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Fox Mulder

Gendry is not loyal

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

If Dany sits the throne and reestablishes the rule of House Targaryen, House Baratheon has no claim. They can assert all they want, but they would have to claim it either by right of conquest, or by claiming illegitimacy of Dany’s Targaryen heir. 

If dany doesn’t sit the IT, then yeah he has a good claim. Presumably she didn’t legitimize him expecting she’s going to die before she sits the throne so in her mind it’s a moot point. 

As I wrote "in the absence of a better candidate".  Cersei seized power without coup or conquest because no one was left and her status as dowager queen made the transition of power acceptable -obviously.  

If Dany manages to sit on the Throne at some point in the next two hours and forty minutes of screentime (:lol:) and dies, she has no heir.  House Baratheon has Targaryen blood in it (as you noted earlier)  from at least two places in the family tree if some character in the show wants to be help Gendry's claim, but I doubt it will be necessary.  

Edited by Astrotherapist

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12 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Davos as hand. The others, I’m not sure yet. I’d be cool with Arya as mistress of whispers. No Sansa. 

Lots of good options in the books but not so much in the show. 

Agreed no Sansa.  No Arya either, the small council is not her style and her grasp of matters of state is zilch as we can tell in her dialogue with Sansa and Jon in these past two seasons.  If she survives she will continue her psychopathic journey elsewhere, exploring "whatever's West of Westeros" as she told Lady Crane.  

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5 minutes ago, Astrotherapist said:

As I wrote "in the absence of a better candidate".  Cersei seized power without coup or conquest because no one was left and her status as dowager queen made the transition of power acceptable -obviously.  

If Dany manages to sit on the Throne at some point in the next two hours and forty minutes of screentime (:lol:) and dies, she has no heir.  House Baratheon has Targaryen blood in it (as you noted earlier) in from at least two places in the family tree if some character in the show wants to be help Gendry's claim, but I doubt it will be necessary.  

Cersei claimed by conquest. She’s not ruling as Cersei of House Baratheon. She’s ruling as Cersei of House Lannister. 

Gendry has a better claim than Cersei to a Baratheon throne, because Baratheon was the last legitimately crowned house. Cersei wasn’t crowned legitimately except in her mind. 

If Dany succeeds in reestablishing house Targaryen, then Gendry would need to press his claim as a Targaryen heir, not Baratheon  

 

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1 minute ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Cersei claimed by conquest. She’s not ruling as Cersei of House Baratheon. She’s ruling as Cersei of House Lannister. 

Gendry has a better claim than Cersei to a Baratheon throne, because Baratheon was the last legitimately crowned house. Cersei wasn’t crowned legitimately except in her mind. 

If Dany succeeds in reestablishing house Targaryen, then Gendry would need to press his claim as a Targaryen heir, not Baratheon  

 

If she's dead and Jon rejects the Throne, and there are no heirs, it won't matter.

I understand it's a Lannister monarchy right now, she redecorated the Great Hall with their sigils. But when did Cersei conquer the capital or use force to seize the Throne?  The right of conquest is the right of a conqueror to territory taken by force of arms.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Astrotherapist said:

If she's dead and Jon rejects the Throne, and there are no heirs, it won't matter.

I understand it's a Lannister monarchy right now, she redecorated the Great Hall with their sigils. But when did Cersei conquer the capital or use force to seize the Throne?  The right of conquest is the right of a conqueror to territory taken by force of arms.

She didn’t need to use arms. She blew up the Sept along with Margaery who would have possibly been carrying the last Baratheon heir. 

Tommen did her a favor by offing himself immediately afterwards, whether she intended that or not. 

In vacuum left after Tommen, she seized the throne for House Lannister. Whether she’s a legitimate queen or not, Gendry would have to fight her for it. 

The capital just got lucky that she didn’t have to level it to claim the crown. 

Maybe coup is the better term, instead of conquest. 

Edited by The_Spanish_Inquisition

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If Targaryean (Jon or Danaerys) claim IT via as rightful heirs or by conquest, the Baratheon claim is no more.  The only way Gendry (or anybody else) can claim the IT is to raise an army and conquer.

If Daenerys dies (which I believe she will based upon my interpretation of the House of the Unholy visions) and if Jon abdicates his right (which I think he will because he always relinquishes) and if there is no other conquests, the IT should pass via blood lines and the only remaining relatives are Jon's cousins.  Bran doesnt want it and is going to end up merging with the weirwood tree.  So Sansa will be Queen and Tyrion who is still legally married to Sansa, imo, will be King or at least Prince Consort.

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

She didn’t need to use arms. She blew up the Sept along with Margaery who would have possibly been carrying the last Baratheon heir. 

Tommen did her a favor by offing himself immediately afterwards, whether she intended that or not. 

In vacuum left after Tommen, she seized the throne for House Lannister. This doesn’t make her a legitimate queen.

The capital just got lucky that she didn’t have to level it to claim the crown. 

Maybe coup is the better term, instead of conquest. 

The destruction of the Sept happened before the suicide of the King and was not done as a coup since she intended for her son to live.

Coup is just short for coup d'etat and means the overthrow of an existing government, so that's not the right term either. Hmmm.... :lol:Well we agree that she simply seized power as a Lannister, and I think that her presence in the Throne room as Queen or "Queen-Mother" for two decades made the transition of power palatable to the court so that forceful acquisition wasn't required.   

Is there a precedent for that in Westerosi history, or the potential situation with Gendry?  A quick scan through https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Customs isn't telling me there is yet, which makes it hard to predict.  Even harder to know what D&D have decided what is so... without leaks anyway (which I'm avoiding).   

Edited by Astrotherapist

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, funpig said:

If Targaryean (Jon or Danaerys) claim IT via as rightful heirs or by conquest, the Baratheon claim is no more.  The only way Gendry (or anybody else) can claim the IT is to raise an army and conquer.

If Daenerys dies (which I believe she will based upon my interpretation of the House of the Unholy visions) and if Jon abdicates his right (which I think he will because he always relinquishes) and if there is no other conquests, the IT should pass via blood lines and the only remaining relatives are Jon's cousins.  Bran doesnt want it and is going to end up merging with the weirwood tree.  So Sansa will be Queen and Tyrion who is still legally married to Sansa, imo, will be King or at least Prince Consort.

:lol: I sincerely hope not, and that marriage wasn't consummated and she married someone else so isn't it invalid?  And succession passing through matrilineal bloodlines to Starks? Ehhh....

If Jon rejects the Throne without assuming power then it isn't an abdication, not by the definition of the term. 

Gendry won't have to raise an army to claim the Throne, any more than Cersei did.  And I think there's still a possibility for another crazy reveal before all's said and done: R+C=G.  Joe Dempsie's interview with Men's Health in March gave that a little push.  ;)

Edited by Astrotherapist

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Cersei's claim to throne is neither as Lannister nor by conquest.  Her claim is under the Baratheon line, as Robert's widow and from her point of view the only remaining survivor after the deaths of the last Baratheon "children".  She and the rest of the Westeros don't know about Gendry.  Any legitimization of Gendy by Daenerys would not be recognized by Cersei and would have to be settled in court, or on the battlefield.

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4 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Last week I said that there wasn't enough time left to set Daenerys on a path to "madness", and that the show already had an actual Mad Queen in Cersei.

And...well... D&D managed. They did a really shitty job with it and essentially totally ruined a bunch of character arcs, and possibly the whole series by doing it, but they did it none the less.
They will certainly make the time for Gendry if they feel like it, no matter the costs to the show as a whole, but I do think that Gendry isn't important enough.

There is a magnitude of difference in plausibility between Danny going mad and Gendry as Lord Stormland possibly mattering. Danny at least has a family history of mental illness, and people can lose their minds suddenly under extreme stress. Gendry, however, hasn't ever met anyone from the Stormlands, and we don't even know if they have a lord already, let alone whether they're mobilized. 

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, funpig said:

Cersei's claim to throne is neither as Lannister nor by conquest.  Her claim is under the Baratheon line, as Robert's widow and from her point of view the only remaining survivor after the deaths of the last Baratheon "children".  She and the rest of the Westeros don't know about Gendry.  Any legitimization of Gendy by Daenerys would not be recognized by Cersei and would have to be settled in court, or on the battlefield.

Then why is the Great Hall decorated with Lannister lion sigils and not Baratheon stags?  

Gendry was legitimized in public, in the feasting Hall at Winterfell in front of witnesses, including nobility.  Cersei doesn't have to acknowledge it, and unless I am missing something, this conversation refers to the aftermath of the battle which will (presumably) topple her from power and end in her death.  

Edited by Astrotherapist

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16 minutes ago, Astrotherapist said:

The destruction of the Sept happened before the suicide of the King and was not done as a coup since she intended for her son to live.

Coup is just short for coup d'etat and means the overthrow of an existing government, so that's not the right term either. Hmmm.... :lol:Well we agree that she simply seized power as a Lannister, and I think that her presence in the Throne room as Queen or "Queen-Mother" for two decades made the transition of power palatable to the court so that forceful acquisition wasn't required.   

Is there a precedent for that in Westerosi history, or the potential situation with Gendry?  A quick scan through https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Customs isn't telling me there is yet, which makes it hard to predict.  Even harder to know what D&D have decided is so... without leaks anyway (which I'm avoiding).   

She blew up the sept to eliminate the personal threat of the faith militant, and to eliminate Margaery. Tommen taking a dive was a lucky turn for her 

I guess whatever we want to call it, Cersei gonna Cersei lol

Regardless, Gendry has nothing right now unless dany/Jon are out of the picture and he wants to reclaim the throne for House Baratheon. 

Not sure about westerosi history, but lots of interesting precedents in English history about assuming a throne that doesn’t belong to you.

Edward I did it when Margaret of Norway died and left Scotland without a direct heir.

Henry Bolingbroke did it when he usurped Richard II ( interestingly he wanted to claim by right of conquest but was convinced to claim by right of birth that he didn’t really have grounds for, and it haunted him)

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6 minutes ago, Astrotherapist said:

:lol: I sincerely hope not, and that marriage wasn't consummated and she married someone else so isn't it invalid?  And succession passing through matrilineal bloodlines to Starks? Ehhh....

If Jon rejects the Throne without assuming power then it isn't an abdication, not by the definition of the term. 

Gendry won't have to raise an army to claim the Throne, any more than Cersei did.  And I think there's still a possibility for another crazy reveal before all's said and done: R+C=G.  Joe Dempsie's interview with Men's Health in March gave that a little push.  ;)

Read up on "marriage" and "annullment" in both Wikipedia and in the Game of Thrones Wiki.

Sansa and Tyrion were most definitely married.

The failure to consummate is GROUNDS for an annullment but does not void the marriage.  There has to be a formal annulment order and this was never done, at least on screen.  So, imo, Tyrion and Sansa are still married

The only person who told the Boltons and viewers that Sansa could enter into the second marriage was Peter Baelish, and we all know he is a liar.

That would mean the Ramsey-Sansa marriage was bigamous and void. Any consummation was just plain rape.

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4 hours ago, Forlong the Fat said:

It's not bad writing. It makes him more loyal to him than he would be otherwise.  It doesn't have to create absolute loyalty to be useful. And he is the best known, living candidate to be Lord of Storm's End.

Only because we don't know anything about the Stormlands, aside from the fact that Stannis and Renly fought over them. Gendry looks like a young Robert allegedly, he swings a hammer, and he has friends in high places. That's about it.

Otherwise, he's some bastard Flea Bottom armorer's apprentice. There has to be more nobility in the region than three dead Baratheon brothers. I'm sure one of them would appeal to the people as a better candidate than a guy with Baratheon blood who lived his life as a peasant and hasn't ever been there. 

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4 hours ago, Erkan12 said:

First Gendry needs to be the Lord of Storm's End, and he is not currently. No house from Stormlands know him. He is a long term investment, not something she can use it right now.

In the long term, if he becomes Lord of Storm's End, he would do what Dany says, after all she made him a lord. Arya wouldn't, and couldn't say anything about it, she rejected Gendry's marriage offer after all.

True, but which woman does a guy really listen to, the one who gave him a really good job, or the one who says shut up and take off your pants?

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

If Dany dies, though, Gendry wouldn’t become heir to the IT - he’s not Targaryen. 

He’d have to reclaim it by conquest for House Baratheon, as Dany is doing despite her claims that it’s hers by birth.  

He could potentially claim it as a Targaryen from a few generations ago, but there are also other recent-ish Targaryen bloodlines that could dispute him. 

Was Robert not the closest Targaryen relative outside Danny and Viserys? We were meant to believe her line was wiped out, not counting Jon. 

Anyway, as the legitimized son of a former king I think he would have the leg up on anyone else with Targaryen blood. 

Edited by darmody

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6 minutes ago, funpig said:

Read up on "marriage" and "annullment" in both Wikipedia and in the Game of Thrones Wiki.

Sansa and Tyrion were most definitely married.

The failure to consummate is GROUNDS for an annullment but does not void the marriage.  There has to be a formal annulment order and this was never done, at least on screen.  So, imo, Tyrion and Sansa are still married

The only person who told the Boltons and viewers that Sansa could enter into the second marriage was Peter Baelish, and we all know he is a liar.

That would mean the Ramsey-Sansa marriage was bigamous and void. Any consummation was just plain rape.

Tyrion was assumed to be dead, so Sansa marrying Ramsay was not bigamous. They were a told she was a widow  

The union with Ramsey was most definitely consummated, and makes the status of her previous marriage to a not-dead Tyrion much murkier. 

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1 hour ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

If Dany sits the throne and reestablishes the rule of House Targaryen, House Baratheon has no claim. They can assert all they want, but they would have to claim it either by right of conquest, or by claiming illegitimacy of Dany’s Targaryen heir. 

If dany doesn’t sit the IT, then yeah he has a good claim. Presumably she didn’t legitimize him expecting she’s going to die before she sits the throne so in her mind it’s a moot point. 

If Danny doesn't sit the Iron Throne, the how would Gendry be legitimate? His claim would only be so strong as people care about the bastard of Robert Baratheon who fought bravely against zombies. 

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6 minutes ago, Astrotherapist said:

Then why is the Great Hall decorated with Lannister lion sigils and not Baratheon stags?  

Gendry was legitimized in public, in the feasting Hall at Winterfell in front of witnesses, including nobility.  Cersei doesn't have to acknowledge it, and unless I am missing something, this conversation refers to the aftermath of the battle which will (presumably) topple her from power and end in her death.  

A king or queen can adopt whatever sigil he or she wants. If Cersei choses to adopt the Lion, that is her perogative when she became queen.  But that does not change how the throne legally passed up to her as a widow to Robert Baratheon.  She did not get the throne when she blew up the Sept.  She inherited the throne onky when her son Tommen died leaving her as the last known survivor of the Baratheon line.

Gendry's legitimization was months later at winterfell and declared by a foreign queen who is not recognized by the current Iron Throne and those in power at Kings Landing.  Ergo, matter for the courts or battlefield.

Gendry's claim will become moot if the Kingdom recognizes the Targaryean (Jon or Daenaerys) as rightful claimants or onquest.  But he and anybody else is  free to raise an army and try to claim it later by conquest.

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6 minutes ago, darmody said:

Only because we don't know anything about the Stormlands, aside from the fact that Stannis and Renly fought over them. Gendry looks like a young Robert allegedly, he swings a hammer, and he has friends in high places. That's about it.

Otherwise, he's some bastard Flea Bottom armorer's apprentice. There has to be more nobility in the region than three dead Baratheon brothers. I'm sure one of them would appeal to the people as a better candidate than a guy with Baratheon blood who lived his life as a peasant and hasn't ever been there. 

 

How many Stormlanders now alive would remember Robert as a young man and be able to spot Gendry's resemblance to him?  I would think that most of Robert's peers and retainers might have been killed off with Stannis or during Robert's Rebellion or elsewhere by now.  Why would the remaining Stormland nobility accept an illiterate peasant as their lord?  Why would they believe that Gendry is Robert's son on the say-so of some foreign-born queen and those savage Northerners?  Gendry's only chance to claim Storm's Land is to take it with a certain number of troops and make a marital alliance with some influential Stormlands noble house who will uphold his claim and teach him local manners and customs.  And even then, I think Gendry will be very unhappy.  He's a blacksmith; he's good at it and enjoys his work and he's not going to be able to continue doing so as the Lord of the Stormlands, not if he wants credibility in his new role.

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