, who lived at the same time and played exactly the opposite roles.

The first sailed away into the Sunset just to see what was there; his son did not go with him, and instead burned the remaining Stark fleet when his father never came back.  I can't really see what is connecting these two Brandons other than their name.

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Mocked? Do you have an SSM where he says he's mocking him?

GRRM has on many, many occasions mocked fantasy novelists of the 70s and 80s, of whom Eddings is a paramount example, because their portrayals of Middle Ages life were wildly unrealistic in his opinion.

You can also see it rather clearly in his choice of phrasing.  Here's the way he wrote a true homage, to Roger Zelazny:

Quote

Those are the Stones of the Silent God, and there the entrance to the Patternmaker's Maze. Only those who learn to walk it properly will ever find their way to wisdom, the priests of the Pattern say.

"Walking the Pattern to find your way to wisdom" is a direct reference to the process of walking the Pattern in Zelazny's Amber books.  It's clear as a bell to anybody familiar with RZ's work.

Now here's what GRRM wrote about the Deddings family, the very name of which is meant to imply "dead" plus "Eddings":

Quote

Lady Darla Deddings saw her brother Davos stabbed through the eye when he tried to defend her from three drunken ostlers intent on raping her.

Rape and murder is not what I would call a tribute.  It's in pretty poor taste, really.

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9 minutes ago, Direwolf Blitzer said:

She doesn't even positively ID Rhaegar in that vision, let alone Elia.

Beg pardon, but she does.

Quote

Dany could not let it go. "His is the song of ice and fire, my brother said. I'm certain it was my brother. Not Viserys, Rhaegar. He had a harp with silver strings."

You couldn't ask for a more positive ID than that.

11 minutes ago, Direwolf Blitzer said:

I'd beg to differ.  This is still an adaptation. Occam's Razor says we should accept this as, yes, broadly GRRM's ending.

"Broad" is such a broad concept, it doesn't mean much. 

I think it's GRRM's ending in the very broad sense that the Wall will fall, there will be a huge struggle for survival, and the story and characters will shift to the North, but beyond that... well.  Not much.

In the books, there is no Night King, and no way for the Second Long Night to end with his death.   That alone is a gigantic guaranteed difference.

The Wall is not going to fall because a wighted dragon breathed on it.  HBO has already admitted the show's rendition of the origin of white walkers is not true.   Rhaegar's son Aegon isn't dead and he isn't Jon.  Rhaegar couldn't possibly have annulled his marriage to Elia because he had two children with her.  Jon Connington exists.  Sansa has never even been in the North since AGOT; she can't possibly marry or be raped by Ramsay.  I could go on and on and on.

25 minutes ago, Direwolf Blitzer said:

Same with R+L=J. I find it highly unlikely that they made it up.

Oh, I wouldn't suggest they did.  It's plain GRRM left it as a logical possibility in the books, and the fans found that possibility, and so did D&D.  But it's also evident GRRM never asked them who Jon's parents were ... only Jon's mother. There's a very good reason for that distinction.

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26 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Freeze dried goods have 98-99% of their water removed and withstand heat up to 75 degrees.  So perhaps Kingslanding was a bit too hot.  It's an interesting idea that they can only move in the cold brought by white walkers.  I guess we don't know if there were any WW around when Small Paul came for Sam and Gilly.  But certainly it was cold enough.  Plus they hide from the sun or only rise at dusk?

Maybe Maester Aemon was wrong to prepare the hand in a jar of solution then? Perhaps leaving it dry would have been better?

Yes, I do believe they only rise at night or when the sun is blocked by a snowstorm.

24 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

[cynic] And then he named his daughter Sansa and not Brandetta. [/cynic]. Honestly, Sansa is a very stunning name for a guy, who names all his boys after people he knew. I guess there are special rules for girls. :dunno:

Girls have different purposes in medieval times. Their maidenheads are commodities to be bought and sold. A beautiful name would only enhance the product.

12 minutes ago, JNR said:

Still not clear how this works in the case of Brandon the Shipwright and Brandon the Burner, who lived at the same time and played exactly the opposite roles.

The first sailed away into the Sunset just to see what was there; his son did not go with him, and instead burned the remaining Stark fleet when his father never came back.  I can't really see what is connecting these two Brandons other than their name.

GRRM has on many, many occasions mocked fantasy novelists of the 70s and 80s, of whom Eddings is a paramount example, because their portrayals of Middle Ages life were wildly unrealistic in his opinion.

You can also see it rather clearly in his choice of phrasing.  Here's the way he wrote a true homage, to Roger Zelazny:

"Walking the Pattern to find your way to wisdom" is a direct reference to the process of walking the Pattern in Zelazny's Amber books.  It's clear as a bell to anybody familiar with RZ's work.

Now here's what GRRM wrote about the Deddings family, the very name of which is meant to imply "dead" plus "Eddings":

Rape and murder is not what I would call a tribute.  It's in pretty poor taste, really.

I theorize that Brandon the Shipwright and Brandon the Burner must have both been conceived during an extended season such as 17 year long winter for example. If the wheel of time keeps repeating the same winter for years at a time, you're bound to get some duplication. 

22 minutes ago, Direwolf Blitzer said:

 

*Standard disclaimers apply.

Stuart... Black Crow is the True King, then? Jon (a crow) is a Targaryen king, Black Crow is a Stuart... the parallels have been there all along! 

Direwolf Blitzer, as I live and breathe! Where have you been?

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