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Lady Dayne

Tyrion: No Longer the Smartest Guy in the Room

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On 5/9/2019 at 8:32 AM, Joey Crows said:

Agreed. GRRM's writing made Tyrion a great character and Peter Dinklage's acting brought him to life in new ways. But somewhere along the way the show runners decided that he was great because he was witty, which while true, was a disservice to the other reason his was great, his intelligence. So they've neglected to maintain Tyrion's full character to focus on his likability.

Exactly, intelligence wise D&D have totally removed that element with the poor decisions he's displayed in recent times but the forced awkward jokes are still there because it's a lot easier. As he's a popular character they took a 'very low risk' approach (if you can call it that) where he does the bare minimum but ensures that he remains alive. There used to be a fine balance and I was expecting his impact to grow as he definitely has the intelligence for it, now it just seems like he's making up numbers.

On 5/9/2019 at 8:32 AM, Joey Crows said:

I'm assuming they would've written him differently had the show followed his arc from slavery to the Second Sons as in the book. He's definitely still brilliant in the books up to this point...

I'm sure that what GRRM expressed to the D&D regardless of the change in Tyrion's character wasn't for him to just be floating around. Regardless of how Tyrion is to end up GRRM wouldn't have written it in a way that makes him look pathetic.

D&D has limited the character of Tyrion by leading him astray with their vision. The only thing clear to see that it hasn't elevated his character only made him seem a lot more cowardice and doubtful.

 

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They are playing up the Tyrion's mistakes angles, but it's not as bad as they say.

His "mistake" negotiating with the masters of Yunkai didn't work out like he thought, but it cost them nothing and gained them some time of peace.  He gave them nothing (he concession to them was to leave them in peace for 7 years and they had no intention of attacking them for the time the treaty existed).  If it was a mistake, it was one with no cost.

 

He counseled Dany to NOT take her dragons north of the wall.  She refused him and lost a dragon.  Likely Dany would be a stronger position if she had listened to him there.

 

It wasn't Tyrion that forgot about Urine (watch Dumb and Dumber in the aftershow stuff).  Another huge loss, but not at his hands.

 

This last parley likely accomplished what they thought it would accomplish   Dany offered a peaceful surrender before she rains fire on King's Landing.  Again, it cost them nothing as they were waiting for the army to show up.   If Cersei just instantly attacks them (unlikely as that would be the end of team Dany), that was a military failure, blame Grey Worm or whoever is in charge of defending Dany.  The peace offering could have been made from a safe position. 

 

I hate how badly they've written Tyrion, but it's mostly just a plot device as to how bad of a hand he's been.  It's not what's played out in most cases (other things talked have been bad moves).

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10 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

I'm still waiting for the payoff regarding how Jorah's last (real) words to Daenerys essentially was "Tyrion is smart, have faith in him".

I hadn't considered this, and you may be on to something. At least, I hope so. I really hate the way the series has in effect neutered Tyrion (as opposed to the books). Maybe he'll reveal a secret access point into KL. IIRC he had ways of getting around the city undetected in the books, which came in handy for his brothel excursions.

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3 hours ago, legba11 said:

They are playing up the Tyrion's mistakes angles, but it's not as bad as they say.

His "mistake" negotiating with the masters of Yunkai didn't work out like he thought, but it cost them nothing and gained them some time of peace.  He gave them nothing (he concession to them was to leave them in peace for 7 years and they had no intention of attacking them for the time the treaty existed).  If it was a mistake, it was one with no cost.

 

He counseled Dany to NOT take her dragons north of the wall.  She refused him and lost a dragon.  Likely Dany would be a stronger position if she had listened to him there.

 

It wasn't Tyrion that forgot about Urine (watch Dumb and Dumber in the aftershow stuff).  Another huge loss, but not at his hands.

 

This last parley likely accomplished what they thought it would accomplish   Dany offered a peaceful surrender before she rains fire on King's Landing.  Again, it cost them nothing as they were waiting for the army to show up.   If Cersei just instantly attacks them (unlikely as that would be the end of team Dany), that was a military failure, blame Grey Worm or whoever is in charge of defending Dany.  The peace offering could have been made from a safe position. 

 

I hate how badly they've written Tyrion, but it's mostly just a plot device as to how bad of a hand he's been.  It's not what's played out in most cases (other things talked have been bad moves).

The only way they could convince me that Tyrion is actually smart at this point would be if they revealed he had been sabotaging Dany all along.  Every idea he has had has been disastrous.  He stopped Dany from burning the Iron Fleet before they had ICBMs.  He stopped her from bringing the Red Keep down on Cercei's head before it was occupied by small folk and the casualties would be minimal (instead Tyrion would like to starve them to death).  He fell for the trap at Casterly Rock, came up with the brain dead wight capture plan, was tricked by Cercei again before going North, and his only plan so far to end the conflict has been to beg Cercei to stop acting like Cercei.  I can't imagine someone I would rather have on my opponent's team than Tyrion.

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3 hours ago, legba11 said:

His "mistake" negotiating with the masters of Yunkai didn't work out like he thought, but it cost them nothing and gained them some time of peace.  He gave them nothing (he concession to them was to leave them in peace for 7 years and they had no intention of attacking them for the time the treaty existed).  If it was a mistake, it was one with no cost.

If you consider the loss/burning of her entire fleet of ships and the attack on the city of Meereen as nothing, then, yeah, no cost.

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4 hours ago, Bear42 said:

The only way they could convince me that Tyrion is actually smart at this point would be if they revealed he had been sabotaging Dany all along.  Every idea he has had has been disastrous.  He stopped Dany from burning the Iron Fleet before they had ICBMs.  He stopped her from bringing the Red Keep down on Cercei's head before it was occupied by small folk and the casualties would be minimal (instead Tyrion would like to starve them to death).  He fell for the trap at Casterly Rock, came up with the brain dead wight capture plan, was tricked by Cercei again before going North, and his only plan so far to end the conflict has been to beg Cercei to stop acting like Cercei.  I can't imagine someone I would rather have on my opponent's team than Tyrion.

When did he stop her from burning the fleet?  I don't remember that ever being discussed. It would have been a good idea, something we talked about last season, but I don't remember him shooting down the idea. 

The not going Rain of Fire is arguable as it's not about tactics but doing what is right for the people she is going to be ruling soon (in their minds).  I've never understood why people thinking laying siege is easier on the common folks than a shock and awe attack, but it's a belief a lot of people have. 

Believing Cersei's pregnant promise was insanely stupid and I think I melted down on the rant and rave thread that Ep for how stupid it made Tyrion, no argument there. 

The capture a wight plan was a group decision and the disaster result of it, is 100% on Dany.  Tyrion told her directly to not go get them and she did and gave the NK a dragon.  He was being a perfect hand there.  She just ignored him.

 

4 hours ago, Lady Dayne said:

If you consider the loss/burning of her entire fleet of ships and the attack on the city of Meereen as nothing, then, yeah, no cost.

How did Tyrion's plan cause the attack on the city?  His agreement on them was they won't bug them for seven year for peace on the streets of Mereen.  They got a brief peace then Yunkai attacked. Mereen had no intention in that time period of attacking Mereen so he gave them nothing and won a short time of peace.  That is a good deal even if it didn't last long.  Whoever (Grey Worm?) was in charge of the military was at fault for not properly defending Mereen's harbor.  It's not like they sent the military away on another mission fooled by the brief peace treaty (the groups looking for Dany were already long gone.)

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On 5/9/2019 at 2:03 AM, MinscS2 said:

There's only one smart person alive in Westeros currently: Qyburn.

That man can do anything from curing badly infected wounds, to necromancy to redefining ground- and naval-warfare forever. 

Hear, hear!  :agree:

And he runs a spy network in his spare time!

 

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On 5/9/2019 at 9:50 AM, House Rootbreaker said:

The two most unbelivable blunders for Tyrion are getting played by Cersei's "pregnancy" twice!  First he thought she gave a shit and would send her armies north.  Second, he thought she would give a shit and surrender Kings Landing to Daenerys.  Just those two decisions alone make absolutely no sense for Tyrion's character. He literally got played both times by the person he knows best.

The second blunder was not a blunder.  Tyrion made a 'hail mary' attempt to avoid a slaughterhouse.  He didn't think that she would surrender, but he had to try.

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On 5/9/2019 at 11:41 PM, MinscS2 said:

I'm still waiting for the payoff regarding how Jorah's last (real) words to Daenerys essentially was "Tyrion is smart, have faith in him".

Maybe I'm overthinking it and that scene wasn't about setting up Tyrion to make some really smart move before the show is over, so much as it was about Jorah himself, finally coming to terms with who he, and his relation with Daenerys.

I am with you, here.  I am still waiting for this payoff.

Just because Tyrion made mistakes does not mean that is is dumb or not intelligent.  Show me someone who makes no mistakes, and I'll show you someone who is not doing their job.

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20 minutes ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

The second blunder was not a blunder.  Tyrion made a 'hail mary' attempt to avoid a slaughterhouse.  He didn't think that she would surrender, but he had to try.

Yes. They even discuss it before he does it - they know Cersei won’t surrender and the whole thing is pointless, but at least they can honestly say they gave her the chance to avoid bloodshed. 

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I am really starting to believe Tyrion has been giving this bad advice for the last 2 seasons because he has been protecting Cersei:

It can't be argued away that his hated sister Cersei continues to benefit from Tyrion's bad advice to Dany.

One or two pieces of bad advice can happen. But a continous stream of bad advice after bad advice? From someone as bright as Tyrion?

Now I just realized the same thing happens in the books actually!

- Whose advice is it that split the pro-Targaryen camp in two factions in the book by sending off Young Griff on his premature invasion? Tyrion's.

- Who benefits from the Targ armies being split in two, offering the possibility of defeat in detail? Cersei.

Now Tyrion's influencing Young Griff is much more circumspect and logical in the books than his obviously extremely bad advice to Dany here in the show. But it's effect is exactly the same. I don't think that's coincidence.

I think what we have been experiencing throughout season 7 and now in season 8 is a very bad adaptation of the Aegon plotline from the books. An adaptation ruined by the enormous cuts in material which opens up these gaps that make everything feel forced and unbelievable. But the basic point remains: Tyrion is helping Cersei by doing his level best to split the Targ forces.

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On 5/10/2019 at 6:41 AM, MinscS2 said:

I'm still waiting for the payoff regarding how Jorah's last (real) words to Daenerys essentially was "Tyrion is smart, have faith in him".

Maybe I'm overthinking it and that scene wasn't about setting up Tyrion to make some really smart move before the show is over, so much as it was about Jorah himself, finally coming to terms with who he, and his relation with Daenerys.

Way to make Tyrion look smarter is him telling Dany about Varys.

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Book Tyrion post-patricide is a completely different character than show Tyrion.  In the books he is never sober, and spiraling in despression.  In the show we only saw a glance of that and then he snaps out of it. 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/9/2019 at 3:50 PM, House Rootbreaker said:

Second, he thought she would give a shit and surrender Kings Landing to Daenerys.  Just those two decisions alone make absolutely no sense for Tyrion's character. He literally got played both times by the person he knows best.

Unless he has an agenda of his own we do not know about. The speech outside KL's walls makes me wonder: "WTF are you doing? Whom are you protecting?" Answer: The Lannisters. Because if, as Tyrion probably fears, Deaneries goes drakaris, not only the city but all those houses who don't support Cersei (and neither Dany) will find a cause to run to Cersei's aid (or the Lannisters'). This is pure Tywin. It looks like he's suggesting Cersei "Do not be the monster. Let her be the monster, let her burn the city down. She'll have someone to stab her back. Either way, we'll have a Lannister on the winning side". 

I have been wondering whether Tyrion's regression is part of the plot, like: He never ever intended to support Dany, quite the opposite, he has always supported the Lannisters' best interests and piece after piece weakened Dany's army and position in Westeros (to get Castelry Rock, probably) or D&D are clearly unable to develop Tyrion.

BUT,

as others pointed out, his decay started after Blackwater, where his character was still written and developed by GRRM. So, what if he's a Lannister's infiltrate in Dany's army?

Edited by Ranger Kragin

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1 hour ago, Ranger Kragin said:

Unless he has an agenda of his own we do not know about. The speech outside KL's walls makes me wonder: "WTF are you doing? Who are you protecting?" Answer: The Lannisters. Because if, as Tyrion probably fears, Deaneries goes drakaris, not only the city but all those houses who doesn't support Cersei (and neither Dany) will find a cause to run to Cersei's aid (or the Lannisters'). This is pure Tywin. It looks like he's suggesting Cersei "Do not be the monster. Let her be the monster, let her burn the city down. She'll have someone to stab her back. Either way, we'll have a Lannister on the winning side". 

I have been wondering whether Tyrion's regression is part of the plot, like: He never ever intended to support Dany, quite the opposite, he has always supported the Lannisters' best interests and piece after piece weakened Dany's army and position in Westeros (to get Castelry Rock, probably) or D&D are clearly unable to develop Tyrion.

BUT,

as others pointed out, his decay started after Blackwater, where his character was still written and developed by GRRM. So, what if he's a Lannister's infiltrate in Dany's army?

This honestly makes the most sense. Everything he's done in the last 3 seasons can be interpreted as helping Cersei keep the throne.

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1 hour ago, WhatIsDeadMayNeverLive said:

This honestly makes the most sense. Everything he's done in the last 3 seasons can be interpreted as helping Cersei keep the throne.

So why would Cersei send a sell sword to kill him?

Unless there was a code in what Bronn said to them...

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Timm said:

So why would Cersei send a sell sword to kill him?

Unless there was a code in what Bronn said to them...

Why would Cersei send Bronn, of all people, to kill them, among all the cutthroats she certainly has at her command (or that she can buy)?

Don't you think it's a bit strange she sends a friend of both?

Edited by Ranger Kragin

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Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

Quaiths warning in the books has foreshadowed Tyrion’s betrayal. Since Martin said major plots stay the same, I expect Tyrion to betray her. 

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6 minutes ago, Ranger Kragin said:

Why would Cersei send Bronn, of all people, to kill them, among all the cutthroats she certainly has at her command (or that she can buy)?

Don't you think it's a bit strange she sends a friend of both?

I think we are looking at the same thing from two sides.

Why send an assassin? Why send Bronn?

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

Quaiths warning in the books has foreshadowed Tyrion’s betrayal. Since Martin said major plots stay the same, I expect Tyrion to betray her. 

But not in the show, if I remember correctly. There's only the vision of the the wall with Khal Drogo's tent right in front of it, foreshadowing her death by the wall... or so it was said. Although, I am almost certain Tyrion is trying to depose Dany in favor of Jon. Or Tyrion has gone mad.

What I do not know is: When did this happen? Has it always been so, or his change of heart is more recent?

Edited by Ranger Kragin

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