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Books vs Show: How much difference?

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6 minutes ago, hallam said:

I think GRRM got to the end of writing WoW a while back and that it is being delayed because the plot lines conflict with those in the show. 

GRRM has written for TV himself and the show is every bit as much his work as the books and he is not going to want to tread on them. I certainly would not if I was in his place. He has hundreds of friends on the show and millions of fans because of the show. His book can wait.

Now that is not to say that he has actually got the manuscript ready to go to the publisher. But he is going to cons again and that is a pretty big tell.

 

I don't believe that for a second.  I would be really pissed at George if I was his publisher and this was true.

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6 hours ago, bloodsteel bitterraven said:

I don't believe that for a second.  I would be really pissed at George if I was his publisher and this was true.

Why? News Corp is plenty happy waiting. They owned Sky while it was distributing the show in Europe making them huge $$$$

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I seriously doubt that it will be similar except that the others will be defeated. GRRM would never have cersei become all powerful in any way like she has by destroying the sept. Also the end will likely ake alot more sense. I don't see GRRM doing what these "writers" have done.

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Timeline following Dance of the Dragons book:

 

Daenarys gets her khalasar in Vaes Dothrak via Dosh Khaleen, and Drogon. Goes back to Mereen, where in the meantime, Barristan defeats the weakass Yukai and Astapor with the help of Victarion Greyjoy (acctual Euron in the show?). Barristan's coup blows up in his face by trusting Skahaz and Dany's "loyalist" - gets butchered. Dany gets back at the head of superkhalasar. Goes apeshit and deals with betrayals and the Harpy (probably sacks Mereen). Victarion tries to bind a dragon to his will only to die like a little bitch. Tyrion swoops in and bonds with Dany, setting her sights to Westeros. They sack Volantis and Pentos on their way, leaving questionable people in the lead (Tattered prince). Dany embraces her fire and blood persona (not mad but harsh). Goes West....

Euron pillages the Reach and sacks Oltown after some weird blood sacrifice to the Drown God. Willas and Garlan Tyrell hold him up with success. Euron goes all in and blows the Horn of Joramun, the Wall collapses and Others pour in. Battles with Bran on wargining plane. Gets defeated, turn his eye on Dany. 

Jon's body is in the Ice cells chillin a little while. He's warging and stuff. The wildlings and Jon loyalist murder the mutineers. Melisandre gives him the gift of life. The Wall is in dissaray. Jon's watch has ended. He sulks and gets a bomb drop on him by Howland Reed (he's Rheagar's and Lyana's son - Ned lied to him his whole life). Identity crisis turn up a notch. After Stannis defeats the Boltons, prepares for the fight with Others. They get their asses kicked by the Army of the Dead all over the North. Stannis sacrifices Shireen to turn the tides. They fail, Stannis dies defending Winterfell.

Faegon goes after KL. Gets support from Reach. Lays seige. Connington wants to sack the city Tywin-style. In the meanwhile Cersei  goes cookoo, after Mountain kills Tommen. Myrcella dies as well and Cersei sinks to full Aerys, tries to blow up KL via wildfire cashes. Jaime stops that and strangles her, doing Wildfire plot 2.0. Lannisters fold, Faegon is crowned, Arriane Martell is the queen. Jaime either dies or takes the black (probably 1000th Lord commander). Danearys lays seige to KL from usurper Faegon. Only literal "dance of dragons 2.0" occurs. But Dany blows up KL by ACCIDENT (the caches of wildfire). Gets back to Dragonstone. King Landining becomes Valyrian Chernobyl. Fire and blood didn't workout, she did not get Iron throne. Gets tempted by Euron to join the Others and destroy humanity. Turns away from him and helps Jon and Tyrion defeat the in the Hearth of Winter. The Trio die and Seven Kingdoms break apart.

Sansa overthrows Baelish and gets hold of the Vale through marriage to Harry the Heir, helps the North with defense from the Others. After destruction of KL and victory over the Others, oversees the rebuilding of the Westeros. Has the political experience, savvy and connections.

 

This is how I think the books will end. Didn't think it impossible to transfer to screen. Maybe even possible in 8 season per 10 episodes. That's why book readers are so mad. The thematic narrative is gone, character development and arcs are gone, it is just plot points met in certain times. Thus every episode since season 4 feels flat (episode 10 of season 4 did it for me - I mean skeletors from Jason and Argonauts? Children of the forrest with fireballs? Srsly?). There is no catarsis, no resolution, no layers anymore. Just pure production and shock value. D&D are hacks, I honestly hope I live to see a remake in my lifetime. That's how desperate I am :-D

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Posted (edited)

I think it will be very close. The endings of each major character will be identical, their paths towards the endings very similar.

Yes Dany's snapping and burning KL will have more build up. But it will be subtle build up. Hidden changes in her behavior before the event. I think the chapter of her burning the city will be as "unexpected" and out of the blue as the Red Wedding was. If there was no series  to warn us, readers would feel as empty as they did when they read the Red Wedding chapter.

Also it's obvious to me it will be from a non Dany pov chapter. Probably a combination of Jon and Arya.

The Night King, or the Great Other, will play more or less the same. But it will feel more deserved and gained because the Battle of Winterfell will be the peak chapter of Winds of Winter, probably one of the last ones, maybe even the epilogue? Maybe an epilogue from the POV of the Great Other? So we can sympathise with him before his demise and see his reasoning?

Since s08ep03, I firmly believe the only true problem with the season is that the first 3 episodes of this season ought to be attached to s07. The last 3 episodes of season 7. This season should be entirely dedicated to the war against Cercei with subtle hints of Dany losing her sanity in the background.

Edit:

Also no prophecies will turn up true in the books either. Think of it: The Song of Ice and Fire. The title. A prophecy that drove a prince to seduce and steal the betrothed of a powerful lord so they can hatch the "Song of Ice and Fire", driving the realm into chaos.  A man obsessed with a lie enough to start a domino of destruction and death.

 

Edited by Nakraal

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, Nakraal said:

I think it will be very close. The endings of each major character will be identical, their paths towards the endings very similar.

Yes Dany's snapping and burning KL will have more build up. But it will be subtle build up. Hidden changes in her behavior before the event. I think the chapter of her burning the city will be as "unexpected" and out of the blue as the Red Wedding was. If there was no series  to warn us, readers would feel as empty as they did when they read the Red Wedding chapter.

Also it's obvious to me it will be from a non Dany pov chapter. Probably a combination of Jon and Arya.

The Night King, or the Great Other, will play more or less the same. But it will feel more deserved and gained because the Battle of Winterfell will be the peak chapter of Winds of Winter, probably one of the last ones, maybe even the epilogue? Maybe an epilogue from the POV of the Great Other? So we can sympathise with him before his demise and see his reasoning?

Since s08ep03, I firmly believe the only true problem with the season is that the first 3 episodes of this season ought to be attached to s07. The last 3 episodes of season 7. This season should be entirely dedicated to the war against Cercei with subtle hints of Dany losing her sanity in the background.

Edit:

Also no prophecies will turn up true in the books either. Think of it: The Song of Ice and Fire. The title. A prophecy that drove a prince to seduce and steal the betrothed of a powerful lord so they can hatch the "Song of Ice and Fire", driving the realm into chaos.  A man obsessed with a lie enough to start a domino of destruction and death.

 

David Benioff is that you?

Seriously, though look at the bold. Basically you are saying that George R.R. Martin is going to throw away and destroy everything he has slaved over for the past 20 years. Every meticulous detail, all of the magic, all of the foreshadowing...

You need to read this thread. Because I lowkey think you are clueless because you have forgotten that this stuff that you are brushing off is important.

And if you really think the Others are going to be able to break through or pass the Wall, overrun the North and destroy Winterfell in The Winds of Winter, then you aren't paying attention and you're just as dumb as D&D.

The Red Wedding wasn't that unexpected: we knew that Robb was in big trouble with the last Tyrion and Arya chapters at the end of A Clash of Kings. And in even bigger trouble once we got a few chapters into A Storm of Swords: Robb was winning every battle but he was losing the war badly. Catelyn was the only one who seemed to really get it. But no one could hear or rely on her because of the mistakes she made.

Edited by Jabar of House Titan

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2 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

David Benioff is that you?

Seriously, though look at the bold. Basically you are saying that George R.R. Martin is going to throw away and destroy everything he has slaved over for the past 20 years. Every meticulous detail, all of the magic, all of the foreshadowing...

You need to read this thread. Because I lowkey think you are clueless because you have forgotten that this stuff that you are brushing off is important.

And if you really think the Others are going to be able to break through or pass the Wall, overrun the North and destroy Winterfell in The Winds of Winter, then you aren't paying attention and you're just as dumb as D&D.

The Red Wedding wasn't that unexpected: we knew that Robb was in big trouble with the last Tyrion and Arya chapters at the end of A Clash of Kings. And in even bigger trouble once we got a few chapters into A Storm of Swords: Robb was winning every battle but he was losing the war badly. Catelyn was the only one who seemed to really get it. But no one could hear or rely on her because of the mistakes she made.

Seriously though, look at the bold.

You make some points, you may be right at some, I could answer to some, ... but .. but yeah... you are a toxic person (look at the bold). There was no reason to disrespect someone for his opinion no matter how dumb you believe it to be. Probably you want to nuke the thread. 

Yeah. You seem toxic (look at the bold)

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56 minutes ago, Nakraal said:

 

Seriously though, look at the bold.

You make some points, you may be right at some, I could answer to some, ... but .. but yeah... you are a toxic person (look at the bold). There was no reason to disrespect someone for his opinion no matter how dumb you believe it to be. Probably you want to nuke the thread. 

Yeah. You seem toxic (look at the bold)

Now, why would I nuke the thread? I haven't heard any bells ring.

 

 

 

To be serious, you're not quite right. I used to really, really defend the showrunners and this show. And back in season 5 that was very, very hard to do. I saw a glimmer of hope in season 6 and spoke up for it in spite of the painfully glaring errors (mainly the terrible pacing that made characters act wildly out-of-character or survive situations that were impossible to survive in earlier seasons for the sake of rushing things).

I loved this show. I was excited. I was a show apologist. I still am as far as the earlier seasons are concerned. And now look at it.

No, I'm not a toxic person. I'm just mad and I feel deceived and betrayed.

There were shows and games that I loved that were cancelled, dragged to hell and back and otherwise made to suffer for making mistakes that look like child's play in comparison to the errors D&D made. And these were arguably better shows.

Your assertions were clueless ones. And it isn't a matter of opinion because it doesn't make any sort of sense -- logical, thematic, dramatic or narrative -- for the Others to get past the Wall, destroy all of the other recently manned castles on the Wall, overrun the North, destroy Winterfell and set their sights on the rest of Westeros in one book.

George R.R. Martin is neither Dan Weiss nor David Benioff. Why would destroy his own work and abort so many plotlines he had been working on for years? Like what; is GRRM supposed to disregard the fact that Jon Snow still sees northern politics as worthy of his attention? Are the Others and their legions supposed to suddenly move at the speed of a runaway freight train after five books of them moving about slowly and mysteriously? 

Use your brain.

I'm tired of people not using their brains to draw logical conclusions and educated opinions only to turn around and say that their thoughtless decisions are matters of opinion and preference that is all up for interpretation.

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13 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Now, why would I nuke the thread? I haven't heard any bells ring.

 

 

 

To be serious, you're not quite right. I used to really, really defend the showrunners and this show. And back in season 5 that was very, very hard to do. I saw a glimmer of hope in season 6 and spoke up for it in spite of the painfully glaring errors (mainly the terrible pacing that made characters act wildly out-of-character or survive situations that were impossible to survive in earlier seasons for the sake of rushing things).

I loved this show. I was excited. I was a show apologist. I still am as far as the earlier seasons are concerned. And now look at it.

No, I'm not a toxic person. I'm just mad and I feel deceived and betrayed.

There were shows and games that I loved that were cancelled, dragged to hell and back and otherwise made to suffer for making mistakes that look like child's play in comparison to the errors D&D made. And these were arguably better shows.

Your assertions were clueless ones. And it isn't a matter of opinion because it doesn't make any sort of sense -- logical, thematic, dramatic or narrative -- for the Others to get past the Wall, destroy all of the other recently manned castles on the Wall, overrun the North, destroy Winterfell and set their sights on the rest of Westeros in one book.

George R.R. Martin is neither Dan Weiss nor David Benioff. Why would destroy his own work and abort so many plotlines he had been working on for years? Like what; is GRRM supposed to disregard the fact that Jon Snow still sees northern politics as worthy of his attention? Are the Others and their legions supposed to suddenly move at the speed of a runaway freight train after five books of them moving about slowly and mysteriously? 

Use your brain.

I'm tired of people not using their brains to draw logical conclusions and educated opinions only to turn around and say that their thoughtless decisions are matters of opinion and preference that is all up for interpretation.

In the books they aren t even ready to fight the others. No dragonglass weapons, no people looking for lightbringer/AA/last hero, the north is divided, there are porbably 3 or 4 people trying to take control of the north (stannis, roose, wyman, whoever has robb's will), nobody south of the gift believes in the others so they won t send help, we know nearly nothing about the others...

I have no idea how anyone can think the others will be dealt with in the next book...

And where did this idea that prophecies don t come true in asoiaf? Because all TRUE profecies come true! It just doesn t happen in the way people expect...

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4 minutes ago, WingZero said:

Mad Queen will definitely still happen. 

Maybe. But I have doubts. And if it does happen (which there is a good chance), it definitely won't happen this way.

People may see Daenerys as mad. But their perception is almost certainly wrong.

Lots of people already think Jon is mad for harping about how the Others have returned and are coming to destroy all human civilization in Westeros. Lots of other people think that Jon is mad for making peace with the wildlings, letting them settle in the Gift and allowing women to join the Night's Watch.

People also thought Sansa poisoned Joffrey, turned into a wolf with bat wings and flew off to parts unknown, cackling that she did it for the realm.

I added the cackling part but...are those people right?

If Daenerys shows up claiming that Aegon is a fake propped up by devious courtiers, that R'hllor will help her save them from the Long Night, that the Faith of the Seven are powerless, that Euron Greyjoy is a sorcerer who wants to destroy the world, that Stannis (if he's still alive) is a loser and that she is Azor Ahai reborn and the Prince That Was Promised, people are going to think she is nuts.

Except for the part about Stannis. He is a loser.

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I think there will be significant difference. The only similarities as I see it will be 

a) The threat of others will be resolved before the war for the throne.

b) Dany will become darker (in a much more believable way) and the people will become distrustful of her dragons.

c) Tyrion will betray Dany by freeing Jaime (the betrayal for love).

I believe George will have told them who he has sitting on the throne (if anyone) but that is the kind of detail I can see them changing to whoever they feel like.

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Of course Danny goes mad Queen. She was fully into the Dothraki culture rapin' pilagin' and enslavin'. She did a long list of brutal things to rule in Essos.

Sansa had her number from the start. Just say'n

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On 5/9/2019 at 3:25 AM, chatty83 said:

Why would you give the ending away to your books before you sell them?

makes no sense unless he has actually given up on finishing them. I think if they get done they'll be different, some similarities but different mostly.

He’s made most his coins from the show. So his only motive for these last two books is to please the hardcore fans. Makes sense why he doesn’t care about spoiling things now 

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On 5/11/2019 at 7:28 AM, ummester said:

I think it is obvious that the broad points will be the same but D&D are such hacks they are entirely incapable of writing their own connective tissue.

George updated his "Not a Blog" this week with three rants... He's not finished 

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19 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Now, why would I nuke the thread? I haven't heard any bells ring.

Good one

23 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Basically you are saying that George R.R. Martin is going to throw away and destroy everything he has slaved over for the past 20 years.

GRRM has several plotlines abruptly end, plot lines that served nothing to the central story. Distractions. Many stories that go nowhere, dead ends. They are wonderfully written stories, but they do not serve anything to the story.

23 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

And if you really think the Others are going to be able to break through or pass the Wall, overrun the North and destroy Winterfell in The Winds of Winter, then you aren't paying attention and you're just as dumb as D&D.

I wish I would be as dumb as D&D. I'd have millions.

What makes you so sure of the Others will destroy Winterfell? The threat of the WWs will come to an end in the Godswood. 

19 hours ago, divica said:

George R.R. Martin is neither Dan Weiss nor David Benioff. Why would destroy his own work and abort so many plotlines he had been working on for years?

Hasn't GRRM already abort several plotlines? Can't you spot plotlines that were abruptly crushed and burned? Can't you spot what current plotlines are very probable that will have the same futile end during the next book?

 

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I used to love this show and I even defended it until episode 2 of this season (which I will still say is one of the better episodes we have received in years).  But since then, it has just deflated me. I am not even looking forward to next week.

Daenerys going mad I can see. I really can. I have hope that she has enough of her rationale part left to look at her carnage, horrified, and leaves.  I said years ago that the Iron Throne is a macguffin for her and I think that is becoming more and more true. 

I don't hate Jon as much as some people.  He is one of the few people that believes in honesty and tries to do good.  

And I honestly didn't hate the Jon and Dany arc. I really didn't.

I am blaming the quality on the shortened seasons, resulting in sloppy storytelling.

So...show and books....Dany will go mad but realize that the Iron Throne is a hollow victory and return to Meereen or in search of the house with the red door.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/14/2019 at 4:01 AM, majgat said:

Timeline following Dance of the Dragons book:

 

Daenarys gets her khalasar in Vaes Dothrak via Dosh Khaleen, and Drogon. Goes back to Mereen, where in the meantime, Barristan defeats the weakass Yukai and Astapor with the help of Victarion Greyjoy (acctual Euron in the show?). Barristan's coup blows up in his face by trusting Skahaz and Dany's "loyalist" - gets butchered. Dany gets back at the head of superkhalasar. Goes apeshit and deals with betrayals and the Harpy (probably sacks Mereen). Victarion tries to bind a dragon to his will only to die like a little bitch. Tyrion swoops in and bonds with Dany, setting her sights to Westeros. They sack Volantis and Pentos on their way, leaving questionable people in the lead (Tattered prince). Dany embraces her fire and blood persona (not mad but harsh). Goes West....

Euron pillages the Reach and sacks Oltown after some weird blood sacrifice to the Drown God. Willas and Garlan Tyrell hold him up with success. Euron goes all in and blows the Horn of Joramun, the Wall collapses and Others pour in. Battles with Bran on wargining plane. Gets defeated, turn his eye on Dany. 

Jon's body is in the Ice cells chillin a little while. He's warging and stuff. The wildlings and Jon loyalist murder the mutineers. Melisandre gives him the gift of life. The Wall is in dissaray. Jon's watch has ended. He sulks and gets a bomb drop on him by Howland Reed (he's Rheagar's and Lyana's son - Ned lied to him his whole life). Identity crisis turn up a notch. After Stannis defeats the Boltons, prepares for the fight with Others. They get their asses kicked by the Army of the Dead all over the North. Stannis sacrifices Shireen to turn the tides. They fail, Stannis dies defending Winterfell.

Faegon goes after KL. Gets support from Reach. Lays seige. Connington wants to sack the city Tywin-style. In the meanwhile Cersei  goes cookoo, after Mountain kills Tommen. Myrcella dies as well and Cersei sinks to full Aerys, tries to blow up KL via wildfire cashes. Jaime stops that and strangles her, doing Wildfire plot 2.0. Lannisters fold, Faegon is crowned, Arriane Martell is the queen. Jaime either dies or takes the black (probably 1000th Lord commander). Danearys lays seige to KL from usurper Faegon. Only literal "dance of dragons 2.0" occurs. But Dany blows up KL by ACCIDENT (the caches of wildfire). Gets back to Dragonstone. King Landining becomes Valyrian Chernobyl. Fire and blood didn't workout, she did not get Iron throne. Gets tempted by Euron to join the Others and destroy humanity. Turns away from him and helps Jon and Tyrion defeat the in the Hearth of Winter. The Trio die and Seven Kingdoms break apart.

Sansa overthrows Baelish and gets hold of the Vale through marriage to Harry the Heir, helps the North with defense from the Others. After destruction of KL and victory over the Others, oversees the rebuilding of the Westeros. Has the political experience, savvy and connections.

 

This is how I think the books will end. Didn't think it impossible to transfer to screen. Maybe even possible in 8 season per 10 episodes. That's why book readers are so mad. The thematic narrative is gone, character development and arcs are gone, it is just plot points met in certain times. Thus every episode since season 4 feels flat (episode 10 of season 4 did it for me - I mean skeletors from Jason and Argonauts? Children of the forrest with fireballs? Srsly?). There is no catarsis, no resolution, no layers anymore. Just pure production and shock value. D&D are hacks, I honestly hope I live to see a remake in my lifetime. That's how desperate I am :-D

That isn't a bad ending actually. I hope dany and jon make it out or at least one of them does in the books at least. Dany is already dead in the show and has a look alike impersanating her. However this episode made no sense to me. Hope they do a remake one day though I doubt it.

Edited by snow is the man

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19 hours ago, Makk said:

I think there will be significant difference. The only similarities as I see it will be 

a) The threat of others will be resolved before the war for the throne.

b) Dany will become darker (in a much more believable way) and the people will become distrustful of her dragons.

c) Tyrion will betray Dany by freeing Jaime (the betrayal for love).

I believe George will have told them who he has sitting on the throne (if anyone) but that is the kind of detail I can see them changing to whoever they feel like.

I don't see tyrion freeing his brother. The show tyrion is still friends with jaime and loves him. The book tyrion had jaime betray him in the worst possible way. Part of the reason he decides to help dany in the books is because he believes it will get revenge on his family. Tyrion in the show wants to save his house somehow while helping dany get the throne (though I imagine that's changed now). Tyrion himself is a completly different character in the books after he kills his father then the show tyrion.

I see dany being more brutal but not going mad. Or at least walking the edge of it but not going insane like she did in the show.

 

I think that if GRRM sticks to only having two more books we will see dany take KL either at the end of book 6 or at the very beggining of book 7.

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I think, that while GRRM told them the barebones of what would happen, what we see on the show, is merely D&D ignorant interpretation of such events.

- Event: Daenerys is isolated (she loses her trusted people and the Westerosi backtrack on their alliace) thus takes the whole KL violently with fire and blod.

D&D's interpretation is that she goes on a rampage against smallfolk because she's a bad Targaryen coin flip that finally snaps when her boyfriend's buddies like him better (more screentime is given to her being upset over this than her being ripped apart by the loss of her 'children'). 

But what if -- for example --, after a battle where Daenerys loses another dragon, KL surrenders to fAegon (and his wife) and the smallfolk cheer him?  He spent a life beeing groomed on a boat, while Daenerys went through blood, sweat and tears, hatched dragons, fought slaving cities, and, at the end, lost one dragon and her trusted people because she helped saving Westeros from the WW. Then it would be clear that her consequent actions wouldn't be an hysterical snap to madness, but the continuation of what she has learned through her whole arc: destroy the people who use her and fight for what she was promissed.

- Event: Jaime and Cersei die together.

D&D interpret this as Jaime being unable to get off the Cersei drug. While the real story might be anything from him wanting to kill her to him trying to convert her to the good side of the force.

 

It's the how and why that makes the story -- the books will obviously be a very different one.

 

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