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Heresy 221 and the Children of Winterfell

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, TNTW said:

At this point I am really beginning to question the whole R+L=J thing. Almost seems too obvious. E+A=J seems to fit better. I am truly wondering if Howland Reed did take the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar home with him (as I do believe there was a child), and that Jon truly is Ned's bastard. Could Meera actually be that child? 

I know that's an old theory, but I am finally starting to believe it has a chance. It just seems like the Daynes and Dawn have to fit into this puzzle somewhere, and Howland Reed basically disappearing, for the most part, since then, could fit in there as well.

While not blatantly obvious, the breadcrumbs were lain to lead the reader astray, but IMO Rhaegar didn't have the motive nor the physical proximity to do it. Not only that, GRRM appears to reveal his secrets in waves of three, and the use of someone's armor in order to fool people is one such trio. The Riverlanders may have thought they saw Rhaegar's armor and banners, but I believe that was Tywin's ploy to undermine Rhaegar's budding support. It's a ploy that Tywin has utilized more than once.

The author implied that the real mystery was the identity of Jon's mother - not his father. D&D gave their answer and assumed GRRM's little smile and agreement to work with them meant that they had guessed correctly, but I suspect that GRRM was quite pleased with himself that they hadn't (guessed correctly). If they had, I don't think he would have been as pleased, because he has stated that he doesn't enjoy books where he can guess the ending, and he wanted to write stories that would delight the reader with surprises. (I'm not quoting him exactly)

So if Ned isn't lying that Jon is his bastard, then who could be the mother? I guess it still could be Lyanna if you believe Ned and Lyanna had an incestuous relationship, and that is why he was able to recognize Cersei and Jaime's.

Ned told Robert that Jon's mother was Wylla, and Edric Dayne backed that tale up, but where would Ned have come in contact with Wylla when she was in service to the Daynes? Ned presumably didn't go to Starfall until after the Rebellion was over, and yet Jon was already a babe in arms when Catelyn brought Robb to Winterfell, and the boys were said to be "of an age". If Jon wasn't conceived until after the war, he'd be nearly a year younger than Robb, but his capabilities of doing everything first and before Robb suggests otherwise.

The woman most associated with Ned as being a love interest was Ashara Dayne, and her candidacy would also place Ned in close proximity to Wylla. The servants of Winterfell shipped Ned to Ashara and caused Catelyn to wonder if the rumors were true, while Ned's angry reaction appeared to be a sore spot and looks to me like an admission of guilt.

While the reader has been distracted by the mystery, GRRM has been able to hide all sorts of details right under our noses with the true identity of the Others being just one of them. Do you think the central story is "who" sits the Iron Throne, or is it the issues that the Children have raised and their securing of Bran more important?

Edited by Feather Crystal

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Posted (edited)

Ned did the honorable thing and married for political gain, and it served him well by helping the rebels win. He turned his back on love, and I believe Ned kept Jon and concealed the identity of his mother in order to protect her. His son Robb, on the other hand, married for love, it hurt him politically and his rebel force was executed at a wedding feast. It was a true reversal of historical events.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

While not blatantly obvious, the breadcrumbs were lain to lead the reader astray, but IMO Rhaegar didn't have the motive nor the physical proximity to do it. Not only that, GRRM appears to reveal his secrets in waves of three, and the use of someone's armor in order to fool people is one such trio. The Riverlanders may have thought they saw Rhaegar's armor and banners, but I believe that was Tywin's ploy to undermine Rhaegar's budding support. It's a ploy that Tywin has utilized more than once.

The author implied that the real mystery was the identity of Jon's mother - not his father. D&D gave their answer and assumed GRRM's little smile and agreement to work with them meant that they had guessed correctly, but I suspect that GRRM was quite pleased with himself that they hadn't (guessed correctly). If they had, I don't think he would have been as pleased, because he has stated that he doesn't enjoy books where he can guess the ending, and he wanted to write stories that would delight the reader with surprises. (I'm not quoting him exactly)

So if Ned isn't lying that Jon is his bastard, then who could be the mother? I guess it still could be Lyanna if you believe Ned and Lyanna had an incestuous relationship, and that is why he was able to recognize Cersei and Jaime's.

Ned told Robert that Jon's mother was Wylla, and Edric Dayne backed that tale up, but where would Ned have come in contact with Wylla when she was in service to the Daynes? Ned presumably didn't go to Starfall until after the Rebellion was over, and yet Jon was already a babe in arms when Catelyn brought Robb to Winterfell, and the boys were said to be "of an age". If Jon wasn't conceived until after the war, he'd be nearly a year younger than Robb, but his capabilities of doing everything first and before Robb suggests otherwise.

The woman most associated with Ned as being a love interest was Ashara Dayne, and her candidacy would also place Ned in close proximity to Wylla. The servants of Winterfell shipped Ned to Ashara and caused Catelyn to wonder if the rumors were true, while Ned's angry reaction appeared to be a sore spot and looks to me like an admission of guilt.

While the reader has been distracted by the mystery, GRRM has been able to hide all sorts of details right under our noses with the true identity of the Others being just one of them. Do you think the central story is "who" sits the Iron Throne, or is it the issues that the Children have raised and their securing of Bran more important?

I definitely don't believe the story is about who sits the iron throne. The books are not GoT. Obviously ASOIAF is the big picture. A distinction the show has led too many to lose sight of.

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6 hours ago, TNTW said:

Euron wants Dany, but what he really wants is power. If he hooks up with Cersei, it will only be to use her. Imo.

I don't see Euron hooking up with Cersei as being out of character for him. 

However I don't see the queen enamoured with the silver haired, handsome but slightly effeminate Rheagar and her somewhat similar looking blonde brother, who was less than thrilled to end up with 'maiden's dream' Robert, falling for a smelly dark-haired one-eyed pirate. 

Book Euron and show Euron are also very different Eurons.  Show Euron almost reminds me more of book Littlefinger.   

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17 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I don't see Euron hooking up with Cersei as being out of character for him. 

However I don't see the queen enamoured with the silver haired, handsome but slightly effeminate Rheagar and her somewhat similar looking blonde brother, who was less than thrilled to end up with 'maiden's dream' Robert, falling for a smelly dark-haired one-eyed pirate. 

Book Euron and show Euron are also very different Eurons.  Show Euron almost reminds me more of book Littlefinger.   

Book Euron may be the craziest character yet, and that's saying something lol.

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4 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I don't see Euron hooking up with Cersei as being out of character for him. 

However I don't see the queen enamored with the silver haired, handsome but slightly effeminate Rheagar and her somewhat similar looking blonde brother, who was less than thrilled to end up with 'maiden's dream' Robert, falling for a smelly dark-haired one-eyed pirate. 

Book Euron and show Euron are also very different Eurons.  Show Euron almost reminds me more of book Littlefinger.   

Nobody said that Cersei would be enamored with Euron. As you said, she wasn't that enamored with Robert when she first learned she was going to marry him.

In other words, you don't have to be enamored with someone to hook up with them.

But Cersei is going to be in a very different place -- physically (both in terms of her location and her sexual agency), intellectually and emotionally -- by the time she decides to reach out to Euron.

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Cersei was with Robert as her father arranged the marriage.  If she does end up with Euron, it is either because she is attracted to him (unlikely) or has something to gain. 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

your insistence that Elia was not pregnant at the tourney is just preposterous. When, pray tell, do you think he was born?

Oh, I believe GRRM, who said Aegon was about a year old in the Sack.  Ergo, since the war lasted about a year, he was born roughly around the time the war began.

Harrenhal, as is easily shown using the canon, happened many months before the war began.

And what I've suggested is that Elia was not obviously pregnant at Harrenhal, so much so she was going to give birth shortly (as Yandel claims), and that's why no one ever remarks on her being pregnant in canon. 

It's tenuously possible she had already conceived Aegon, though.

10 hours ago, Black Crow said:

ah, well not necessarily. Until Britain [and America] switched from the Julian to the Gregorian calendar in 1752 the new year began on March 25 [Lady Day] which is why the tax year is normally calculated from the beginning of April in each year. 

OK, but the bottom line remains the same because Yandel spells out that the horrific winter came back "as the year drew to a close."  And that "on the last day of the year" snow started to fall.

And he claims that "with the coming of the new year," Rhaegar rode out with his six companions.  And then the winter got so incredibly bad, the Blackwater actually froze solid.

Ergo, whether "the new year" means January or March, Yandel's tale is that Rhaegar was abandoning his near-dead wife (of whom he was fond...) and his newborn heir... so that he could ride around Westeros in a blizzard. 

So I think when GRRM laughed, and said there was no way to know if the World book was true, and called out the possibility Yandel had rearranged some things, he wasn't kidding.

Edited by JNR

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9 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

IMO Rhaegar didn't have the motive nor the physical proximity to do it

Now on this we agree.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, JNR said:

Oh, I believe GRRM, who said Aegon was about a year old in the Sack.  Ergo, since the war lasted about a year, he was born roughly around the time the war began.

Harrenhal, as is easily shown using the canon, happened many months before the war began.

And what I've suggested is that Elia was not obviously pregnant at Harrenhal, so much so she was going to give birth shortly (as Yandel claims), and that's why no one ever remarks on her being pregnant in canon. 

It's tenuously possible she had already conceived Aegon, though.

OK, but the bottom line remains the same because Yandel spells out that the horrific winter came back "as the year drew to a close."  And that "on the last day of the year" snow started to fall.

And he claims that "with the coming of the new year," Rhaegar rode out with his six companions.  And then the winter got so incredibly bad, the Blackwater actually froze solid.

Ergo, whether "the new year" means January or March, Yandel's tale is that Rhaegar was abandoning his near-dead wife (of whom he was fond...) and his newborn heir... so that he could ride around Westeros in a blizzard. 

So I think when GRRM laughed, and said there was no way to know if the World book was true, and called out the possibility Yandel had rearranged some things, he wasn't kidding.

The World Book places the tourney near the end of 281 and that the False Spring only lasted two months, so if Aegon was born before Rhaegar took to the road at the beginning of 282, then Elia was noticeably pregnant at Harrenhal. Just because no one specifically mentions her condition doesn’t negate it. It is the timing of the events that prove it.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Nobody said that Cersei would be enamored with Euron. As you said, she wasn't that enamored with Robert when she first learned she was going to marry him.

In other words, you don't have to be enamored with someone to hook up with them.

But Cersei is going to be in a very different place -- physically (both in terms of her location and her sexual agency), intellectually and emotionally -- by the time she decides to reach out to Euron.

I agree, it's about power.  I'm guessing that Euron will make a play for the Iron Throne and Cersei will calculate that she needs his navy. But it will not be the farce that D&D provided.  Euron is a frightening character in the books and he's a clown in the show.  The Forsaken Chapter in TWOW is very frightening:
 

Spoiler

 

- Euron sitting the IT with the gods impaled on the throne

- the unknown woman laughing hysterically

- the servitors of the House of Undying

All feature in Aeron's vision.  After seducing a young girl and taking her for his salt wife; he then cuts out her tongue and installs his pregnant wife and his brother Aeron to the prow of his ship like gruesome living mastheads.   These are the same sacrificial ingredients in Dany's tent ritual with Mirri Maaz Duur.

It's also frightening that Euron has cut off Pyat Pree's legs and hung him from the rafters in a mockery of Bran, I think.

 

 Whatever designs he has on the Iron Throne, Cersei would just be another conquest/casualty.  

Edited by LynnS

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@LynnS I always hated B+A/R+A theories because I am a hopeless Ned/Ashara shipper but I have to prepare myself for everything :/

@JNR thank you answer :)

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Posted (edited)

I don't see any reason for show Euron to even help Cersei. Cersei has nothing, his Iron Fleet of a one trick ambush pony needs. If he wants the Iron throne, he should just raid it from King`s Landing and transport it to Pyke. Pay the Iron prize. 

5 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Cersei was with Robert as her father arranged the marriage.  If she does end up with Euron, it is either because she is attracted to him (unlikely) or has something to gain. 

Maybe he looks like Rhaegar, so that the woman who does not want to remarry and idolizes Rhaegar, has a reason. :smoking:

More serious, Euron will more likely manipulate Cersei into marrying him. Or just saltwife her. 

Edited by SirArthur

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

@LynnS I always hated B+A/R+A theories because I am a hopeless Ned/Ashara shipper but I have to prepare myself for everything :/

@JNR thank you answer :)

 

I'm wary and weary of RLJ.  We are given almost nothing on Lyanna or Rhaegar, but we are given stuff like this:
 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Sansa VI

"Gentle, pious, good-hearted Willas Tyrell. Be grateful you were spared, he would have bored you spitless. The old woman is not boring, though, I'll grant her that. A fearsome old harridan, and not near as frail as she pretends. When I came to Highgarden to dicker for Margaery's hand, she let her lord son bluster while she asked pointed questions about Joffrey's nature. I praised him to the skies, to be sure . . . whilst my men spread disturbing tales amongst Lord Tyrell's servants. That is how the game is played.

"I also planted the notion of Ser Loras taking the white. Not that I suggested it, that would have been too crude. But men in my party supplied grisly tales about how the mob had killed Ser Preston Greenfield and raped the Lady Lollys, and slipped a few silvers to Lord Tyrell's army of singers to sing of Ryam Redwyne, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands.

 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran VI

That was the one thing they could agree on, Bran and Rickon and Robb the Lord; they all wished Father was here. But Lord Eddard was a thousand leagues away, a captive in some dungeon, a hunted fugitive running for his life, or even dead. No one seemed to know for certain; every traveler told a different tale, each more terrifying than the last. The heads of Father's guardsmen were rotting on the walls of the Red Keep, impaled on spikes. King Robert was dead at Father's hands. The Baratheons had laid siege to King's Landing. Lord Eddard had fled south with the king's wicked brother Renly. Arya and Sansa had been murdered by the Hound. Mother had killed Tyrion the Imp and hung his body from the walls of Riverrun. Lord Tywin Lannister was marching on the Eyrie, burning and slaughtering as he went. One wine-sodden taleteller even claimed that Rhaegar Targaryen had returned from the dead and was marshaling a vast host of ancient heroes on Dragonstone to reclaim his father's throne.

 

 

Edited by LynnS

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12 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm wary and weary of RLJ.  We are given almost nothing on Lyanna or Rhaegar, but we are given stuff like this:
 

 

You are right, I sometime think if GRRM hates bards or something, should I watch Tom from brotherhood closely? It is possible R+X=D and Y+L=J have more chance of happening in TWOW then RLJ. 

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14 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm wary and weary of RLJ.  We are given almost nothing on Lyanna or Rhaegar, but we are given stuff like this:
 

 

Propaganda is a powerful weapon indeed!

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6 hours ago, LynnS said:

I agree, it's about power.  I'm guessing that Euron will make a play for the Iron Throne and Cersei will calculate that she needs his navy. But it will not be the farce that D&D provided.  Euron is a frightening character in the books and he's a clown in the show.  The Forsaken Chapter in TWOW is very frightening:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

- Euron sitting the IT with the gods impaled on the throne

- the unknown woman laughing hysterically

- the servitors of the House of Undying

All feature in Aeron's vision.  After seducing a young girl and taking her for his salt wife; he then cuts out her tongue and installs his pregnant wife and his brother Aeron to the prow of his ship like gruesome living mastheads.   These are the same sacrificial ingredients in Dany's tent ritual with Mirri Maaz Duur.

It's also frightening that Euron has cut off Pyat Pree's legs and hung him from the rafters in a mockery of Bran, I think.

 

 Whatever designs he has on the Iron Throne, Cersei would just be another conquest/casualty.  

Of course that's operating under the notion that Cersei won't want revenge against Aegon.

Remember: when Aegon takes the city, she's going to have to run for her life. Her children will probably all be dead at that point: if Dumb&Dumber can be somewhat taken seriously, Myrcella might die at the hand of the Sand Snakes and Tommen will die as a casualty in the tug of war between his mother and his wife. One of them may even kill themselves (all the more painful)

If she survives The Winds of Winter (I am 99% sure she does), she will be out for blood.

5 hours ago, SirArthur said:

I don't see any reason for show Euron to even help Cersei. Cersei has nothing, his Iron Fleet of a one trick ambush pony needs. If he wants the Iron throne, he should just raid it from King`s Landing and transport it to Pyke. Pay the Iron prize. 

Maybe he looks like Rhaegar, so that the woman who does not want to remarry and idolizes Rhaegar, has a reason. :smoking:

More serious, Euron will more likely manipulate Cersei into marrying him. Or just saltwife her. 

I think people forget exactly how rich the book Lannisters are. They are beyond filthy rich. The Lannisters of Casterly Rock are sitting on top of not just one gold mine but several. There are also silver mines and mines for rubies and other precious gems underneath the Rock. That's not going to be hand-waved away.

Don't forget the Iron Throne is similar to the United States of America: years of recklessness, incompetence, negligence and (in the case of Littlefinger's tenure as master of coin) treachery has put the entire nation in a hole. And Tywin paid cash for everything. If Cersei makes it back home, she would have the power to strangle the Seven Kingdoms with her purse-strings. Not that she would be patient enough to do that but....she's going to be rich.

If Euron is forced to abandon Oldtown and takes an unexpected hit in the second Kingsmoot where the truth about the deaths of his brothers is revealed, Euron will need her just as much if not more than she needs him.

She'll be his rebound so to speak.

Who knows? Cersei might genuinely come to like him? Even though he'll probably kill her (she'll have deserved it but it will be horrific to read), the sex would be great.

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1 minute ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I think people forget exactly how rich the book Lannisters are. They are beyond filthy rich. The Lannisters of Casterly Rock are sitting on top of not just one gold mine but several. There are also silver mines and mines for rubies and other precious gems underneath the Rock. That's not going to be hand-waved away.

Euron himself raided Lannisport at the start of the Greyjoy rebellion. 

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Posted (edited)

The Iron Bank has called in their debts, so if Cersei refuses to pay the crown's debt with Lannister gold then she'll have more than one creditor coming after her. If they hire a Faceless Man to get their revenge, maybe Arya will get to scratch her off her list?

Myrcella won't die until after Tommen dies and she herself is crowned - for real this time. Westeros may not accept her in the line of succession, but she may end up marrying whomever sits the Iron Throne after Tommen. If she wants to keep Dorne as an ally, Cersei would be wise to go ahead with the marriage to Trystane.

The Faith Militant will grow in power until they wrest control of Tommen from Cersei's hands. I'm not sure how she's going to get herself out of trouble with Pycelle and Kevan dead. All she has is Maester Qyburn just like in the mummer's version. There's only so much Ser Robert Strong can do to keep the High Sparrow at bay. Cersei is screwed unless Euron does step in to offer his assistance, but if the Forsaken chapter is any indication, he'll be a little busy at the beginning of Winds. I think he's waiting for Victarion to capture a dragon and bring him back Daenerys. Surely he knows Victarion's intentions, but I'm sure he's got a surprise in store for Victarion too. Euron and Victarion are replaying the roles of Bloodraven and Bittersteel. The latter became enemies with Bloodraven coming out on top as the victor, but with the reversal of historic events, Victarion may have a chance if he manages to bind one of the dragons to himself.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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9 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The World Book places the tourney near the end of 281 and that the False Spring only lasted two months, so if Aegon was born before Rhaegar took to the road at the beginning of 282, then Elia was noticeably pregnant at Harrenhal.

Citing the World book as your authority isn't a help.  I'm just going to quote... again... the Vulture interview.

Quote

So, unless you want to be as oblivious as Cersei, it might be worth taking the very deep dive, so long as you keep in mind that The World shouldn’t necessarily be taken as gospel. The book is written from the viewpoint of a maester at the Citadel, one who hopes to pass its knowledge on to someone sitting on the Iron Throne. As such, the author may have … rearranged events to suit the interests of a particular royal family. “So who knows if it’s really true or not!” Martin chuckled.

As it happens, I don't think we should be "as oblivious as Cersei."

Given the long gap between Harrenhal and the Rebellion, there is simply no way Aegon was born immediately after Harrenhal and yet (per SSM) was a year old at the time of the Sack.

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