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Gendry is not loyal

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6 minutes ago, Astrotherapist said:

Littlefinger never had a bloodbath like the Braavos Chainsaw Massacre of Meryn Trant nor baked his victims into pies.   And her words to both Jon and Sansa had a threatening edge to them - she's fucking nuts!  

I'd like Sam to rule of the Reach, from Horn Hill.  

So Arya is out as chief pie maker to the royal household, lol?

I’d also kind of like Sam to take up the inheritance he was denied, but I cant really see him wanting that. I think he’s grown far past wanting to fight as some banner lord. 

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8 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

There are not superior heirs. We know all of the offspring of Robert, Stannis, and Renly, and Gendry is it.

They’re lesser heirs only because Gendry has been made legitimate, and that will likely only stick if dany sits the throne, or Jon. 

If gendry returns to bastardized status, or dies without heirs, the other heirs will become very relevant. 

A lesser heir trumps a bastard any day. 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

They’re lesser heirs only because Gendry has been made legitimate, and that will likely only stick if dany sits the throne, or Jon. 

If gendry returns to bastardized status, or dies without heirs, the other heirs will become very relevant. 

A lesser heir trumps a bastard any day. 

Not in common practice. Henry VIII's bastard was considered as a potential heir to the throne at one point. It is perfectly reasonable that a bastard would be considered as heir to the Baratheon lordship prior to indirect relations, especially considering the circumstances of Gendry's service in the war against the others.

Edited by Forlong the Fat

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1 minute ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

They’re lesser heirs only because Gendry has been made legitimate, and that will likely only stick if dany sits the throne, or Jon. 

If gendry returns to bastardized status, or dies without heirs, the other heirs will become very relevant. 

A lesser heir trumps a bastard any day. 

Or Gendry is the trueborn son of Robert and Cersei  who survived and was filed away with Tobho Mott for a rainy day by Varys.  :D

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2 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

Not in common practice. Henry VIII's bastard was considered as a potential heir to the throne at one point. It is perfectly reasonable that a bastard would be considered as heir prior to indirect relations, especially considering the circumstances of Gendry's service in the war against the others.

Second succession act? That gave Henry VIII the option to choose Henry FitzRoy as his heir, and only because he was incensed that he hadn’t been provided a male heir and had bastardized his actual (female) heirs. 

But really, it would depend on the leader and the heir, probably. Some were more open to bastards inheriting than others  

 

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

There are certainly other heirs somewhere, given how the houses have been intermarrying for hundreds of years. 

If gendry isn’t legitimized, someone else would likely be found with a claim to inherit the house. 

Unless it's written, shown or mentioned, it doesn't exist, and certainly can't be assumed as truth.  

I was reading through a subreddit entitled:

Complete Guide to Westerosi Succession

Here's the line of succession for the Baratheons:

House Baratheon of King's Landing
Robert > Joffrey > Tommen > Myrcella > Gendry1 > Edric Storm1 > Mya Stone1 > Stannis2 > Shireen2 > Renly

House Baratheon of Storm's End
Renly > Robert > Joffrey > Tommen > Myrcella > Gendry1 > Edric Storm1 > Mya Stone1 > Stannis2 > Shireen2

House Baratheon of Dragonstone
Stannis2 > Shireen2 > Robert > Joffrey > Tommen > Myrcella > Gendry1 > Edric Storm1 > Mya Stone1 > Renly

 

 

Edited by Astrotherapist

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2 minutes ago, Astrotherapist said:

Unless it's written, shown or mentioned, it doesn't exist, and certainly can't be assumed as truth.  

I was reading through a subreddit entitled:

Complete Guide to Westerosi Succession

Here's the line of succession for the Baratheons:

House Baratheon of King's Landing
Robert > Joffrey > Tommen > Myrcella > Gendry1 > Edric Storm1 > Mya Stone1 > Stannis2 > Shireen2 > Renly

House Baratheon of Storm's End
Renly > Robert > Joffrey > Tommen > Myrcella > Gendry1 > Edric Storm1 > Mya Stone1 > Stannis2 > Shireen2

House Baratheon of Dragonstone
Stannis2 > Shireen2 > Robert > Joffrey > Tommen > Myrcella > Gendry1 > Edric Storm1 > Mya Stone1 > Renly

 

 

It doesn’t matter in the show, especially at this point I’m sure. I guess I’m just enjoying discussing obscure succession rules lol.

Mya and Edric don’t exist in the show anyway. Regardless of direct succession lines, it doesn’t preclude said distant relations from attempting a claim anyway. 

Harry the Heir is set to inherit the Vale in the books (after sweet robin) and he’s several links removed from Jon Arryn and from a different house altogether. 

 

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3 hours ago, Forlong the Fat said:

I have no idea where you're getting this. Renly, Stannis, and Robert are all dead.  Their children are all dead, with the known exception of Gendry. Gendry is the only known heir to the Stormlands.

There was only the immediate Baratheon family? They didn't have cousins? What about the other houses in that kingdom? Were there no Baratheon blood ties in them? 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Forlong the Fat said:

There are not superior heirs. We know all of the offspring of Robert, Stannis, and Renly, and Gendry is it.

There are no superior heirs if you consider Gendry legitimate. But if it's just some dragon lady saying it? And if he was a bastard commoner with no preparation for living the life of a noble? From Flea Bottom. Who had never been to the Stormlands, nor knew anybody there. Nor do the people who elevated him know anyone there, apparently. They don't even know who's running things now. 

Edited by darmody

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

If Dany dies, though, Gendry wouldn’t become heir to the IT - he’s not Targaryen. 

He’d have to reclaim it by conquest for House Baratheon, as Dany is doing despite her claims that it’s hers by birth.  

He could potentially claim it as a Targaryen from a few generations ago, but there are also other recent-ish Targaryen bloodlines that could dispute him. 

Do people just forget that the Baratheon line started with Orys Baratheon, Aegon Targaryen's half brother? After the Targaryens, the Baratheons are their closest relatives historically besides House Velaryon going all the way back to the Conquest. This is the whole reason Robert was made King after RR, not because he wanted to be King, and him having a Targaryen grandmother just solidified his claim out of him, Jon, and Eddard. Robert even wished Jon or Ned had taken the throne over him!

In the books sure there are other houses with Targaryen blood in them that could take over in this scenario over Gendry, but in the show universe besides Dany and Jon, I'm pretty sure the only other character with Targaryen blood is Gendry so if those two are off the table he is the natural 3rd in line if his legitimization by Dany remains valid. As I doubt they'd bring in a Velaryon, etc to take over at the end without having introduced them to the audience beforehand.

Edited by Adam_Up_Bxtch

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18 minutes ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

Do people just forget that the Baratheon line started with Orys Baratheon, Aegon Targaryen's half brother? After the Targaryens, the Baratheons are their closest relatives historically besides House Velaryon going all the way back to the Conquest. This is the whole reason Robert was made King after RR, not because he wanted to be King, and him having a Targaryen grandmother just solidified his claim out of him, Jon, and Eddard. Robert even wished Jon or Ned had taken the throne over him!

In the books sure there are other houses with Targaryen blood in them that could take over in this scenario over Gendry, but in the show universe besides Dany and Jon, I'm pretty sure the only other character with Targaryen blood is Gendry so if those two are off the table he is the natural 3rd in line if his legitimization by Dany remains valid. As I doubt they'd bring in a Velaryon, etc to take over at the end without having introduced them to the audience beforehand.

Robert won the throne by conquest. The Maesters just attempted to use his Targaryen ancestry as justification. In reality, his ancestry had nothing to do with anything. 

Robert had already announced his intention to take the throne before he even killed Rhaegar. 

Yes, in the show they’ve greatly simplified house succession. Presumably to make it easier to understand. 

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From Danaerys' point of view, Robert was a usurper who wrongfully took the Iron Throne from her family.  Therefore, Robert and his entire line (Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella, Genddry, Stannis, Renley) would have no claim to the throne.  Legitimizing Gendry and making him lord of House Baratheon would not give him a claim to the throne in Danaerys' logic.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Robert won the throne by conquest. The Maesters just attempted to use his Targaryen ancestry as justification. In reality, his ancestry had nothing to do with anything. 

Robert had already announced his intention to take the throne before he even killed Rhaegar. 

Yes, in the show they’ve greatly simplified house succession. Presumably to make it easier to understand. 

Yes, but if the Targaryen house was to die out the Baratheons would be the closest blood relatives. That would inherit or have the best claim anyways, besides the Martells maybe?

Edited by Adam_Up_Bxtch

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Robert won the throne by conquest. The Maesters just attempted to use his Targaryen ancestry as justification. 

Technically, Tywin took King's Landing, and Jaime killed Aerys. They weren't conquered. They handed the throne over. 

Furthermore, many armies were involved in winning the war, not just Robert's forces. Starks, Aryns, etc. They had to be convinced to elevate Robert. 

Cersei tried to make it out like Ned played the Game of Thrones by ordering Jaime off the seat after the Mad King's death. Imagine if Ned had claimed the throne then. Could he? Why not? Strength of arms, or because Robert had a better claim?

Killing Rhaegar and so forth is one thing. However, Robert is king because they were able to convince the other lords and the people that he deserved it. 

Edited by darmody

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53 minutes ago, darmody said:

Technically, Tywin took King's Landing, and Jaime killed Aerys. They weren't conquered. They handed the throne over. 

Furthermore, many armies were involved in winning the war, not just Robert's forces. Starks, Aryns, etc. They had to be convinced to elevate Robert. 

Cersei tried to make it out like Ned played the Game of Thrones by ordering Jaime off the seat after the Mad King's death. Imagine if Ned had claimed the throne then. Could he? Why not? Strength of arms, or because Robert had a better claim?

Killing Rhaegar and so forth is one thing. However, Robert is king because they were able to convince the other lords and the people that he deserved it. 

“They” took the throne, by force, against the will of the seated monarch. That’s what conquest is. It doesn’t matter who physically took it, or which part of the army took what city, or whether Aerys was killed in combat or shanked in the back by Jaime. 

Robert then assumed the throne, as Robert Baratheon.  His Targaryen ancestry was completely irrelevant to everyone except some of the Maesters. 

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24 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

“They” took the throne, by force, against the will of the seated monarch. That’s what conquest is. It doesn’t matter who physically took it, or which part of the army took what city, or whether Aerys was killed in combat or shanked in the back by Jaime. 

Robert then assumed the throne, as Robert Baratheon.  His Targaryen ancestry was completely irrelevant to everyone except some of the Maesters. 

Yes, "they," not Robert alone. If you don't think Robert's ancestry had anything to do with it, what was it, exactly? Not conquest. Being a war hero, killing the crown prince, agreeing to marry Tywin's daughter, being friends with Ned and Jon Aryn, etc. 

I find it hard to believe being the closest Targaryen relative had nothing to do with it. 

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2 minutes ago, darmody said:

Yes, "they," not Robert alone. If you don't think Robert's ancestry had anything to do with it, what was it, exactly? Not conquest. Being a war hero, killing the crown prince, agreeing to marry Tywin's daughter, being friends with Ned and Jon Aryn, etc. 

I find it hard to believe being the closest Targaryen relative had nothing to do with it. 

I did a quick look at the ASOIAf wiki entry for Roberts Rebellion just now. He declared his intent to seize the throne,  was indeed supported by the others because of his Targaryen bloodline (as you said), killed Rhaegar, but ultimately took the throne by right of conquest. 

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Posted (edited)

Great thread, and I agree with OP. Several points to add on:

- This scene was well done because it matches Book!Dany perfectly. When she called out Gendry's name it was like *record scratch*. My heart stopped and everyone else's did too. You could see Jon and Davos exchanging freak-out looks. What this did was illustrate how Dany puts everyone on edge. You never know what she is going to say or do, and that would be nerve-wracking over the course of her rule. GRRM spoke about this wild card characterization of her in one of his interviews, saying "she really could do anything."

- On the surface it was smart, it makes Gendry indebted to her and makes her look magnanimous. It should put people at ease that she's not out for vengeance. Tyrion says it was a smart play. But was it? Maybe in King's Landing politics, but this is the North, and these are the Starks and their friends. The bonds go deeper than throwing titles at someone. 

- If Arya had accepted Gendry's proposal it would have been good for Dany because now she'd have a Stark daughter allied to the south. But Arya foiled that. 

- Gendry could very easily kneel to Jon. Jon would instantly have Storm's End and will have taken it away from Dany. I think Gendry won't know the risk he takes doing that though...and Dany could burn him. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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