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Dany’s Three Betrayals

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Just now, Targaryen Peas said:

Dany didn't make him swear. And even when he showed her that he would probably not lie to his family. She answered by something like "there's only one way for us to be together" Implying that he could still do it.

Jon though, made Sansa swear. And he didn't reveal anything until they both swore.

So today swearing means nothing, but in that setting, and for Jon before anyone else. 

Yes, it is a betrayal. 

And, as someone pointed out earlier, Sansa swore in front of a heart tree as well. 

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37 minutes ago, Targaryen Peas said:

Dany didn't make him swear. And even when he showed her that he would probably not lie to his family. She answered by something like "there's only one way for us to be together" Implying that he could still do it.

Jon though, made Sansa swear. And he didn't reveal anything until they both swore.

So today swearing means nothing, but in that setting, and for Jon before anyone else. 

Yes, it is a betrayal. 

If Jon wanted it to stay a secret he should not have told anyone. Not Sansa, not Arya. I am pretty sure even he knows deep down that their distrust and fear of Dany is reasonable. Jon knows what she did to Sam’s family. 

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55 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

And, as someone pointed out earlier, Sansa swore in front of a heart tree as well. 

It was a dumb thing to ask of her. If he didn’t want anyone to know he should not have told anyone. Period. So part of him DOES want people to know.

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1 hour ago, Hippocras said:

I am pretty sure even he knows deep down that their distrust and fear of Dany is reasonable. Jon knows what she did to Sam’s family. 

Well, she burned them. And at this point, I don't think how they die matters. 

Any other ruler would have ruined them a way or another. Didn't Tywin scheme the red weddings.

They are both fighting a war.

The only difference is that Daenerys got dragon(s). And that she is a Targaryen (which is stupid when the 7 past seasons tried to build her as a different Targaryen).

 

Also, you can't use "If Jon wanted ... he souldn't have told" that's bad argumentation...

In a wicked/plotting mind yes, you don't tell what you want to hide.

In Jon's mind, his CAN'T lie to his family. And he waits from them to have some honor, at least with him. 

That's the duality. He is a "good" man in the middle of people that are losing their honesty/humanity/moral or whatever word you put on that. 

 

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10 minutes ago, Targaryen Peas said:

Well, she burned them. And at this point, I don't think how they die matters. 

Any other ruler would have ruined them a way or another. Didn't Tywin scheme the red weddings.

They are both fighting a war.

The only difference is that Daenerys got dragon(s). And that she is a Targaryen (which is stupid when the 7 past seasons tried to build her as a different Targaryen).

 

Also, you can't use "If Jon wanted ... he souldn't have told" that's bad argumentation...

In a wicked/plotting mind yes, you don't tell what you want to hide.

In Jon's mind, his CAN'T lie to his family. And he waits from them to have some honor, at least with him. 

That's the duality. He is a "good" man in the middle of people that are losing their honesty/humanity/moral or whatever word you put on that. 

 

Sam’s father died by similar standards to the usual rulers. Dickon didn’t. Tywin understood the value of prisonners. And, Dany is claiming tobe BETTER that the same old same old, so she is not meeting her own standard. If she wants to end tyranny she can’t behave like a tyrant. Which is what burning Dickon was.

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2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Sam’s father died by similar standards to the usual rulers. Dickon didn’t. Tywin understood the value of prisonners. And, Dany is claiming tobe BETTER that the same old same old, so she is not meeting her own standard. If she wants to end tyranny she can’t behave like a tyrant. Which is what burning Dickon was.

I agree for Dickon. But didn't he want to follow his father's way? 

We also need to remember something, Dany is  still very young in the books. And the character developement takes that into account. 

It is NOT an excuse, but she is supposed to make mistakes. 

Let's see what kind of ending she'll have. 

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Targaryen Peas said:

I agree for Dickon. But didn't he want to follow his father's way? 

We also need to remember something, Dany is  still very young in the books. And the character developement takes that into account. 

It is NOT an excuse, but she is supposed to make mistakes. 

Let's see what kind of ending she'll have. 

Yes, the point is mainly that Jon, in trying to hide his identity by swearing the others to secrecy is mainly acting blindly because he is in love and doesn’t really want to be a King anyway. But a part of him deep down actually knows what Sansa knows: Dany is potentially dangerous to the North and might not be the best ruler.

as for Jon being compelled to tell his sisters because honesty: I don’t buy it. That secret is not about honesty and if Ned could hold on to it so could he, if it really were the right thing to do.

Edited by Hippocras

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3 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Yes, the point is mainly that Jon, in trying to hide his identity by swearing the others to secrecy is mainly acting blindly because he is in love and doesn’t really want to be a King anyway. But a part of him deep down actually knows what Sansa knows: Dany is potentially dangerous to the North and might not be the best ruler.

as for Jon being compelled to tell his sisters because honesty: I don’t buy it. That secret is not about honesty and if Ned could hold on to it so could he, if it really were the right thing to do.

You're not making sense anymore, to me.

You're basically saying "I refuse to believe the character's personnality, and how he has been acting for ever. And prefer to read into his mind" 

Jon has been pretty borderline on his choices, it even led him to his DEATH once. 

How can't you buy the fact that he is telling out of honesty? 

For now, he has shown no suspicion in Daenerys at all. 

But he might change in the near future (aka 12 May)

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10 minutes ago, Targaryen Peas said:

You're not making sense anymore, to me.

You're basically saying "I refuse to believe the character's personnality, and how he has been acting for ever. And prefer to read into his mind" 

Jon has been pretty borderline on his choices, it even led him to his DEATH once. 

How can't you buy the fact that he is telling out of honesty? 

For now, he has shown no suspicion in Daenerys at all. 

But he might change in the near future (aka 12 May)

If Jon really believed that telling noone was the right thing to do, he would not have told anyone, including Sansa and Arya. Jon is all about doing the right thing. He would have died with the secret. 

He told his sisters because he is NOT sure that keeping the secret is the right thing to do. He has doubts. He was shaken by Dany’s reaction to the news. He was disturbed by what Sam told him, and Sam struck a chord when he asked if Dany would give up the throne to save her people as he had.

Basically evyer time this secret has been passed on to someone, it happens because the person passing it on feels conflicted about it. Keeping it secret is not obviously the right thing.

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7 hours ago, Hippocras said:

It was a dumb thing to ask of her. If he didn’t want anyone to know he should not have told anyone. Period. So part of him DOES want people to know.

Your judgement about Jon is a bit harsh.  He is with his family, people he has known all of his life.  If it came down to it, (and it did), Jon trusts his family more than anyone in the world, and that includes Dany.  Dany told him what to do with his new information, and Jon ignored her advice.  I think we can conclude that Jon trusts his family more than he trusts Dany.  

Also, information like 'you are the one true king' is unnerving.  The fact that Jon waited awhile before telling his family gives us a sense of how much this weighed on his mind privately.  He needed to know what his family thought to help him make upcoming decisions.  

So, Jon telling Arya and Sansa, with Bran, just makes Jon human.

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6 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Yes, the point is mainly that Jon, in trying to hide his identity by swearing the others to secrecy is mainly acting blindly because he is in love and doesn’t really want to be a King anyway. But a part of him deep down actually knows what Sansa knows: Dany is potentially dangerous to the North and might not be the best ruler.

as for Jon being compelled to tell his sisters because honesty: I don’t buy it. That secret is not about honesty and if Ned could hold on to it so could he, if it really were the right thing to do.

I'm failing to see how Dany is potentially dangerous to the North.

Can someone explain to me why Dany would be dangerous to the Northmen? She has done nothing to them. In fact, she has done the opposite: she has done everything for them.

The Tarlys betrayed their liege (for Cersei no less) which led to the death of said liege who had already sworn herself and her banners to Daenerys. Daenerys offers them a chance to rectify their mistake and swear fealty to her. They both refuse. Randyll Tarly, the upstanding father he is, allows his son to die an excruciatingly unnecessary death alongside him...for what? Lolz like what parent does that. Ned Stark was willing to confess committing a crime he didn't commit so that his daughter would be spared and his son wouldn't be dragged into a war he might not win; Catelyn Stark betrayed her son for a man she hates so her daughters could be saved and then she was willing to die and/or spend the rest of her life a prisoner of Walder Frey to save her son. But then again, we have to remember that Randyll Tarly is recent recipient of the Father of the Year award.

In any case, Daenerys executes them.

Jon, Ned and Robb (good men) executed men for less and they are still considered good men. But Daenerys executes persistent threats to her allies and her goals and she's showing signs of being an intemperate, bad queen?

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On 5/8/2019 at 1:17 PM, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Mirri Maaz Duur for blood, Xharo was gold, and I FIRMLY believed Jorah was going to be the one to kill her at the end, out of love for her and love for Westeros. Presumably after she went too far in something and he no longer had a choice. 

Obviously that theory was crap lol. I guess if it’s even still relevant, it’s Jon now. 

That theory has never ever made sense.

The three betrayals prophecy happened months after the death of Mirri Maaz Duur.

11 hours ago, Hippocras said:

She didn’t betray him any more than he « betrayed » Dany by telling her. But I don’t consider either a betrayal. Sansa is not acting against Jon’s interests in telling Tyrion. She knows that Tyrion is not going to consider the info a reason to kill Jon or act against him. But she also knows that Tyrion is in a better position to be the judge of if Dany can be trusted as queen of the 7 kingdoms including the North, or if Jon would be the better King.

Nope.

She did, in fact, betray Jon and endanger Jon's interests by telling Tyrion. Because if Jon wanted Tyrion to know, he would have told Tyrion.

Clearly, she was wrong to trust Tyrion with that information because Tyrion, the idiot he is, informs Varys.

Do you think Jon would have told Tyrion, much less Varys, with this information?

There was a reason why Eddard Stark kept it a secret to begin with.

If anything, this disqualifies Jon. He would be a bad king for this display of political ineptitude alone.

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40 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

She did, in fact, betray Jon and endanger Jon's interests by telling Tyrion. Because if Jon wanted Tyrion to know, he would have told Tyrion.

Clearly, she was wrong to trust Tyrion with that information because Tyrion, the idiot he is, informs Varys.

Do you think Jon would have told Tyrion, much less Varys, with this information?

There was a reason why Eddard Stark kept it a secret to begin with.

If anything, this disqualifies Jon. He would be a bad king for this display of political ineptitude alone.

Again, if Jon really believed noone should know he would not have told anyone. That simple. It is really not a complicated point I am making on this thread. If you believe it is right and good that something is secret and you are a character like Jon who does what he believes is right, you just don’t tell.

Ned never told Cat! He let her believe he betrayed her rather than telling her. It was that important.

Jon is not a lesser man than Ned. The reason he told was he did not fully believe, within himself, that noone should know.

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24 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Again, if Jon really believed noone should know he would not have told anyone. That simple. It is really not a complicated point I am making on this thread. If you believe it is right and good that something is secret and you are a character like Jon who does what he believes is right, you just don’t tell.

Ned never told Cat! He let her believe he betrayed her rather than telling her. It was that important.

Jon is not a lesser man than Ned. The reason he told was he did not fully believe, within himself, that noone should know.

Well, Jon is not only about to be proven wrong (his decision to tell has endangered Daenerys) but he is also about to see the wisdom in Ned Stark's decision not to tell.

Speaking of Ned, he saw the wisdom in confessing to the crime of treason (a crime he never committed) so that hundreds of thousands of lives -- including those of his children, particularly Sansa and Robb -- could be saved. Ned also saw the wisdom in never telling Robert Baratheon that he intended for Cersei and her children to flee Westeros and for Stannis to become the king.

Would Jon have done the same thing? Could Jon have done the same thing?

That is why I think Jon is wholly unfit of being king. He has less sense than Ned did and Ned made several very big, very senseless mistakes.

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