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Books vs Show: How much difference?

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32 minutes ago, hallam said:

I think that Lyanna dies from the blood magic used to create the glamor that switches the looks of Jon and fAegon who is actually the bastard of Brandon and Ashara. She uses the sword dawn which is lightbringer, activating it. Hence that whole business about taking the body back and Ashara disappearing - she is protecting her own child who now looks Targ.

Seems far fetched to me but I'm sure its been discussed to death around here somewhere anyway :D

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The difference have become so far apart its hard for the story to come to the same conclusion, for a start there is no Night King in the books. The Others are not created, they are creatures that are very much like, but also opposite the Children of the forest they are a colder darker natural force that hate Iron, and like the children of the forest, they are connected to the werewoods.

The Dragons cannot cross the wall, as stated in "Fire and Blood" so the whole suicide squad mission beyond the wall, and the NK getting Viserion is unlikely the bookshints at Ice dragons and Ice spiders.

Jon dying is also wrong, the first chapter in "Dance with Dragons" tells us about Varamyr Six Skins. When a Warg dies their sole goes into their beast, the last chapter of the book is Jons death (he's a warg in the books) as he falls the last thing he says is "Ghost" he's inside the direwolf. 

Euron had a facelessman kill Balon Greyjoy, and hints he gave the facelessmen a dragon egg to do so. The faceless men are nosying around Old town looking for something. 

And then there is our third (possible) Targ, Aegon (young Griff). I do not believe Rhagar would name both his sons Aegon, I think Jons name will be different and that young Griff is a Blackfyre. 

Sansa (bit of a delusional dreamer in the books) will not be raped by Ramsey Bolton, this was Janet Pool. 

Then we have Stannis whom George said is a major character in the next book, is still alive.

Brienne is about to get hanged by lady stone heart.

Jojen, Hodor, Stannis, the Boltons, Mance (king beyond the wall), Barristan Selmy, Rickon Stark, Shaggydog are all still alive (just naming a few).

Victorian Greyjoy gives me the creeps with the dragon weilding horn, another character and storyline cut from the show.

 

The show i think have entangled what could be Aegon (young Griff) and Jon snows storylines. Sansas storyline on the show had spun off in a completely different direction from the books.

The books are going to be epic!!!.... the end might be similar but the differences already made (I've only named a few) will make the books a far superior story. Roll on Winds of Winter 

 

 

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50 minutes ago, Flightless bird said:

The difference have become so far apart its hard for the story to come to the same conclusion, for a start there is no Night King in the books. The Others are not created, they are creatures that are very much like, but also opposite the Children of the forest they are a colder darker natural force that hate Iron, and like the children of the forest, they are connected to the werewoods.

Oh please. The books make it clear that the wall is going to fall. Mance is looking for the horn of winter. And the Night King is mentioned repeatedly.

Since the original NK is killed by AA, there must have been a new one from somewhere. Of course the plot will be more complex but it is pretty clear that the show is consistent with the broad outlines of the book.

For you to make your case here, you have to show that the NK does not appear in books 6 or 7. Which obviously you can't. So what you are saying comes down to you don't like the plot and so you conclude that the books must be different.

55 minutes ago, Flightless bird said:

Then we have Stannis whom George said is a major character in the next book, is still alive.

Oh please, nobody else could see Shireen was going to burn when they burned the idols back at Dragonstone? That scene was absolutely no surprise to me because the red witch is sending a package to Stannis and there are three pyres being built. Of course she is gonna burn and of course Brienne is going to get out of the Stoneheart thing and eventually rescue Sansa.

Of course there are more plot lines in the books. But the show has been delivered and the books have not.

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I'm sure there will be parallels but it would be extremely strange to reveal the ending of 'A Song of Ice and Fire' on the TV series first. Plus if he's still writing then he could easily change his mind.

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13 hours ago, hallam said:

Oh please. The books make it clear that the wall is going to fall. Mance is looking for the horn of winter. And the Night King is mentioned repeatedly.

I still think the wall will fall, but I think fAegon will ride Viserion not the NK, the wall is likely to fall with the horn being blown. I think fAegon and Jons character Arcs have been merged in the show. So if the rumours online are true about Jon killing Danny do you see this happening in the book or will it be fAegon killing Danny.

Arya killing the NK doesn't fit the Azor prophecies, I still think it will be Jon Snow. 

The show missed out the end of Maggy the frogs prophecy about the valonqar, so her death could be caused by anybody.

14 hours ago, hallam said:

For you to make your case here, you have to show that the NK does not appear in books 6 or 7. Which obviously you can't. So what you are saying comes down to you don't like the plot and so you conclude that the books must be different.

  Why so condescending?... Its the intricate details, the complex storylines and huge variety of characters that make the books so amazing. I do not judge a book solely by the end, if it ends the same/similar so be it, it doesnt mean i will stop reading the last books when they do come out. 

The tv show have omitted the intricate details and seem to be wanting to stun the audience with the shock factor. I wanted to see Arya and Sansas reaction to Jons parentage, i wanted to see ghost the way he is in the books, I wanted to see Rhagal refuse to travel south with danny because he had bonded with Jon. Its the small missing details that are irratating. But I will still stay awake till 2am in the morning to watch the show.

Not once did i say i disliked the plot.

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14 hours ago, hallam said:

Oh please. The books make it clear that the wall is going to fall. Mance is looking for the horn of winter. And the Night King is mentioned repeatedly.

Since the original NK is killed by AA, there must have been a new one from somewhere. Of course the plot will be more complex but it is pretty clear that the show is consistent with the broad outlines of the book.

Can you Quote me where in the books Ive been looking and cant find anything... not the "Nights King" (which was the 13th commander of the wall) but the Night king who rules the others. Thankyou 

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4 hours ago, Flightless bird said:

Can you Quote me where in the books Ive been looking and cant find anything... not the "Nights King" (which was the 13th commander of the wall) but the Night king who rules the others. Thankyou 

As with the burning of the idols at Dragonstone, which gives obvious hints about what is going to happen to Shireen, the conversation about the 13th commander is framed in the same way.

I expected that the Night King would emerge as the leader of the WWs from reading the books long before he appeared in the show. 

Quote

A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well. He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will.

A Storm of Swords, Chapter 56, Bran IV.

Now GRRM says that it is unlikely this Night King survived this long but we don't know in the show if this is the one original or the latest in a succession of NKs. 

The Night King in the books sacrifices children to the other so the WWs are there before him. But we also know that the books have been destroyed and all mention of him erased. 

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19 hours ago, hallam said:

Oh please. The books make it clear that the wall is going to fall. Mance is looking for the horn of winter. And the Night King is mentioned repeatedly.

Since the original NK is killed by AA, there must have been a new one from somewhere. Of course the plot will be more complex but it is pretty clear that the show is consistent with the broad outlines of the book.

For you to make your case here, you have to show that the NK does not appear in books 6 or 7. Which obviously you can't. So what you are saying comes down to you don't like the plot and so you conclude that the books must be different.

Oh please, nobody else could see Shireen was going to burn when they burned the idols back at Dragonstone? That scene was absolutely no surprise to me because the red witch is sending a package to Stannis and there are three pyres being built. Of course she is gonna burn and of course Brienne is going to get out of the Stoneheart thing and eventually rescue Sansa.

Of course there are more plot lines in the books. But the show has been delivered and the books have not.

Azor Ahai did not kill the original NK. He was brought down by the alliance between Bran the Builder and Joramun, King Beyond the Wall. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Azor Ahai did not kill the original NK. He was brought down by the alliance between Bran the Builder and Joramun, King Beyond the Wall. 

I agree, this Nights king (of the night fort) wasn't immortal, he lived and died a normal span. 

Azor Ahai did defeat the others but we aren't told how? He might not have killed anyone, but struck a bargain with them (one that time has forgotten). I certainly don't think the Others in the books are wholely evil, i think they have a reason behind their agressive behaviour. George RR Martin doesn't create purely evil or good characters everybody is a certain shade of grey, we are told the story about the long night war and the others from one perspective.. and going by the authors morals about war, there will be a reason behind the others behaviour, which we don't know yet.  

Its been years since i last read the books, so i apologise if im getting things wrong or out of context. I will be re-reading them when the show is finished, so i can better distinguish one from the other.

Edited by Flightless bird

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Just now, Flightless bird said:

I agree, this Nights king (of the night fort) wasn't immortal, he lived and died a normal span. 

Azor Ahai did defeat the others but we aren't told how? He might not have killed anyone, but stuck a bargain with them (one that time has forgotten). I certainly don't think the Others in the books are wholely evil, i think they have a reason behind their agressive behaviour. George RR Martin doesn't create purely evil or good characters everybody is a certain shade of grey, we are told the story about the long night war and the others from one perspective.. and going by the authors morals about war, there will be a reason behind the others behaviour, which we don't know yet.  

Its been years since i last read the books, so i apologise if im getting things wrong or out of context. I will be re-reading them when the show is finished, so i can better distinguish one from the other.

It’s been a while since I read the books as well, but IIRC, it’s never even said explicitly that Azor Ahai defeated the Others. We’re just told that he existed during the Age of Heroes and forged Lightbringer. 

Melisandre certainly seems to think AA reincarnated is key to defeating the Others, but it’s not given anywhere in the text. 

He also may or may not be related to the Prince who was Promised, or the Last Hero. 

Most lore seems to lump them all together as one character, but we really have no clue who did what, or even what was done to end the Other threat back then. 

On the other hand, we have characters and also GRRM telling us specifically that trusting prophecy is dangerous. 

I totally agree that the Others have some goal other than just killing humans cuz they can. 

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I don't think the ending is actually that interesting. Far more interesting are the parts we can only get from the books. It is clear that a large part of the circumstances of Robert's rebellion are hidden and we will obviously find some of these out.

For example, what was the prophecy that caused Aerys to go mad and attempt to murder Rheagar? Why was he trying to set fire to Kings Landing? Why did Jamie sit on the throne after killing him?

Another area that we clearly only have parts of the puzzle are the origins of fAegon and what Ashara was up to. 

There are hints that the disappearance of magic has something to do with the disappearance of the dragons in the show. But the books take it further and suggest that this was due to a deliberate plan of the Maesters. Why did the dragons get smaller?

Dragon eggs are clearly precious but the three Danny was given were not the only ones we hear about in the books. Are there more to be hatched? Now that we are down to one dragon, that becomes an important question.

Who actually sticks Cersei with a knife isn't really so interesting as the other things we may find out.

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1 hour ago, hallam said:

I don't think the ending is actually that interesting. Far more interesting are the parts we can only get from the books. It is clear that a large part of the circumstances of Robert's rebellion are hidden and we will obviously find some of these out.

For example, what was the prophecy that caused Aerys to go mad and attempt to murder Rheagar? Why was he trying to set fire to Kings Landing? Why did Jamie sit on the throne after killing him?

Another area that we clearly only have parts of the puzzle are the origins of fAegon and what Ashara was up to. 

There are hints that the disappearance of magic has something to do with the disappearance of the dragons in the show. But the books take it further and suggest that this was due to a deliberate plan of the Maesters. Why did the dragons get smaller?

Dragon eggs are clearly precious but the three Danny was given were not the only ones we hear about in the books. Are there more to be hatched? Now that we are down to one dragon, that becomes an important question.

Who actually sticks Cersei with a knife isn't really so interesting as the other things we may find out.

I have never understood the theory that Ashara went into hiding as Howland Reed’s wife because she knew the truth about Jon’s ancestry. 

Ned provides a perfectly plausible explanation for Jon’s existence - he got another woman pregnant. 

There’s speculation over the identity of Jon’s mother, but literally never a single peep of suspicion that Jon might not be Ned’s kid. 

There was no reason whatsoever for Ashara to fake a suicide and then go into hiding. 

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I think it is obvious that the broad points will be the same but D&D are such hacks they are entirely incapable of writing their own connective tissue.

The Other threat will be dealt with in the Winds of Winter and this will be at Winterfell - this was not something I was expecting, I thought the Long Night was going to continue right up until the end of A Dream of Spring but it seems to be that was never the plan. I think the Others probably will get a dragon and that Jon will ride one but that GRRM will make it make more sense, if he ever writes it. I think Bran and Jon will have much bigger roles to play in averting the Others. The other big expectation I have, which the books may do much better, is generate sympathy for the Others, so that there is a sense of loss when they are gone. I think the books will still do this.

Dany will go Fire and Blood in a Dream of Spring - again, this was not something I expected. I expected Jon would need to slay Dany before dealing with the others and the Dream would be something on the horizon, after the Others are dealt with. It seems the 'Dream' was always meant to be a shattered dream, rather than a future one.

I am ok with my expectations being subverted on how the plot will play out in broad strokes. I am just very pissed that the set pieces and connective tissue being provided by D&D are so lame.

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On 5/9/2019 at 11:08 PM, hallam said:

Oh dear, another person who is so certain they know GRRM's ending that they are certain D&D are getting it wrong.

I am pretty sure that we are going to end up with a choice for Jon between the iron throne and Cersei killing Arya. The Missandei death pretty much tells us that is coming up. Danny faced that test and so Jon will. 

Once you work that out. It becomes pretty clear where GoT is really headed and it looks totally consistent with GRRM's subversion of the tropes. It becomes clear that Arya is the one to kill the NK in the books as well because the end point is the choice between Jon's family and the throne. And he picks his family.

The fAegon plot is missing because book Jon is going to turn out to look Targarean, not Stark after the glamor is removed and fAegon is going to look Stark. And that is something GRRM can do in the books but would not work in the show.

The main thing I think we are missing is that we will find out that the Red God is also pretty evil.

How do you with Jon and fAegon? 

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11 hours ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

I have never understood the theory that Ashara went into hiding as Howland Reed’s wife because she knew the truth about Jon’s ancestry. 

Ned provides a perfectly plausible explanation for Jon’s existence - he got another woman pregnant. 

There’s speculation over the identity of Jon’s mother, but literally never a single peep of suspicion that Jon might not be Ned’s kid. 

There was no reason whatsoever for Ashara to fake a suicide and then go into hiding. 

Jon and fAegon would both be born at the same time. There is a clear hint Ashara had an affair with Brandon. So if they had a baby it would look Stark.

This is an unreliable narrator book. We are told that Jon LOOKS Stark. Well fAegon looks Targ. Where the blazes does he come from?

It was always clear to me that Jon wasn't a bastard and the true heir. That is the trope. The question is how that is arrived at. I think the books have a lot more complexity but come to the same point: Jon is Rheagar's son and Lyanna died because of Jon. But I think there is a lot more complexity in the books than the show and that the books will tie up the lose ends the show never revealed.

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I find it hard to believe that George will ever finish the books.  He has been working on the next book for 8 years, and there are no news regarding it's publication.  At best it will come out next year, and then he will have to write the last book, which he expects to be the same size as the 6th one.  But the last book is supposed to cover the events of seasons 7 and 8, which makes me think it will be even bigger than the one he's currently writing.  So I honestly don't see how George could finish this story.

The only way this could be done would be by focusing on 6-7 character POVs, and by making the books considerably smaller.  And then fill the gaps with short stories on what the other characters were doing.  I mean, do we really need at least 2 Victarion chapters before the battle of Meereen?

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3 hours ago, bloodsteel bitterraven said:

I find it hard to believe that George will ever finish the books.  He has been working on the next book for 8 years, and there are no news regarding it's publication.  At best it will come out next year, and then he will have to write the last book, which he expects to be the same size as the 6th one.  But the last book is supposed to cover the events of seasons 7 and 8, which makes me think it will be even bigger than the one he's currently writing.  So I honestly don't see how George could finish this story.

The only way this could be done would be by focusing on 6-7 character POVs, and by making the books considerably smaller.  And then fill the gaps with short stories on what the other characters were doing.  I mean, do we really need at least 2 Victarion chapters before the battle of Meereen?

The plot has diverged from the show to the extent that they couldn't being book 6 out after the show started on book 5. So I really don't think he has taken 8 years. I think he took 6 years to write what is according to most accounts two volumes.

So I am pretty sure we will get seven books. But there will always be two books more to come because A Dream of Spring will expand to two volumes as well.

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The biggest disappointment for me was the lack of Wargs... Arya in the books being a strong warg and having dreams of warging Nymeria, even when she was as far away as Bravos... I'd of loved to see arya take control of this ability, and with Nymeria and the hundreds of small wolves in Nymerias pack, take part in the battle.. that would of been epic.

I couldn't see Jons warg beast leaving him either I don't think the bond works that way, if ghost isn't there at the end of the books he'd proberly be dead, I kinda imagined they'd have to kill Ghost to get Jons sole back in his body.  

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1 hour ago, hallam said:

The plot has diverged from the show to the extent that they couldn't being book 6 out after the show started on book 5. So I really don't think he has taken 8 years. I think he took 6 years to write what is according to most accounts two volumes.

So I am pretty sure we will get seven books. But there will always be two books more to come because A Dream of Spring will expand to two volumes as well.

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you're saying.  It has been 8 years since ADWD came out, and George is still writing TWOW with no end in sight.  

And yes, your 2nd paragraph is in agreement with what I said.  ADOS, if we ever get to that point will be way bigger than any of the books released so far.

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1 minute ago, bloodsteel bitterraven said:

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you're saying.  It has been 8 years since ADWD came out, and George is still writing TWOW with no end in sight.  

And yes, your 2nd paragraph is in agreement with what I said.  ADOS, if we ever get to that point will be way bigger than any of the books released so far.

I think GRRM got to the end of writing WoW a while back and that it is being delayed because the plot lines conflict with those in the show. 

GRRM has written for TV himself and the show is every bit as much his work as the books and he is not going to want to tread on them. I certainly would not if I was in his place. He has hundreds of friends on the show and millions of fans because of the show. His book can wait.

Now that is not to say that he has actually got the manuscript ready to go to the publisher. But he is going to cons again and that is a pretty big tell.

23 minutes ago, Flightless bird said:

The biggest disappointment for me was the lack of Wargs... Arya in the books being a strong warg and having dreams of warging Nymeria, even when she was as far away as Bravos... I'd of loved to see arya take control of this ability, and with Nymeria and the hundreds of small wolves in Nymerias pack, take part in the battle.. that would of been epic.

I couldn't see Jons warg beast leaving him either I don't think the bond works that way, if ghost isn't there at the end of the books he'd proberly be dead, I kinda imagined they'd have to kill Ghost to get Jons sole back in his body.  

Warging works great in the books. What do you think it would look like on the screen?

I can't think of a good way to do it. The Bran sequences are hard enough. Problem is that we have all seen that stuff so many times.

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