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Fox Mulder

Gendry is not loyal

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Just now, darmody said:

If Danny doesn't sit the Iron Throne, the how would Gendry be legitimate? His claim would only be so strong as people care about the bastard of Robert Baratheon who fought bravely against zombies. 

Yep, all depends on Dany. If she does before assuming the throne, Gendry is back to being nothing. 

He could potentially fight Cersei for the IT, as an heir to house Baratheon (legitimate or not), but he’d have to overthrow her first. 

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10 minutes ago, darmody said:

Was Robert not the closest Targaryen relative outside Danny and Viserys? We were meant to believe her line was wiped out, not counting Jon. 

Anyway, as the legitimized son of a former king I think he would have the leg up on anyone else with Targaryen blood. 

Robert was the closet Targaryen heir, before dany and now Jon. 

But he didn’t claim as a Targaryen so him having any Targaryen blood means nothing, and dany has the better claim in that regard, by far. 

Gendry could reestablish house Baratheon if he wanted, but not house Targaryen unless both dany and Jon die. 

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5 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Yep, all depends on Dany. If she does before assuming the throne, Gendry is back to being nothing. 

He could potentially fight Cersei for the IT, as an heir to house Baratheon (legitimate or not), but he’d have to overthrow her first. 

I think you, yourself mentioned this all happened in the great hall of WF. Everyone there saw it and if they didn't before, now knows his heritage. I honestly only see Cersei as a potential problem. Making Gendry Lord Baratheon makes sense for all parties, Dany, Jon, Sansa, Tyrion etc because just as Dany hopes that it ties him to her, it would tie him to any of them that asserted his claim, should Dany die. 

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7 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Tyrion was assumed to be dead, so Sansa marrying Ramsay was not bigamous. They were a told she was a widow  

The union with Ramsey was most definitely consummated, and makes the status of her previous marriage to a not-dead Tyrion much murkier. 

I am pretty sure that there was never a claim that Tyrion was dead (he was on the run) or that Sansa was a widow.  If you can find the scene let me know.

Like an annulment, if a married person wants to claim that a missing spouse is dead so that person could legally remarry, they would need to get an order or decree, which was never done, onscreen anyways.

I have been binge watching the past episodes and am up to Season 5.  When Varys and Tyrion landed in Essos and they go to the brothel, he had a chance to hook up with a whore but could not do it.  I interpreted that to mean he has taken his marriage vows seriously.

I might be off base with my theory on the marriage and anullment. But my theory is still Sansa and Tyrion as co-rulers in the end.  Two more shows and we will all know for sure.

 

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8 minutes ago, Wik said:

I think you, yourself mentioned this all happened in the great hall of WF. Everyone there saw it and if they didn't before, now knows his heritage. I honestly only see Cersei as a potential problem. Making Gendry Lord Baratheon makes sense for all parties, Dany, Jon, Sansa, Tyrion etc because just as Dany hopes that it ties him to her, it would tie him to any of them that asserted his claim, should Dany die. 

Exactly. Legitimizing gendry both eliminates possible other Baratheon relatives from causing her problems going forward, and presumably makes him loyal to her. 

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5 minutes ago, funpig said:

I am pretty sure that there was never a claim that Tyrion was dead (he was on the run) or that Sansa was a widow.  If you can find the scene let me know.

Like an annulment, if a married person wants to claim that a missing spouse is dead so that person could legally remarry, they would need to get an order or decree, which was never done, onscreen anyways.

I have been binge watching the past episodes and am up to Season 5.  When Varys and Tyrion landed in Essos and they go to the brothel, he had a chance to hook up with a whore but could not do it.  I interpreted that to mean he has taken his marriage vows seriously.

I might be off base with my theory on the marriage and anullment. But my theory is still Sansa and Tyrion as co-rulers in the end.  Two more shows and we will all know for sure.

 

I thought I recalled that Cersei spread the rumor that he was dead, while secretly having people hunt for his head. I could be wrong. 

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2 hours ago, Astrotherapist said:

Agreed no Sansa.  No Arya either, the small council is not her style and her grasp of matters of state is zilch as we can tell in her dialogue with Sansa and Jon in these past two seasons.  If she survives she will continue her psychopathic journey elsewhere, exploring "whatever's West of Westeros" as she told Lady Crane.  

Assuming she would even accept, I wouldn’t mind Arya in that role. She’s probably less psychopathic than Littlefinger, honestly lol

that said, I really want her return to the faceless men and live out her destiny, her defense of the stark lineage satisfied.  

So Davos for hand, Arya for whispers, Yara as master of ships, Sam as master of coin. 

I’d also accept Sam as hand and Davos as master of ships if need be. 

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1 hour ago, funpig said:

Read up on "marriage" and "annullment" in both Wikipedia and in the Game of Thrones Wiki.

Sansa and Tyrion were most definitely married.

The failure to consummate is GROUNDS for an annullment but does not void the marriage.  There has to be a formal annulment order and this was never done, at least on screen.  So, imo, Tyrion and Sansa are still married

The only person who told the Boltons and viewers that Sansa could enter into the second marriage was Peter Baelish, and we all know he is a liar.

That would mean the Ramsey-Sansa marriage was bigamous and void. Any consummation was just plain rape.

She most certainly and lawfully remarried because the first marriage was not consummated and it is rendered void by the second union that replaced it. 

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1 minute ago, Astrotherapist said:

She most certainly and lawfully remarried because the first marriage was not consummated and it is rendered void by the second union that replaced it. 

Proving it wasn’t consummated is a big undertaking, though. They were married long enough (and shared a bed) that it would really be a tough sell, particularly given Tyrion’s reputation as a fan of the ladies.  

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1 minute ago, Astrotherapist said:

She most certainly and lawfully remarried because the first marriage was not consummated and it is rendered void by the second union that replaced it. 

You cannot void a first marriage by simply enterring a second marriage.  There has to be an order or decree of an annullment (or divorce) before one can enter into a second marriage. On the other hand Sansa's second purported marriage is automatically void ab initio because of the first marriage. Anyways, definitely repeating myself.  Let's see what happens in the last two episodes.

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48 minutes ago, funpig said:

A king or queen can adopt whatever sigil he or she wants. If Cersei choses to adopt the Lion, that is her perogative when she became queen.  But that does not change how the throne legally passed up to her as a widow to Robert Baratheon.  She did not get the throne when she blew up the Sept.  She inherited the throne onky when her son Tommen died leaving her as the last known survivor of the Baratheon line.

Gendry's legitimization was months later at winterfell and declared by a foreign queen who is not recognized by the current Iron Throne and those in power at Kings Landing.  Ergo, matter for the courts or battlefield.

Gendry's claim will become moot if the Kingdom recognizes the Targaryean (Jon or Daenaerys) as rightful claimants or onquest.  But he and anybody else is  free to raise an army and try to claim it later by conquest.

She has not been named Cersei Baratheon but Cersei Lannister instead in the show, even recently.  She was the dowager queen or widow of Robert tue, but does not have Baratheon blood in her veins, nor is she the dowager/widow of the last Baratheon King, but his mother.  She is not identified as an acting Baratheon monarch anywhere.

"With the deaths of Stannis and Shireen, the bloodline of House Baratheon became legally extinct (Lord Gendry Baratheon was an unacknowledged bastard of Robert Baratheon and thus was not entitled to claim the Baratheon name). With the death of Tommen, the people of Westeros believed that House Baratheon was completely extinct until Daenerys Targaryen's legitimization of Lord Gendry."

https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/House_Baratheon

Quote

Gendry's claim will become moot if the Kingdom recognizes the Targaryean (Jon or Daenaerys) as rightful claimants or onquest.  But he and anybody else is  free to raise an army and try to claim it later by conquest.

Gendry is "free" to be named King by an acting council after Dany dies and Jon splits which is the outcome I'm betting that we'll see.  

 

 

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10 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Proving it wasn’t consummated is a big undertaking, though. They were married long enough (and shared a bed) that it would really be a tough sell, particularly given Tyrion’s reputation as a fan of the ladies.  

He admitted on show to Jon and Davos that it was never consummated.

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51 minutes ago, Wik said:

I think you, yourself mentioned this all happened in the great hall of WF. Everyone there saw it and if they didn't before, now knows his heritage. I honestly only see Cersei as a potential problem. Making Gendry Lord Baratheon makes sense for all parties, Dany, Jon, Sansa, Tyrion etc because just as Dany hopes that it ties him to her, it would tie him to any of them that asserted his claim, should Dany die. 

The look on Jaime's face when that was announced :lol:

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1 hour ago, funpig said:

A king or queen can adopt whatever sigil he or she wants. If Cersei choses to adopt the Lion, that is her perogative when she became queen.  But that does not change how the throne legally passed up to her as a widow to Robert Baratheon.  She did not get the throne when she blew up the Sept.  She inherited the throne onky when her son Tommen died leaving her as the last known survivor of the Baratheon line.

Gendry's legitimization was months later at winterfell and declared by a foreign queen who is not recognized by the current Iron Throne and those in power at Kings Landing.  Ergo, matter for the courts or battlefield.

Gendry's claim will become moot if the Kingdom recognizes the Targaryean (Jon or Daenaerys) as rightful claimants or onquest.  But he and anybody else is  free to raise an army and try to claim it later by conquest.

Cersei didn’t, and couldn’t claim the throne as Roberts widow. She is nowhere in the line of succession as a widow. 

She simply assumed the throne after Tommen died, because no one stood (or was able) to defy her. 

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, funpig said:

I have been binge watching the past episodes and am up to Season 5.  When Varys and Tyrion landed in Essos and they go to the brothel, he had a chance to hook up with a whore but could not do it.  I interpreted that to mean he has taken his marriage vows seriously.

I might be off base with my theory on the marriage and anullment. But my theory is still Sansa and Tyrion as co-rulers in the end.  Two more shows and we will all know for sure.

 

No, he abstained because he suddenly realized that he wasn't over Shae, whom he just tragically murdered.  If it was marriage fidelity, he wouldn't even bothered going to a brothel.

Edited by Astrotherapist

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5 minutes ago, Astrotherapist said:

He admitted on show to Jon and Davos that it was never consummated.

Saying a marriage wasn’t consummated didn’t work for Catherine of Aragon and won’t work for Sansa or Tyrion either lol

Not that it matters in the show though 

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1 hour ago, darmody said:

Only because we don't know anything about the Stormlands, aside from the fact that Stannis and Renly fought over them. Gendry looks like a young Robert allegedly, he swings a hammer, and he has friends in high places. That's about it.

Otherwise, he's some bastard Flea Bottom armorer's apprentice. There has to be more nobility in the region than three dead Baratheon brothers. I'm sure one of them would appeal to the people as a better candidate than a guy with Baratheon blood who lived his life as a peasant and hasn't ever been there. 

I have no idea where you're getting this. Renly, Stannis, and Robert are all dead.  Their children are all dead, with the known exception of Gendry. Gendry is the only known heir to the Stormlands.

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24 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Assuming she would even accept, I wouldn’t mind Arya in that role. She’s probably less psychopathic than Littlefinger, honestly lol

that said, I really want her return to the faceless men and live out her destiny, her defense of the stark lineage satisfied.  

So Davos for hand, Arya for whispers, Yara as master of ships, Sam as master of coin. 

I’d also accept Sam as hand and Davos as master of ships if need be. 

Littlefinger never had a bloodbath like the Braavos Chainsaw Massacre of Meryn Trant nor baked his victims into pies.   And her words to both Jon and Sansa had a threatening edge to them - she's fucking nuts!  

I'd like Sam to rule of the Reach, from Horn Hill.  

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7 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

I have no idea where you're getting this. Renly, Stannis, and Robert are all dead.  Their children are all dead, with the known exception of Gendry. Gendry is the only known heir to the Stormlands.

There are certainly other heirs somewhere, given how the houses have been intermarrying for hundreds of years. 

If gendry isn’t legitimized, someone else would likely be found with a claim to inherit the house. 

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Just now, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

There are certainly other heirs somewhere, given how the houses have been intermarrying for hundreds of years. 

If gendry isn’t legitimized, someone else would likely be found with a claim to inherit the house. 

There are not superior heirs. We know all of the offspring of Robert, Stannis, and Renly, and Gendry is it.

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