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Black Crow

Heresy 221 and the Children of Winterfell

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23 minutes ago, Direwolf Blitzer said:

I'd beg to differ.  This is still an adaptation. Occam's Razor says we should accept this as, yes, broadly GRRM's ending.

Occam's Razor as argument for show RLJ is really ... I don't know. I have no words for it. You know what Occam's Razor would do with RLJ ? Rhaegar raped Lyanna and Ned hunts the murderers. That would be Occam's Razor.

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And when he did catch up with them they literally told him that they were only obeying orders... :devil:

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6 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Your theory, that Conrad's Russian inspired GRRM's Coldhands is good.  I don't agree with the conclusion that if this theory is correct and the Russian doesn't have a back story it proves that Coldhands doesn't either. 

The Russian did have a back story but it wasn't relevant to what happened and why. Coldhands too presumably had a back story, but my point is that like the Russian it was his present actions which matter, both in leading the Scooby Gang to meet Bloodraven/Kurz, and in foreshadowing Jon's revival, rather than his antecedants.

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58 minutes ago, JNR said:

Beg pardon, but she does.

Ah, thank you. I had only searched for the HotU scene in my e-book, and stopped reading when I found what I was looking for. Still: she is assuming. She doesn't know what any of these people look like. I agree that it's undoubtedly, 100% Rhaegar, but she's just guessing, and the stories she grew up with are surely no more reliable than Maester Yandel, etc.

1 hour ago, JNR said:

In the books, there is no Night King, and no way for the Second Long Night to end with his death.   That alone is a gigantic guaranteed difference.

I'm on board with you here. ASOIAF is a tale of a thousand plots. I am inclined to believe that the 5 or 10 resolved by the show were done mostly to GRRM's specifications is all. Which, happily for us, means the entire Northern story remains to be told.*

 

*By GRRM or his executors

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Oh, I wouldn't suggest they did.  It's plain GRRM left it as a logical possibility in the books, and the fans found that possibility, and so did D&D.  But it's also evident GRRM never asked them who Jon's parents were ... only Jon's mother. There's a very good reason for that distinction.

I can't help but think this is the result of an intelligent fan base with too many years between novels. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes a hidden prince is just that. Hopefully we get the authoritative answer in our lifetimes!

 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Direwolf Blitzer, as I live and breathe! Where have you been?

Well hey there.

I've relapsed into ASoIaF. The show is weak tea, though, so I had to come back to Heresy for the hard stuff.

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29 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

The Russian did have a back story but it wasn't relevant to what happened and why. Coldhands too presumably had a back story, but my point is that like the Russian it was his present actions which matter, both in leading the Scooby Gang to meet Bloodraven/Kurz, and in foreshadowing Jon's revival, rather than his antecedants.

Relevance is relative, especially with asoiaf.   Coldhands has his own story, and his back story is likely relevant to Bloodraven's story or Bran's or the Others.   That doesn't mean he's relevant to Dany's story, for example.   Other than the show, we have no reason to suspect Dany and Bran will be relevant to each other's stories.   

Asoiaf is about a series of conflicts and characters involved in them, that happen in the same world.   Some do interact,  but these are really different stories.

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59 minutes ago, Direwolf Blitzer said:

I will wager a copper penny that Dany burns King's landing in the books*, and in fact this is already well-foreshadowed. The details will be different, sure; maybe (f)Aegon coasts in and steals her birthright, which she has suffered so long to claim. Maybe that drives her around the bend, or maybe it's just a straightforward Dance of Dragons.

It's one of the more controversial plot points of the season, but I'm inclined to agree, and I'd go so far as to say that I can even see the case for why it might play out this way chronologically - after Long Night 2.0 - and why, despite the ongoing Young Griff and Euron plot threads, it might ultimately still be the Lannisters holding KL by that point in the story.

While much emphasis has been placed on the "Mad Dany" portion of it, it's also worth noting that the Northmen also go berserk, and the whole thing descends into chaos and slaughter, so I'm attempting to set aside all of the problems of D&D execution, and instead ask what the broader premise is--why is this the climax of this season, and more broadly, the climax of the show itself?

IMO, the underlying premises are:

- It is paralleling the last cycle of violence being closed out by a Lannister sack of King's Landing
- The Northmen have deep, unresolved grievances against the Lannisters, relating to Eddard's death and the Red Wedding
- Dany also associates the prior Sack with the slaughter of her family, and a life spent running from assassins, never knowing her true home
- While Dany's alliance fought the Battle for the Dawn, these are the people that hid safely behind their walls, scheming against the alliance
that was sacrificing everything to save them (and all of Westeros) from the WWs
- In a thematic sense, Westeros is a land where revenge is used as a substitute for true justice; additionally, a hunger for the Iron Throne is the root of most of the evils that play out over the course of the story

In essence, the triumphant "heroes" of the Battle of the Dawn head south for their Scouring of the Shire, but it's not a glorious mop up, it's horrific for the aforementioned thematic reasons: the quest for the Throne is evil, the people involved have never known true justice, and aiming soldiers and dragons at a city is bound to end badly.
__________

I can see the big picture case for what they wanted to achieve here, and even a good execution of that idea probably wouldn't be to a lot of people's tastes; unfortunately for them, this isn't just a divisive ending, but one that was badly executed. And not just in the usual manner of D&D's poor execution - continuity problems, dialogue problems, problems with suspension of disbelief-, but badly executed in a big picture sense. Particularly, Long Night 2.0 - the event that is supposed to leave the 'heroes' harrowed and broken - came and went within a single episode.

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Everyone is taking about how mad Dany is now the villain to be brought down in the final episode,  but history doesn't work that way.   When the USA bombed Dresden in WW2, we didn't suddenly become the enemy of the free world until we were brought down.   Our atrocities were mostly written off as "war is hell" and we went back to being the good guys, at least from our perspective.   

Of course, I predicted all the major characters had to die in the end, so Dany being brought down makes sense, along with Jon, Bran, Sansa and Arya, but everyone is discussing this as if there is no alternative. 

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I think that its a consequence of a too narrow focus on the game of thrones rather than the Song of Ice and Fire.

In the 1993 synopsis Danaerys the Dragonlord tooled up from the mysterious east and conquered Westeros, then and only then she had to face the threat from the North. In the Mummers' version that's been reversed. In order to accommodate the ultimate goal of the Iron Throne the blue-eyed lot have been hastily brushed aside and now its gearing up for the ultimate battle for the throne, which is obviously the only thing that really matters

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Hello everyone, hope you are having  good day, I wanted to ask if it's possible to discuss Faith of the Seven/Seven Pointed Star in future threads? After posting my threads about Empire of Dawn I have realized Yi Ti figures like Lion of Night, Maiden Made of Light and God on Earth are connected to Faith as well. 

Lion of Night - Father and Stranger, Lion of Night is father of God on Earth and it's his demons that is associated with the Long Night

Maiden Made of Light - Maiden, Mother and Crone, according to seven pointed star it is the Maiden who gave birth, thus Maiden and Mother are the same, and Yi Ti legends says Long Night happened because MMoL turned her back to humanity, opposite of Crone who guides humanity.

God on Earth - Smith and Warrior, as Azor Ahai he is the one who made Lightbringer and as Warrior he fought against Others with his famed blade.

This would also tie Faith of the Seven with Trios a deity with three heads and means Faith is basically a trinity in its origins. They are also the only Asoiaf religion I know to have a holy book, and in our world holy books aren't only filled with prayer but they contain laws and important historical events especially about the Semitic people. So maybe Seven Pointed Star also contains information about Azor Ahai and Long Night but it is hidden in songs for now. 

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Its a bit off-topic right now but if you want to write this up into an essay we can run it as the OP for a heresy thread.

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1 hour ago, Jova Snow said:

Hello everyone, hope you are having  good day, I wanted to ask if it's possible to discuss Faith of the Seven/Seven Pointed Star in future threads? After posting my threads about Empire of Dawn I have realized Yi Ti figures like Lion of Night, Maiden Made of Light and God on Earth are connected to Faith as well. 

Lion of Night - Father and Stranger, Lion of Night is father of God on Earth and it's his demons that is associated with the Long Night

Maiden Made of Light - Maiden, Mother and Crone, according to seven pointed star it is the Maiden who gave birth, thus Maiden and Mother are the same, and Yi Ti legends says Long Night happened because MMoL turned her back to humanity, opposite of Crone who guides humanity.

God on Earth - Smith and Warrior, as Azor Ahai he is the one who made Lightbringer and as Warrior he fought against Others with his famed blade.

This would also tie Faith of the Seven with Trios a deity with three heads and means Faith is basically a trinity in its origins. They are also the only Asoiaf religion I know to have a holy book, and in our world holy books aren't only filled with prayer but they contain laws and important historical events especially about the Semitic people. So maybe Seven Pointed Star also contains information about Azor Ahai and Long Night but it is hidden in songs for now. 

LOL! I knew he was going to get you to write an OP in the end.  Don't be scared.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Direwolf Blitzer said:

Still: she is assuming. She doesn't know what any of these people look like. I agree that it's undoubtedly, 100% Rhaegar, but she's just guessing, and the stories she grew up with are surely no more reliable than Maester Yandel,

It's certainly possible the vision is one of those from "days that never were" of which Pyat Pree warned her, and hence never happened at all.

 However, I think it's much more reliable than Yandel.  Here's why... the dialogue goes on:

Quote

Ser Jorah's frown deepened until his eyebrows came together. "Prince Rhaegar played such a harp," he conceded. "You saw him?"

She nodded. "There was a woman in a bed with a babe at her breast. My brother said the babe was the prince that was promised and told her to name him Aegon."

That harp is a matter of record, and Jorah confirms it, and we've never heard of any other Targ who had something similar.  So yes, it's Rhaegar.

Now, if that man was Rhaegar, and that baby was to be named Aegon because it would be king...it certainly must be the original Aegon.  

Rhaegar would have had no reason, at any time in his life, to imagine that his first son Aegon would not be king.  Because Rhaegar died before his son by Elia did.

So if the vision happened at all, I conclude it can only be of Rhaegar, Elia, and newborn Aegon, and thus (still assuming it happened at all), it happened around a year before the Sack, if GRRM is being honest about Aegon being about a year old then. 

And that is certainly an interesting thing to consider, re the timing of Rhaegar's supposed kidnapping of Lyanna.

4 hours ago, Direwolf Blitzer said:

Hopefully we get the authoritative answer in our lifetimes!

On that I'm sure we are all in perfect agreement, including GRRM.

Edited by JNR

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3 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Of course, I predicted all the major characters had to die in the end, so Dany being brought down makes sense, along with Jon, Bran, Sansa and Arya, but everyone is discussing this as if there is no alternative. 

Well, I've been predicting Dany would die in the series finale for many years now.

Ever since the show's HOTU visions, in fact, which I found almost incredibly blatant and easy to interpret compared to all the subtlety and grace and ambiguity of GRRM's originals.

People argued with me at the time; now they find it similarly obvious Dany will die, because Dany is a mass murderer who deserves it.

As to whether other characters will die... hrm.  I could make a case for all the above, but instead, I'm going to predict that none of them will die.  Not on the show.

However, Show Sansa, of that group, will have the most surprising outcome IMO.  My guess is people will be rolling their eyes and saying the writers pulled it out of their asses and that it wasn't set up at all.  And mostly, that will be true.

We'll soon know, one way or another.

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58 minutes ago, JNR said:

However, Show Sansa, of that group, will have the most surprising outcome IMO.  My guess is people will be rolling their eyes and saying the writers pulled it out of their asses and that it wasn't set up at all.  And mostly, that will be true.

Do you think they'll convene a Great Council, and declare her high queen of Westeros, since everyone in Show World has suddenly decided that she's the smartest character? Or that Gendry will become king, and the two will end up married?

Either way, I have my guesses as to character fates, for whatever that's worth; Dany has gone mostly how I've expected, while I've been wildly off base with Bran, because I assumed that either the 3EC or NK's mark thing would have payoff. 

Sansa - Lady/Queen of the North, and possibly more than that
Bran - No clue; maybe some late reveal that he was manipulating humanity into disarray. More likely he spends his days staring off into space
Arya - No clue
Jon - Kills Dany in the throne room, decides he doesn't want to expose his family to the risks associated with his identity being known, goes to join the Free Folk where they don't care about his bloodline
Dany - Killed by Jon
Tyrion - Becomes the Hand to whomever is ruling, or the leader of some kind of ruling council if the IT is dissolved as an institution
Bronn - Probably achieves some insanely high office, because the showrunners love him
Davos - Finally goes home (doesn't he have a wife!?!)

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Posted (edited)

For both book and show I would bet on Arya killing Dany maybe using Missandei's face. In the books Dany has a thing for protecting young girls, so getting close this way can work. In the show I am going with Jon killing Arya (without realising it was her); he made an oath and will keep it like an idiot till the end. Sansa and Bran will stay in The North while the south descends in further chaos.

Edited by Tucu

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7 hours ago, LynnS said:

LOL! I knew he was going to get you to write an OP in the end.  Don't be scared.

Well better have enough panic attacks before he knocks on my door, I shot myself in the heel. 

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7 hours ago, JNR said:

 

So if the vision happened at all, I conclude it can only be of Rhaegar, Elia, and newborn Aegon, and thus (still assuming it happened at all), it happened around a year before the Sack, if GRRM is being honest about Aegon being about a year old then. 

And that is certainly an interesting thing to consider, re the timing of Rhaegar's supposed kidnapping of Lyanna.

 

Well that harks back to an earlier post about Rhaegar riding out, and probably could have written better. If you set aside the popular obsession with R+L=J and consider Rhaegar's actions, they speak not of abounding love so much as panic. Something had happened to spook him badly and I wonder whether that something was the untimely return of winter.

We know/believe that Winter with a capital W is coming, Rhaegar, fancying himself a scholar also knew it was coming and may have thought it was starting there and then. As to what happened next I don't pretend to know, but I think that this may have been the real motive rather than falling in love with a girl he had never met or spoken to.

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Although this is not working with the flow of the conversation, I want to talk more about naming children, especially naming rights. The only other Sansa we know is another Stark, so it is safe to conclude that Ned named all children. Why didn't Cat name any child ? Robert and Cersei have this turned around, Joeffrey, Mycella and Tommen are not exactly Baratheon names. Why didn't Robert care ? 

I'm not sure sure if GRRM wasn't gardening the names out of their intended role. I guess Sansa should sound southish, but that has been destroyed by the other gardened Sansa Stark. And Arya sounds targaryenish. Also a Joeffrey Lannister was gardened in later. 

I don't know what's going on and why there has to be a Joeffrey Lannister, Arya Flint, Sansa Stark and so on in the canon. When I expected a Joeffrey Baratheon, Arya Whent or Sansa Tully. Which would fit better with the naming rights and intentions of their parents. Who named Mya Stone ? I really don't know what is going on and why only Gendry, the bastard Robert likely does not know about, sounds baretheonish. 

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39 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Well that harks back to an earlier post about Rhaegar riding out, and probably could have written better. If you set aside the popular obsession with R+L=J and consider Rhaegar's actions, they speak not of abounding love so much as panic. Something had happened to spook him badly and I wonder whether that something was the untimely return of winter.

We know/believe that Winter with a capital W is coming, Rhaegar, fancying himself a scholar also knew it was coming and may have thought it was starting there and then. As to what happened next I don't pretend to know, but I think that this may have been the real motive rather than falling in love with a girl he had never met or spoken to.

Oh I like this reasoning.  Kevan Lannister tells us that Rhaegar would never have 'looked twice' at Lyanna if Cersei had been at the tournament.  So I don't think Rhaegar chose Lyanna for her beauty or for love.  Doing a double-take when you see someone for the first time indicates a level of surprise and recognition or deja vu.  I think Rhaegar was more than a scholar.  I think it likely that he was a dreamer and went off to Summerhall to compose and consult with the Ghost of High Heart;  the original wood's witch who made the PwiP prophecy.  I think Lyanna figures in those dreams or visions given to him by the GoHH in payment for his songs.

But of course pure friggin speculation without any back-up whatsoever.  lol

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@SirArthur great topic actually I think Robert's kids have Lannister names to hint us they are not Baratheons? Sansa could be named Minisa after Catelyn's mother and that would make sense why she is the most southern Stark. Robb's name is weird too Brandon and Rickard would be more appropriate for a Stark heir. Jon could be Brandon or Rickard, I know there is a Jon Stark but everyone assumes he was named after Lord Arryn I don't think he appreciated the name - for RLJ purpose we could say his name is a hint for Jon Waters bastard of Eleana. 

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