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In your opinion - who are the smart people left?

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Posted (edited)

I wonder why, when discussing this show, people so completely fail to recognize that an important part of intelligence is to look at long as well as short run consequences of choices. It's become de riguer to insist that Jon Snow is a moron and that Everything Tyrion now says is stupid, while the conniving manipulators -- Qyburn, Littlefinger, perhaps Sansa are smart.  But the show is set in a world, like ours, where fates are determined by the actions of others as well as ourselves. In such a world nothing is guaranteed.  But being a manipulating bastard is not an obviously smart strategy. Jon's so called stupidity (at every opportunity trying whatever the cost to himself to do the right thing) has won him friends, respect, and taken him from a position where he's the equal of convicts to the leadership of the north. Littlefinger's conniving left him friendless and dead.  Granted Ned Stark is equally dead, but so too is Tywin.  Intelligence clearly isn't the ability to avoid bad consequences.  

The fact is, Tyrion's consistent refrain -- that an outsider queen, daughter of a madman -- has a barrier of distrust to overcome.  She has the power to conquer in the end but if she wants to bring justice to the people as she claims; then vengefulness and brutality won't work.  That isn't obviously stupid advice even if it means delayed victory.  The show is presenting us with people who are turning on Dany and mistrustful of her and that is a predictable and predicted (by Tyrion and others) consequence of actions she's taken -- particularly her mercilessness toward anyone who questions her right to rule.  We've seen the stage set for Dany's downfall and it's a consequence of her actions -- actions taken against the advice of Tyrion even though the immediate consequences of those actions may have seemed good. So is Tyrion's advice stupid?  I don't think, even in the context of the show, we can say that yet. 

 

The only real question here is what the rest of the story is and the story.  assuming Tyrion is "smart" (ie the writers choose to direct things so that Tyrion's advice will in retrospect be seen to have been good) that story will either be of Dany's downfall or her redemption.  If Tyrion is"stupid" (the show is written so that in retrospect his advice will seem bad) then there will be some kind of lasting triumph for Dany notwithstanding a brutal and merciless vengeance from her.   My guess is that's not how the show will end but we'll know soon enough.  I am confident, that however it ends for Dany (and so however smart or stupid Tyrion's counsel of temperance turns out to be) Qyburn will very, very soon be seen to have horribly misjudged matters and so be stupid. 

Edited by Capo Ferro

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5 minutes ago, Capo Ferro said:

I wonder why, when discussing this show, people so completely fail to recognize that an important part of intelligence is to look at long as well as short run consequences of choices. It's become de riguer to insist that Jon Snow is a moron and that Everything Tyrion now says is stupid, while the conniving manipulators -- Qyburn, Littlefinger, perhaps Sansa are smart.  But the show is set in a world, like ours, where fates are determined by the and of others. In such a world nothing is guaranteed.  But being a manipulating bastard is not an obviously smart strategy. Jon's so called stupidity (at every opportunity trying whatever the cost to himself to do the right thing) has won him friends, respect, and taken him from a position where he's the equal of convicts to the leadership of the north. Littlefinger's conniving left him friends and dead.  Granted Ned Stark is equally dead, but so too is Tywin.  Intelligence clearly isn't the ability to avoid bad consequences.  

The fact is, Tyrion's consistent refrain -- that an outsider queen, daughter of a madman -- has a barrier of distrust to overcome.  She has the power to conquer in the end but if she wants to bring justice to the people as she claims vengefulness and brutality won't work.  That isn't obviously stupid advice even if it means delayed victory.  The show is presenting is with people who are turning on Dany and mistrustful of her and that is a predictable and predicted (by Tyrion and others) consequence of actions she's taken -- her mercilessness toward anyone who questions her right to rule.  We've seen the stage set for Dany's downfall and it's a consequence of her actions taken against the advice of Tyrion even though the immediate consequences of that action may have seemed good. So is Tyrion's advice stupid?  I don't think, even in the context of the show, we can say that yet. 

 

The only real question here is what the rest of the story is and the story, assuming Tyrion is "smart" (ie the writers choose to direct things so that Tyrion's advice will in retrospect be seen to have been good) will either be of Dany's downfall or her redemption.  If Tyrion is"stupid" (the show is written so that in retrospect his advice will seem bad) then there will be some kind of lasting triumph for Dany notwithstanding a brutal and merciless vengeance from her.   My guess is that's not how the show will end but we'll know soon enough.  I am confident, that however it ends for Dany (and so however smart or stupid Tyrion's counsel of temperance turns out to be) Qyburn will very, very soon be seen to have horribly misjudged matters and so be stupid. 

That’s kind of the point, though. Both Jon and Tyrion have made some seriously questionable decisions, both short-term and long-term. 

Tyrion especially has made some choices that are just objectively bad, or far too dependent on the chips falling in a certain unlikely manner to be successful. 

Wight kidnapping is a good example of this. They needed to not only live through the event against absurd odds, but also capture the eight, and then convince Cersei to help. 

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9 hours ago, RhaenysBee said:

Nobody? I don’t see no smart people around. 

Careful not to make Qyburn mad. He is the greatest, most interesting, (most smart), most important person of all time.

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1 minute ago, Maester Vargo said:

 

Careful not to make Qyburn mad. He is the greatest, most interesting, (most smart), most important person of all time.

I thought that was Cersei. Or Arya. Or Sansa. 

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Posted (edited)

Littlefinger was cunning, but he made one gamble after another until he finally lost. He could have died a dozen times: If Pycelle had not helped kill Jon Arryn and had revealed the poisoning instead; if mad Lysa Tully had made a mistake and revealed the plot; if Varys had revealed the plot to the right ear (he didn't do it because Varys was planning to start a war all along), if Ned and the Lannisters had heard from Tyrion the truth about the dagger instead of starting a war; if Tyrion had convinced his father that Littlefinger was conspiring to start a war; if Jamie had listened about the dagger while still in KL; if Varys had discovered and revealed his plot to take Sansa away (which would in turn had involved him with Joffrey's murder...).

In the TV series he even teased and made veiled threats against Cersei, and he almost gets his throat cut for it...

Littlefinger won gamble after gamble, and half the time he didn't even follow his own advice of "keeping your hands clean"; he left tracks that weren't impossible to follow (the dagger lie being the most obvious and dangerous one...). He won so many times in a row that he got cocky and took odds too unfavourable... and he got killed for it...

So Littlefinger was cunning, but not wise.

Qyburn has done very well for himself with what he has. Cersei was his best (and in fact, his only) option, an he is making the best of it. Cersei may lose, but you can be sure Qyburn has already secured an escape route, a fat bag of gold and a couple zombie bodyguards to bug out to the Free Cities when everything starts to burn... Of course, narrative logic demands that he fails and dies, but that won't be because of lack of brains...

I don't think Sansa is smart. She is a decent administrator and she has learned how to use her looks and lineage to attract loyalty, but she isn't really cunning or intelligent. Killing Littlefinger wasn't cunning, it was Littlefinger's own mistake (what was Sansa supposed to do once she learned about Petyr trying to have Arya kill her? The only logical choices were to either have Arya murder him in secret, or denounce and have him executed in public...).

Also, I don't think Sansa is handling well either Daenerys or her relationship with Jon... She has been confrontative when the wisest thing to do was to feign friendship and to wait until she is away...

Tyrion... It is okay that he advises restraint, but his plans aren't sound... Dividing your forces and sending half of them to the other side of the continent when KL is right in front of you?, sending half of them to Casterly Rock, which doesn't even have gold anymore? sending Jon to bring a Wight? If they had attacked at once upon arriving to Westeros they could have laid an effective siege with all of Dany's massive army, and have burnt Euron's fleet with Dany's dragons. Olenna and Ellaria would have joined her, and she could have forced Jon to bend the knee in exchange for her help...

Tyrion's plans' primary goal is to prevent Dany from killing Cersei and Jamie.

Edited by Ser Lepus

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2 hours ago, Ser Lepus said:

I don't think Sansa is smart. She is a decent administrator and she has learned how to use her looks and lineage to attract loyalty, but she isn't really cunning or intelligent. Killing Littlefinger wasn't cunning, it was Littlefinger's own mistake (what was Sansa supposed to do once she learned about Petyr trying to have Arya kill her? The only logical choices were to either have Arya murder him in secret, or denounce and have him executed in public...).

 

Also, I don't think Sansa is handling well either Daenerys or her relationship with Jon... She has been confrontative when the wisest thing to do was to feign friendship and to wait until she is away...

Agreed on all this. 

Sansa’s niche as a “player” feels wholly unearned to me. It seems like the plot demands she be, when nothing she’s done to this point indicates that she is. Her squabbles with Dany look like middle school drama to me. She continues to undermine Jon by questioning him publicly, knowing full well he won’t do anything about it because she’s family. Jon can be a bit of a gentle dumbass but it still doesn’t make her smart. Everything about it feels juvenile to me.

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On 5/9/2019 at 12:24 PM, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Lyanna is a moron. She ran away with a married Prince. They got "married" and names their son Aegon when he already has son named Aegon. 

Heh...."Starks.  Quick hearts. Slow minds".  - P. Baelish

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On 5/9/2019 at 7:34 AM, keira_targaryen said:

I love Jon Snow but show Jon is the dumbest person alive. It hurts my soul. 

Jon was always just a good looking shampoo model - a real bimbo of a man with a heart of gold.

 

Agree Qyburn is OP in the smarts department compared to everyone else now.

Pod isn't too bad, a bit of a quite achiever. Learnt how to fight in time for the long night. And smart enough to get whores for free - he'll be saving all his squire/soldier pay for a nice retirement, I guess.

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On 5/8/2019 at 6:04 PM, keira_targaryen said:

I love Jon Snow but show Jon is the dumbest person alive. It hurts my soul. 

They've made show Jon a parody of book Jon. I agree, it's soul crushing. 

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2 minutes ago, TNTW said:

They've made show Jon a parody of book Jon. I agree, it's soul crushing. 

I do not recall the many show references to his looks or height in the books. Though his eyes are a tad brown in the show for a Stark...

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tormound.

He headed north to live his life now that the WW are gone rather then step into the mess that is the seven kingdoms. He may be crude and not have a great education but he seems like the smartest person recently. He knows what he can do and what he can't and doesn't pretend otherwise. The fact that someone with no education and such is smarter then everyone else is...horrible

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, nyser1 said:

I do not recall the many show references to his looks or height in the books. Though his eyes are a tad brown in the show for a Stark...

You're right. They describe him, but he's not anything special looks wise. It's his honesty, honor and loyalty that make him endearing. And he learns quickly from his mistakes. Show Jon is a fool too often. Eye candy, which I'm ok with lol. But I wanted more than that.

Edited by TNTW
Typo

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Just now, TNTW said:

You're right. They describe him, but he's not anything special looks wise. It's his honesty, honor and loyalty that make him endearing. And he learns quickly from his mistakes. Show Jon is a cool too often. Eye candy, which I'm ok with lol. But I wanted more than that.

In the books he doesn't have the "king arthur" saint thing going on like in the show. In the books he is a little  more ruthless and more "real". In the show is made to be the most honorable man ever.

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