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Heresy 221 and the Children of Winterfell

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8 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Civilizations can fall if all major population centres are destroyed. It can take 100s of year for new civilizations to rise again. We can see this during the Bronze Age Collapse when most cities between Greece and Anatolia were destroyed and abandoned. Egypt and Mesapotamia were also affected but some cities survived.

Theory is one thing, the destruction of Oldtown and the Arbor something completely else. 

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2 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

@Lady Rhodes there is still a possibility of Jon having a different father from the show, having Lyanna as mother doesn't mean Rhaegar has to be father considering lack of dragon image from Jon's chapter, while Daenerys saw herself as Rhaegar fighting at the Trident. Even Aegon who isn't supposed to be Elia's son was blessed by god of Rhoynar. 

This is certainly true. But I think we may have to concede the point of who is mother is. @Feather Crystal suggestion is certainly possible but given the tenor of how dan and dave talked about it in the after credits and GRRM own words (both in the most recent blog post and in the one concerning agreements being made concerning books) I am doubtful that Lyanna being Jon’s mother is anything other than truth at this point. This is not to say that something was not a foot at ToJ - I have been persuaded at this point. Actually, this last season made me think more about that. Daenerys and Rhaegar are heavily compared by Barristan and Jorah. If She does make a darker turn (I have read a few no show, text based only analysis on this as well) and feels the only way to save the weak is to burn everything to the ground and start anew, I ponder about Rhaegar. If he was as fixated on prophecy and presumably the return of the Others, would he sacrifice a woman and child to Save the world? I am more open to that possibility now

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15 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

to be totally forthright, I have been able to enjoy the show, recognizing it as a separate medium, for most of its tenure. Was not a fan of the last two seasons - I blame rushed and sloppy storytelling. 

I am actually not surprised and it has nothing to do with the persons working on the show. TV is a very limited medium and many, many series with a gardening style of storytelling have had the same problems the show had. There a solutions to this: the episode style storytelling of the 80s and 90s and the continuing introduction of new characters to keep it fresh.

Martin has the same problems with the books, merging from an episode like storytelling to a fully fleshed out story and the need for new characters. And both mediums having the same issues won't help in the solution.

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3 hours ago, JNR said:

In ASOS, we learn Edric is 12 at that time.

We also learn in that same book that

Thus we know Edric is 12 in 300 AC, and there is no way he was conceived in 283.

It would appear that if Edric is indeed twelve in A Storm of Swords, he would have been conceived in 286 and born in 287. So the only way he is Ned's bastard is if Ned found a way to see her again, which I have to admit, the chances are quite slim. If Ashara is Wylla, I would imagine she would avoid public celebrations such as weddings and tourneys for fear of being recognized, but it's not out of the realm of possibilities. I'll wait to revise my theory until we know what happens to Sansa and Gilly. Sansa doesn't seem to be avoiding public encounters, but relies on her dyed hair to prevent recognition. In the meantime, I'll assume "Wylla" either married a commoner, or some other nobleman that wishes to remain hidden. That being said, this doesn't negate Edric as being an inverted parallel to the bastard of Winterfell. Wylla is still pretending that Edric is her elder brother's child.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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1 hour ago, JNR said:

Well, what the show did simply has no relevance to the books.

Monarchy is the only way Westeros has ever been run for thousands of years.   Westeros moved from petty kings to more important ones like the Storm Kimg to Aegon overseeing seven kingdoms... but there were always kings.

If civilization in Westeros survives, there will be a king of some sort.  It's not going to become a democratic republic.

You misunderstood.   I meant after King's Landing is destroyed Westeros would go back to 7 separate Kingdoms like before the conquest - not that it would become a democracy. 

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22 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Theory is one thing, the destruction of Oldtown and the Arbor something completely else. 

The Arbor has already fallen to Euron. Three Towers ("towers by the sea"?) and Old Town are probably next. There are not many cities in Westeros and only a few big towns.

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1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

Why shouldn't it survive ? There is always a day after. Even the children if the forest will have a government form. 

Sure.  I think it will survive, and there will be a post-Long Night king, and that king will likely choose a Kingsguard (or Queensguard, as the case may be).

One thing GRRM's told us is the ending will be bittersweet. 

Well, if all humans in Westeros die and civilization ends, that will obviously be all bitter and no sweet.  So we can be pretty confident that's not the ending.

We can also just look at the original Long Night as a model of what to expect.   Civilization did survive, and there continued to be kings.

51 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

to be totally forthright, I have been able to enjoy the show, recognizing it as a separate medium, for most of its tenure. Was not a fan of the last two seasons - I blame rushed and sloppy storytelling.

They're certainly the worst seasons, but IMO the show has been doing kooky, inexplicable things since at least season four.  

For instance, after a child dies, Dany locks up two dragons just as she did in the books.  She clearly has no control over the dragons at all.

But then later she does have control over them. 

No explanation for this is ever given; she just does.  This is typical of post-canon show BS, and we can be sure such a critical point is not going to be ignored in the books.

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37 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I am actually not surprised and it has nothing to do with the persons working on the show. TV is a very limited medium and many, many series with a gardening style of storytelling have had the same problems the show had.

That's true, but let's not kid ourselves it has nothing to do with the show-runners.

Any of us could, in ten minutes, have come up with a better ending than that.  The show-runners just stopped even trying to maintain continuity, whether we mean continuity with the books or even continuity with their own world.

If you doubt this, ask yourself if, in your story, a raven could fly from the Wall to Dragonstone in one day, as we saw in season seven.  Ask yourself how you see the Wall falling.   I have no doubt you would have done much better than Benioff and Weiss, answering such questions, as would we all have.

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1 hour ago, JNR said:

Sure.  I think it will survive, and there will be a post-Long Night king, and that king will likely choose a Kingsguard (or Queensguard, as the case may be).

One thing GRRM's told us is the ending will be bittersweet. 

Well, if all humans in Westeros die and civilization ends, that will obviously be all bitter and no sweet.  So we can be pretty confident that's not the ending.

We can also just look at the original Long Night as a model of what to expect.   Civilization did survive, and there continued to be kings.

They're certainly the worst seasons, but IMO the show has been doing kooky, inexplicable things since at least season four.  

For instance, after a child dies, Dany locks up two dragons just as she did in the books.  She clearly has no control over the dragons at all.

But then later she does have control over them. 

No explanation for this is ever given; she just does.  This is typical of post-canon show BS, and we can be sure such a critical point is not going to be ignored in the books.

I would agree with that fully.

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17 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The Daynes are described as “Stoney Dornish” with many variations of hair color. Ashara is reported to have dark brown hair with purple eyes, and Gerold “Darkstar” Dayne has silver hair with a black streak and purple eyes.

I am just catching up, so I'm sorry if his was already addressed, but Baristan tells us that Ashara has "long dark hair" but it never states if that hair is brown or black.  I think it's possible her hair is black, which actually fit's with what we know of Darkstar, who also has some black in his hair.

 

21 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Ned and Ashara fell in bed together once again, and they conceived Edric. His nickname is Ned in honor of his father, but the role that Edric is mirroring is the bastard of Winterfell, and Ashara is the mirror of the daughter of Winterfell. The Daynes didn't have an heir with Arthur dead - just the two sisters, Ashara and Allyria, so Ned played the role of Bael the Bard and gave Ashara a bastard son, and now Starfall has an heir. Edric grew up believing that his parents were dead, and that Wylla was only his nursemaid. Edric's age seems to fit with the timing of Ned's visit after the war, so that's my new theory and I'm sticking to it!

 

15 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

If Edric was conceived later in 283, it would push his birthday into 284. If his birthday is later in the year and after he met Arya, he could be turning 13 yet in 297.

I am not trying to derail your theory, but does Edric's age match Ned's trip to Starfall? That happened 14-15 years before and Edric admits to being twelve. I guess he could be mislead about his own age, but Arya's guess on his age is that he is younger, not older. I think at this point in the story, Sansa is 13, which means she is older than Edric Dayne. Ned had to father Sansa after he returned to Catelyn after the war, so I don't see how he could have fathered Edric on Ashara after this.  It would have had to be before and Edric would have to be older than Sansa, but younger than Jon or Robb, if he his Ned's son.

 

7 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Is it possible Taena Merryweather's son is Robert's? I remember a theory about that. 

That is interesting. This is a theory I have not heard of. She certainly talks about her son but seems to want to keep him away from court and Cersei. If this boy looked like Robert, it would certainly be noticed by Cersei! And other's. Do you have a link to this theory?

 

6 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

GRRM has fleshed out the Targaryen family tree, not because he has a passion for them over the Starks, but because he safely can. There are no secrets there, which makes the mysterious Stark family tree look more suspect. GRRM has positioned the Starks as the heroes. We identify with them more, because we're privy to their internal dialogue. We understand them, so even when they do questionable things, we don't judge their behavior as "bad" or "evil".

This reminds me of that line about Ned telling Robert that Robert had the better claim to the throne, which leads me to believe that Ned also had a blood claim to the throne, just not as strong as Robert's. I think there is something hidden within the Stark lineage that will be a big reveal. I thought it was Aerea Targaryen, but that seems to be not what F&B tells us, although the read Aerea is in Oldtown using the name of her sister Rhaella. Aerea and Arya are too similar for me to ignore!

 

3 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Even Aegon who isn't supposed to be Elia's son was blessed by god of Rhoynar. 

Aegon would be Elia's son, which perhaps makes the link to the Rhoynar make sense.

 

Edited by St Daga
spelling, yikes!

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I know this thread is almost wrapped up, but in response to the OP:

On 5/7/2019 at 12:03 PM, Black Crow said:

So we come back to GRRM’s Jon, last seen bleeding out in the snow at Castle Black. Is he dead? Apparently so. Yet GRRM has teased otherwise from the infamous “you think he’s dead do you?” though a succession of other hints indicating that his character-arc has a ways to go. But if he does, GRRM has also predicted he will be a darker character.

I am probably one of the few people who think that Jon Snow will not need a resurrection because he isn't dead. Certainly he was stabbed but that doesn't equal death. He might be knocked into some kind of coma, which would mirror Bran's fall and coma, where I am certain he spent some conscious time in Summer. In this way, Jon's coma might lead him to spend some time in Ghost, but those comments that GRRM made last year about Cat and Beric being fire wight's, which also included Jon in the show-verse, made me feel even more strongly that Jon will not die from his stabbing. He could certainly come back darker, because we see that with Bran after his fall, too! A darker, sadder version of Bran!

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@St Daga I don't have a link sadly but I must come across this theory at Reddit, when I said Aegon isn't supposed to be son of Elia I was referring to popular fAegon theory, though I firmly believe Aegon is really Elia's son. 

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1 hour ago, St Daga said:

I am not trying to derail your theory, but does Edric's age match Ned's trip to Starfall? That happened 14-15 years before and Edric admits to being twelve. I guess he could be mislead about his own age, but Arya's guess on his age is that he is younger, not older. I think at this point in the story, Sansa is 13, which means she is older than Edric Dayne. Ned had to father Sansa after he returned to Catelyn after the war, so I don't see how he could have fathered Edric on Ashara after this.  It would have had to be before and Edric would have to be older than Sansa, but younger than Jon or Robb, if he his Ned's son.

Keep reading through the posts. JNR already brought up that Edric and Arya met in A Storm of Swords, which I believe occurs during 299 and may cover some of 300, so unless Ned and Ashara had an opportunity to hook up at a wedding or tourney a few years after the war, then he either doesn't know how old he really is or he simply is not Ned's bastard. I need to hold off revising my theory until we know what happens to Sansa and Gilly, since their lives are parallel to Ashara's. I might be able to dig up some clues in the titled chapters, otherwise I may have to wait until Winds is published.

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Talking about Faith of the Seven. From Tyrion get two passages of The seven pointed star that seem to be part of the Andal creation myth. This is the first one

Quote

The Maid brought him forth a girl as supple as a willow with eyes like deep blue pools and Hugor declared that he would have her for his bride. So the Mother made her fertile, and the Crone foretold that she would bear the king four-and-forty mighty sons. The Warrior gave strength to their arms, whilst the Smith wrought for each a suit of iron plates

The girl provided by the Maid matches the description of Tyene Sand whose eyes are also deep blue pools and is described as otherworldy

Quote

Lady Tyene's voice was gentle, and she looked as sweet as summer strawberries. Her mother had been a septa, and Tyene had an air of almost otherworldy innocence about her

Quote

Her hair was gold as well, and her eyes were deep blue pools . . . and yet somehow they reminded the captain of her father's eyes, though Oberyn's had been as black as night.

Somehow related: Tyrion takes the name Hugor Hill when he is aboard the Shy Maid

 

Edit: oops posted in the wrong Heresy thread

Edited by Tucu

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4 hours ago, JNR said:

Any of us could, in ten minutes, have come up with a better ending than that. 

To be fair, I just tried during a walk and I cannot come up with an ending at all. It just ends after waking the stone dragon. Then what ? The prophecy instruction ended. A central piece is missing. 

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