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Black Crow

Heresy 221 and the Children of Winterfell

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Posted (edited)

@Pretty Pig  Sorry to go off topic here but I want to mention it before I forget. 

The mysterious house with the red door...  I came across this passage while re-reading GoT:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VI

They wandered for half the morning. She saw a beautiful feathered cloak from the Summer Isles, and took it for a gift. In return, she gave the merchant a silver medallion from her belt. That was how it was done among the Dothraki. A birdseller taught a green-and-red parrot to say her name, and Dany laughed again, yet still refused to take him. What would she do with a green-and-red parrot in a khalasar? She did take a dozen flasks of scented oils, the perfumes of her childhood; she had only to close her eyes and sniff them and she could see the big house with the red door once more. When Doreah looked longingly at a fertility charm at a magician's booth, Dany took that too and gave it to the handmaid, thinking that now she should find something for Irri and Jhiqui as well.

It isn't just the lemon tree that Dany remembers about the house with the red door but the scented oils and perfumes of her childhood.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VI

But the Western Market smelled of home.

As Irri and Jhiqui helped her from her litter, she sniffed, and recognized the sharp odors of garlic and pepper, scents that reminded Dany of days long gone in the alleys of Tyrosh and Myr and brought a fond smile to her face. Under that she smelled the heady sweet perfumes of Lys. She saw slaves carrying bolts of intricate Myrish lace and fine wools in a dozen rich colors.

 

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Economy

Lys is deeply involved in the slave trade, with slaves outnumbering freeborn Lyseni three to one. Lys is most famous for their bed slaves, and Lyseni are known to be famously voracious in their search for comely young boys and fair maids with their pillow houses. Lys is also known for the breeding of slaves, mating beauty with beauty, hoping to produce the most lovely courtesans and bed slaves.[1]

Lysene coins are oval in shape and have a naked woman stamped on them,[20] the native love goddess of Lys.[1]

Lys makes red and white wine,[3] as well as fine tapestries.[21] The alchemists of Lys are known to make poisons, including the strangler[22] and the tears of Lys.[23] Heady sweet perfumes also come from the city.[3] The Lyseni also make fine long dirks.[12]

There are no other free cities that list their economy as primarily brothels, perfumes and scented oils.   It's also a place where lemons could grow.

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Lys was founded as a colony of the Valyrian Freehold on an island in the Summer Sea, near the Broken Arm of Dorne and the Orange Shore of Essos.[24][25] Founded by wealthy merchants and nobles, Lys was mostly a trading colony.[25] Due to its climate, Lys soon became a resort destination of sorts for the dragonlords of old Valyria. The sunny island is fertile with palm and fruit trees, and the surrounding blue-green waters are filled with fish.[1]

 

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People

More than anywhere else in the known world, the blood of Old Valyria still runs strong in the Lyseni, who are regarded as beautiful. Even the smallfolk in Lys have the pale skin, silver-gold hair, and purple, lilac, and pale blue eyes of the dragonlords of old. Many of the nobility in Lys have produced infamous beauties, and Targaryen kings and princes are known to have looked at Lys for wives and paramours.[1] The people of Lys are know to curl and perfume their hair.[3]

The Lysene tongue is a corruption of High Valyrian.[14]George R. R. Martin has described the Lysene dialect to be a musical, flowing, liquid tongue.[15] Like the Braavosi and Pentoshi, the Lyseni are great lovers of song.[16]

 

This would be a perfect place to hide Dany since her appearance wouldn't stand out but would be the norm for the population.  Dany also learned High Valyrian as a child.

The house with the red door could be in the brothel district:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

But it was not the plains Dany saw then. It was King's Landing and the great Red Keep that Aegon the Conqueror had built. It was Dragonstone where she had been born. In her mind's eye they burned with a thousand lights, a fire blazing in every window. In her mind's eye, all the doors were red.

 

 

Edited by LynnS

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There was always the strange Danny - Jorah - Lynesse Hightower connection and if accumulates in all of them living in Lys as well as other people like Tywin visiting Lys earlier in his life, then I think it is safe to assume there is someone important for Westeros in Lys. 

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Pretty Pig has a particular interest in the house with the red door.  I've never come across anything about memories evoked by perfumes on the forums; since the focus has always been on the lemon tree and whether or not this was in Braavos.  Red doors are synonymous with brothels but they can be anywhere.  It seems to me that Lys fits the bill on all counts including Dany's knowledge of high valyrian.  It would be a good place to hide her in plain sight.   Why Viserys would tell her that the house was in Braavos is probably not that much of a mystery.  People (in story) would question whether or not she is in fact his sister. 

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On 5/9/2019 at 5:59 PM, Black Crow said:

We miserable heretics [among others] have been questioning R+L=J for years. Its obvious nature does suggest it may be a red herring to distract from something else entirely and not necessarily some other hidden heir

As I remarked in the OP the mummers' treatment of the issue is interesting in that they seem to be following fan theory in "confirming" rather than anything GRRM has told them because having proclaimed the truth of R+L=J they clearly have no idea what to do with that revelation. The faithful have variously and confidently proclaimed him the rightful heir to the Iron Throne - not interested. He has also of course been proclaimed Azor Ahai/Prince that was Promised the union of Ice and Fire - nope, that doesn't happen either and the big bad got offed by Arya. Now granted we're dealing with the mummers, but if either [or both] scenario belonged to GRRM there should surely be some hint of this in the outcome

 

This is what has tipped me over to the non-believe camp, although I'm still about 52/48 :P

I feel like this started with the annulment.  They had this preposterous storyline to make him a contender for the Iron Throne, while, even if he is half Targ, it's his blood that's important, not his legitimacy.  I don't watch the abomination, but I keep up to date with what's happening and I just can't believe that this is the ending we will get.  Like you said, they just don't know what to do with the big "revelation".

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Pretty Pig has a particular interest in the house with the red door.  I've never come across anything about memories evoked by perfumes on the forums; since the focus has always been on the lemon tree and whether or not this was in Braavos.  Red doors are synonymous with brothels but they can be anywhere.  It seems to me that Lys fits the bill on all counts including Dany's knowledge of high valyrian.  It would be a good place to hide her in plain sight.   Why Viserys would tell her that the house was in Braavos is probably not that much of a mystery.  People (in story) would question whether or not she is in fact his sister. 

So Dany was born in 284 and the Greyjoy rebellion was in 289. Afterwards in 293 Jorah moves with his wife to Lys. This was between Dany being 5 and 9. Is there a possibility the events are connected ? I would say it should be in her early life, maybe 290 latest. 

Also funny that Connington seems to be in Lys after the rebellion. 

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2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

So Dany was born in 284 and the Greyjoy rebellion was in 289. Afterwards in 293 Jorah moves with his wife to Lys. This was between Dany being 5 and 9. Is there a possibility the events are connected ? I would say it should be in her early life, maybe 290 latest. 

Also funny that Connington seems to be in Lys after the rebellion. 

I don't know sorry.  Yes, Lys seems to be a place where exiles turn up.

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One of the problems of Ned having an affair after marriage is finding the time for the mother to realize she’s pregnant, get the happy news to Ned, deliver the babe, and get Jon to Winterfell all while Ned is far south of the Neck.  How do you suggest Jon and his wetnurse got to Winterfell ahead of Ned and Catelyn? The first time Catelyn saw Moat Caitlin, she implied Ned was with her.

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Oberyn Martell visited Ser Willem Darry when they were living in Braavos, so when did he make the move to Lys?

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13 hours ago, JNR said:

An awfully convenient assumption.  I'm not at all sure he is, and I really don't think it can be demonstrated.

If we're honest, I think we have to admit that if Ned was anywhere near 21 when Jon was born, and he was 18 at Harrenhal, there really must have been a long gap between Harrenhal and the war.

Well, you just trust the World book implicitly on this stuff. 

I'm not blaming you for it, but you're doing the exact thing we were warned by GRRM not to do:

The World book also clearly contradicts GRRM on the timing of Aegon's birth, so we can believe it, or we can believe him. I choose to believe GRRM's statement. 

Sure.  A major influence on GRRM, as he's said in public.

That's true; you can get to the long gap between Harrenhal and the war without pondering birthdays or ages at all.

Now, whether Aegon's birth tells us where Rhaegar was about the time the war began is more debatable, mainly because Dany's HOTU visions are only that: visions.   Not established facts. 

However, I'm pretty sure that vision is true, and certainly the fan consensus is that it's true -- all discussion of "three heads of the dragon" assumes it's true. 

Dany herself seems to have had little/no doubt:

 
 

Where in the text does it say Ned was 21 when Jon was born? 

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5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Where in the text does it say Ned was 21 when Jon was born? 

I haven't stopped by for a while but this last pages discussion caught my attention. It doesn't say Ned's age in the the text when Jon was born specifically, but at the start of our story, we are told by Bran that Eddard is 35 and we know that both Jon and Robb are 14. So approximately age 21 works for Ned at the birth of both of these boys, although he could have been somewhere in his 20th year as well, but closer to 21 than 20.

Now, we are told that Ned was 18 at Harrenhal, but he could also be just barely 18 or a month away from turning 19, GRRM is almost taunting us with the vagueness. 

 

13 hours ago, LynnS said:

Pretty Pig has a particular interest in the house with the red door.  I've never come across anything about memories evoked by perfumes on the forums; since the focus has always been on the lemon tree and whether or not this was in Braavos.  Red doors are synonymous with brothels but they can be anywhere.  It seems to me that Lys fits the bill on all counts including Dany's knowledge of high valyrian.  It would be a good place to hide her in plain sight.   Why Viserys would tell her that the house was in Braavos is probably not that much of a mystery.  People (in story) would question whether or not she is in fact his sister. 

Doesn't the red door/brothel connection in this theory relate to the fact that doorways of brothels are lighted by a red lamp? We see red lamps or glass used often to describe a brothel. So, that could mean that Dany's door was never actually red but that is just appeared that way. This certainly seems to fit how slyly GRRM can be with his clues, and also gives us a nice backstory for why Dany's early memories don't fit what Viserys seems to remember.

 

18 hours ago, LynnS said:

I came across this passage while red-reading GoT:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VI

They wandered for half the morning. She saw a beautiful feathered cloak from the Summer Isles, and took it for a gift. In return, she gave the merchant a silver medallion from her belt. That was how it was done among the Dothraki. A birdseller taught a green-and-red parrot to say her name, and Dany laughed again, yet still refused to take him. What would she do with a green-and-red parrot in a khalasar? She did take a dozen flasks of scented oils, the perfumes of her childhood; she had only to close her eyes and sniff them and she could see the big house with the red door once more. When Doreah looked longingly at a fertility charm at a magician's booth, Dany took that too and gave it to the handmaid, thinking that now she should find something for Irri and Jhiqui as well.

It isn't just the lemon tree that Dany remembers about the house with the red door but the scented oils and perfumes of her childhood.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VI

But the Western Market smelled of home.

As Irri and Jhiqui helped her from her litter, she sniffed, and recognized the sharp odors of garlic and pepper, scents that reminded Dany of days long gone in the alleys of Tyrosh and Myr and brought a fond smile to her face. Under that she smelled the heady sweet perfumes of Lys. She saw slaves carrying bolts of intricate Myrish lace and fine wools in a dozen rich colors.

 

The perfumes and oils are a nice hint, and a good catch. This is from the Western Market in Vaes Dothrak. I have always wondered how far west this implies. Is it all the free cities and Westeros? It's crafty if GRRM intends us to think of Westeros, when he is only meaning some place west, but not as far west as Westeros! Ironic if Dany and Doreah are from the same place, which would be Lys, the home of pillow houses. They share a resemblance and perhaps that is for a reason, much like Myrcella has her handmaid Rosamund who looks so much like her, although so far I see so idea that Doreah ever played as a stand in for Dany.

 

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30 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Doesn't the red door/brothel connection in this theory relate to the fact that doorways of brothels are lighted by a red lamp? We see red lamps or glass used often to describe a brothel. So, that could mean that Dany's door was never actually red but that is just appeared that way. This certainly seems to fit how slyly GRRM can be with his clues, and also gives us a nice backstory for why Dany's early memories don't fit what Viserys seems to remember.

Yes, the door isn't necessarily painted red, but could be lit with a red lantern.  That effect has been described for Chataya's brothel in Kingslanding.  Yes, the story Viserys gives about their travels is somewhat suspect.

Quote

The perfumes and oils are a nice hint, and a good catch. This is from the Western Market in Vaes Dothrak. I have always wondered how far west this implies. Is it all the free cities and Westeros? It's crafty if GRRM intends us to think of Westeros, when he is only meaning some place west, but not as far west as Westeros! Ironic if Dany and Doreah are from the same place, which would be Lys, the home of pillow houses. They share a resemblance and perhaps that is for a reason, much like Myrcella has her handmaid Rosamund who looks so much like her, although so far I see so idea that Doreah ever played as a stand in for Dany.

I think she means the west as in the Free Cities rather than Westeros.

6 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Oberyn Martell visited Ser Willem Darry when they were living in Braavos, so when did he make the move to Lys?

I'm not sure they were living in Braavos.  Ser Willem may have just travelled to Braavos to sign the marriage agreement, which says nothing about Dany.  If you are hiding the Targaryen heirs; it wouldn't be a good idea to have them with you or meet in the city where they are being hidden. 

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Posted (edited)

In terms of evoking memories smell is by far the most powerful stimulent - it certainly is for me and I've no reason to doubt that I'm normal, so I find the Lys theory very plausible.

But where does it take us?

Edited by Black Crow

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14 hours ago, Neddy's Girl said:

This is what has tipped me over to the non-believe camp, although I'm still about 52/48 :P

I feel like this started with the annulment.  They had this preposterous storyline to make him a contender for the Iron Throne, while, even if he is half Targ, it's his blood that's important, not his legitimacy.  I don't watch the abomination, but I keep up to date with what's happening and I just can't believe that this is the ending we will get.  Like you said, they just don't know what to do with the big "revelation".

Perhaps paradoxically I am receptive to the possibility of R+L=J being true. Where I'd argue the the problem lies is in the outcome. Over the years I've seen so many fanciful scenarios as to the manner of the revelation - usually centering around stuff like the discovery of Rhaegar's harp in Lyanna's tomb and so on and so forth - and Jon being spoken of not only as the rightful heir to the Targaryen throne, and as Azor Ahai, the champion of Light/Fire who is going to dish the Ice once and for all; a contradictory outcome for someone proclaimed to be the union of Ice and Fire.

Consequently I have argued that R+L=J is a red herring in that whilst it may be true, what is important is that he is a son of Winterfell rather than of Valyria. As to the bitter-sweet ending, once again far from seeing Jon/Aemon/Aegon Stark/Targaryen ascending to the empty throne, there is the little matter of Jon dying in the snow at Castle Black and Danaerys the Dragonlord almost certainly dying in Khal Drogo's funeral pyre. Both may be walking afterwards, but I very strongly suspect neither are human.

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I would not look for any brothel in Lys, but for a fiery one: the great Red Temple. Here there is a convergence of prostitution, fire and the blood of the dragonlords ( probably including from Saera and Brightflame). The Breaker of chains might be an engineered slave of R'hllor

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

In terms of evoking memories smell is by far the most powerful stimulent - it certainly is for me and I've no reason to doubt that I'm, so I find the Lys theory very plausible.

But where does it take us?

I don't know if it takes us anywhere.  LOL I do think the inconsistencies in Viserys' stories of their travels are examples of unreliable narration.  Either Dany misremembers what Viserys has told her about it, because of her young age; or Viserys is changing the story, because he is preoccupied with how the story of his reign will be told.  Starting his exile in a brothel may be an inglorious part of the story he doesn't want told; so he edits accordingly.

   

Edited by LynnS

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Tucu said:

I would not look for any brothel in Lys, but for a fiery one: the great Red Temple. Here there is a convergence of prostitution, fire and the blood of the dragonlords ( probably including from Saera and Brightflame). The Breaker of chains might be an engineered slave of R'hllor

I lean towards Dany as the pwip and so then she is Rhaegar's sister, but I'm inclined to think Rhaegar and Ashara's daughter.

The great red temple at Volantis would make a good dragon pit.  I have a gut feeling that R'hllor is a very old dragon.

Edited by LynnS

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Where in the text does it say Ned was 21 when Jon was born?

He was either 21, or close to it, if when AGOT begins, Ned was 35... Jon was 14... and Jon didn't turn 15 until he had been at Castle Black for some time.   

In the same period of time it took Jon to turn 15, Ned could have turned 36. 

But Yandel's tale is deeply problematic as a whole for other reasons.  Boiled down, it looks like this:

• The false spring happened in the last two months of the year, and was deemed over when winter returned at the very end of the year

• Elia, known to be frail and sickly, went to Harrenhal... despite being within a few weeks of giving birth

• No one in canon recalls her being pregnant

• Soon after Harrenhal, she gave birth to Aegon

• Immediately after that -- "with the turn of the new year" -- Rhaegar left on a long road trip for no apparent reason

• He did not care that his wife Elia had just nearly died -- his road trip was more important

• He also did not care about the winter being so incredibly bad, for weeks after he left, that the Blackwater literally froze over

This is just a disaster of a story, the sort of failed continuity we see in the show all the time.  It's also  the kind of logical mess GRRM's remarks warned us to expect.

Edited by JNR

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, St Daga said:

I haven't stopped by for a while but this last pages discussion caught my attention. It doesn't say Ned's age in the the text when Jon was born specifically, but at the start of our story, we are told by Bran that Eddard is 35 and we know that both Jon and Robb are 14. So approximately age 21 works for Ned at the birth of both of these boys, although he could have been somewhere in his 20th year as well, but closer to 21 than 20.

Now, we are told that Ned was 18 at Harrenhal, but he could also be just barely 18 or a month away from turning 19, GRRM is almost taunting us with the vagueness. 

The years that events occurred are not in dispute. The False Spring and the tourney at Harrenhal occurred in 281 when Jaime was 15 and Ned was 18. I believe both Jaime and Ned had birthday's after the tourney, so by the end of the year Jaime is 16 and Ned 19.

In 282, Aegon was born, Lyanna went missing, and Brandon died when he was 20. Ned married Catelyn when he was 19.

In 283, Ned was 20 for the Sack of Kings Landing. Robb Stark was born this year while Ned was yet 20.

The book of A Game of Thrones is widely believed to begin in early 298. Joffrey's 12th name day tourney and Jon Arryn's death two weeks later occurred (IMO) at the end of 297. I believe my theory is correct, because Joffrey died when he was 14 at his wedding feast to Margaery at the beginning of the new year 300, his 14th name day tourney being at the end of the previous year.

Ned had just turned 35 in Nov/Dec of 297, and it seems he likely died before his 36th birthday at the end of 298.

Also in 298, Robb is 14 at the beginning of our story, but turns 15 before his father's beheading. Since I believe Jon's birth month is August, a few months after Robb's name day Jon actually turned 16, but he and Catelyn both believed he turned 15 also. I believe Ned fudged Jon's birthday to place it after Robb's. That way he could both lessen Catelyn's fears that Jon would inherit before Robb, and disguise Jon's real mother, because I believe Ned wanted to protect Ashara's honor as a noble.

Other significant indicators of the timeline are pointed out early in year 300. Tyrion thinks back on Jaime's knighting 18 years ago. If you try to calculate this using simple subtraction year 300 - 281 (the year he was knighted) = 19 years ago, but Tyrion is not wrong. The 19th anniversary of Jaime's knighting wouldn't take place until October of year 300.

Another example is Jon Connington's recollection that it has been 17 years since he was defeated in the Battle of the Bells. If you use simple subtraction and take year 300 and subtract 17 years ago, you would assume the Battle of the Bells occurred in 283, which is possible if the battle occurred in January or February of 283. But, It is also possible that the Battle of the Bells occurred sometime during the second half of 282, then it wouldn't be 18 years ago until you reached that month in year 300.

 

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

In terms of evoking memories smell is by far the most powerful stimulent - it certainly is for me and I've no reason to doubt that I'm, so I find the Lys theory very plausible.

But where does it take us?

Having Dany hide in a brothel doesn't really change the story at all, but the brothel symbolism is central as an overarching theme. Maidenheads are commodities in medieval culture. Fathers act like pimps negotiating alliances selling their daughters like prostitutes. Dany may remember Ser Willem as a lovable old bear, but he was selling her maidenhead like any other father of Westeros would do. So while she may have been somewhat safe in the house with the red door and lemon tree outback, Ser Willem was busy trying to secure a deal with the Prince of Dorne. The lemon tree signifies that somebody pissed all over this alliance.

I believe GRRM has used lemons to indicate betrayals. Arianne's plot to crown Myrcella was one such betrayal. Somebody told Doran her plans, and I believe her trusted milk brother, Ser Andrey Dalt, is to blame. Andrey, aka Drey, is brother to Ser Deziel Dalt, the Knight of Lemonwood. There are connections between 'lemons' and 'pissing', as in 'pissing' all over someone's plans to symbolically indicate a betrayal. Lem Lemoncloak is going to turn out to be a betrayer. I suspect he's actually one of King Aerys Kingsguard. GRRM also utilizes the lemon symbolism with Sansa and her love of lemon cakes. She not only betrayed her family by denying she saw what went on between Joffrey and Arya, she then suffers the sourness of the lemons as a result.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Perhaps paradoxically I am receptive to the possibility of R+L=J being true. Where I'd argue the the problem lies is in the outcome. Over the years I've seen so many fanciful scenarios as to the manner of the revelation - usually centering around stuff like the discovery of Rhaegar's harp in Lyanna's tomb and so on and so forth - and Jon being spoken of not only as the rightful heir to the Targaryen throne, and as Azor Ahai, the champion of Light/Fire who is going to dish the Ice once and for all; a contradictory outcome for someone proclaimed to be the union of Ice and Fire.

Consequently I have argued that R+L=J is a red herring in that whilst it may be true, what is important is that he is a son of Winterfell rather than of Valyria. As to the bitter-sweet ending, once again far from seeing Jon/Aemon/Aegon Stark/Targaryen ascending to the empty throne, there is the little matter of Jon dying in the snow at Castle Black and Danaerys the Dragonlord almost certainly dying in Khal Drogo's funeral pyre. Both may be walking afterwards, but I very strongly suspect neither are human.

I wouldn't be disappointed if RLJ is true, but I also feel it's been demonstrated just how hollow focussing on his "Targaryeness" becomes.  I've not considered Dany being dead before, but I agree that there must be consequences from Jon's death. 

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8 minutes ago, JNR said:

Elia, known to be frail and sickly, went to Harrenhal... despite being within a few weeks of giving birth

• No one in canon recalls her being pregnant

• Soon after Harrenhal, she gave birth to Aegon

Lets just focus on Aegon's conception and birth, which we know was in 282 if he was to be about a year when he died in 283.

Elia and Rhaegar married in 280 and had Rhaenys that same year. This only gives us three months to play with. Elia and Rhaegar can marry Jan, Feb, or Mar and still have Rhaenys in Oct, Nov, or Dec.

The text says Elia took six months to recover. This means she got pregnant six months after Rhaenys was born. The three conception months are: April, May, and June 281. Now add nine months and Aegon's birth month is either: Jan, Feb, or Mar 282.

The Tourney of Harrenhal was November of 281. Elia was either 7, 6, or 5 months pregnant. Doesn't matter that nobody mentioned it. The timing proves it.

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