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It would make all the difference in the world...

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1 minute ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Yes. It's not a "delusion of grandeur" that she walked into the pyre with the dragon eggs, and the first dragons in centuries hatched in her arms under the eye of the new comet. Nor that she built herself and her ragged band of followers up into a mighty power. If anybody, anywhere has reason to believe she has a personal, special destiny, it's her.

After all that happens, people seriously think she should be humble and just accept the status quo?

The problem I see is that westerosi might just not want her as their queen. If most westerosi don t want her on the IT what do you think would happen?

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Because a great part of Dany's actions is excused by her lineage and she is indeed special. Mother of dragons? Unburnt?

Up to a point its justified from her rare lineage from the Old Valyria and up to a point this is that makes her unique in the show and in the eyes of people. This is what makes her unique to herself. 

She can't escape the fact that she is a Targ. And as Aemon said "A Targaryen all alone in the world is a terrible thing".  

All that describes Jon, too. Though obviously it took like seven extra years to realize his lineage. But he's special. He rose from the dead! 

Jon is subject to the strict scrutiny that Danny eludes on the show. Not for madness, but mostly for stupidity. Occasionally for cruelty. He didn't absolutely have to kill Olly or Janos Slynt. But that's a drop in the bucket compared to Danny.

Okay, he was elected Lord Commander and given a kingship for no reason. He keeps being promoted upon failure.But as this happens, other characters get to call him dumb. Aside from Sam, they don't look at him as some kind of Chosen One. 

Jon didn't have Old Valyria pushing him. He didn't expect or want to rule. But he was motivated by a singular vision as regards the Army of the Dead, and he set himself off on a mission to unite the realms of men against it. He managed to do this without looking crazy, and along the way people weren't always telling him how great and special he is like Danny. 

Edited by darmody

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34 minutes ago, darmody said:

That's what I meant about Aerys. He wasn't in a position to defend him. 

Sniffing out Cersei's plot against the king was not a military matter. But Danny would require him to navigate political, social, and waters. He was completely blindsided by the coup that replaced Lord Protector Ned with Queen Regent Cersei. Which a Kingsguard might want to know, considering it led to a number of people being slaughtered by the city guard in the presence of the king. 

As for Joffrey dismissing him, almost certainly being out of the loop and playing a part cast by Ned in the drama of Robert's dying wishes. Because Ned relied on him to be impartial, and Cersei wanted someone partial to Joffrey(namely, his father) in that role. 

You haven't given any example of something Barristan could've possibly known about let alone influenced. He was away fighting a battle when Tywin Lannister went to kingslanding and Aerys let him in. He couldn't have known that Tywin would betray the king or had any say in Aerys opening the gates. In regard to the plot to kill Robert, he wasn't hanging around in Cerseis bedchamber on the offchance he might hear her telling lancel lannister to spike Roberts drink. He didn't voluntarily play any part in Neds plan, all he did was read the kings last will and testament. Ser Barristan was good counsel and a capable commander. He was still alive in the books and commanding Danys forces in Meereen. It is perfectly reasonable to assume he would be a rational influence on Daenerys if he were still alive after the battle against the others.

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Just now, darmody said:

<snip>Even judging pragmatically, killing the masters was born out of sentiment, not law and order, and it had a negative effect on her rule considering the masters almost retook her city. <snip>

There is no possible way burning the Tarlys benefited her. Has a single house flipped to her side since then? <snip> 

Happy to address both of those.

By "killing the masters," I assume you're addressing the 63, or 163 or whatever it was. Yes, there was a reason for doing that, multiple good reasons in fact.

1: none of the masters were innocent - they were frickin' slave masters, each and every one.

2: proportionality - one death for each of the truly horrendous deaths they, as a group, had inflicted, murdering innocent children

3: She had no information about the actual perpetrators, so her choices were pretty much (a) do what she did, (b) do something time and far below proportional to the actual crime or (c) do nothing.

4: it sent a loud message: there's a new sheriff in town. It intimidated the slavers and, even more importantly, it emboldened the slaves and let them know in a very definitive way that, for the first time in their lives, somebody powerful was on their side.

I think that actually kind of worked and eased the transition of power.

As for the Tarlys, don't be silly. She offered to pardon Randyll if he bent the knee. He didn't. He's a rebel and a traitor who defied the queen to her face and lost. It's death for him, no two ways about it, and if the manner of his death somehow became a political factor, that would be a frickin' first in this place and time. I mean, when the comparison is the Lannisters? Puh-leez.

Neither of those is even the slightest hint of madness. Here in 2019 we're taken aback somewhat, but in Westeros, no. 

And on earth, historically? No. You should read a little about what " the noble Greeks, fathers of democracy" did to folks who lost battles.

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12 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Yes. It's not a "delusion of grandeur" that she walked into the pyre with the dragon eggs, and the first dragons in centuries hatched in her arms under the eye of the new comet. Nor that she built herself and her ragged band of followers up into a mighty power. If anybody, anywhere has reason to believe she has a personal, special destiny, it's her.

After all that happens, people seriously think she should be humble and just accept the status quo?

What about Jon? He never even told anyone he rose from the dead, as I recall. Doesn't go around bragging about killing White Walkers or having a pet direwolf. 

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Just now, Hodor's Dragon said:

ne of the masters were innocent - they were frickin' slave masters, each and every one.

Jorah was a slave trader. She didn't kill him. 

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1 hour ago, darmody said:

Yes. It would be good for companionship and security. But Barry was never a strategist or political player, was he? He couldn't do anything about Aerys' murder. He couldn't save Robert from Cersei. He did nothing to help Ned. He allowed himself to be pushed aside as soon as Joffrey was in power. 

Just common sense in Westeros to keep her safe I guess.  

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Just now, darmody said:

What about Jon? He never even told anyone he rose from the dead, as I recall. Doesn't go around bragging about killing White Walkers or having a pet direwolf. 

What does that have to do with anything? What about Harambe?

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Just now, darmody said:

Jorah was a slave trader. She didn't kill him. 

You're reaching. She didn't execute them because they were slave masters, but that was a factor. 

She didn't even know Jorah was a slave trader until deep into their relationship. And by the way, Jorah was not a lifelong slave master, he was a guy who sold a few criminals into slavery once and it was in exigent circumstances to boot, because he had gotten in over his head in debt and would probably have been killed or enslaved himself otherwise. A bad thing, no doubt, and it got him exiled, but then he turned around and started doing good.

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59 minutes ago, Aderyn said:

As a soldier and Lord Commander, he had mind for military strategy, though. But first and foremost he was a soldier and in GoT soldiers tend to have a certain mindset that usually makes them ill suited for politics at the same time. Selmy was occasionally even rather naive in his remarks, whereas Jorah had seen more of the world and would sometimes give Dany more realistic advice. For example, in season 4 soon after taking Meereen, Selmy urges her to sail to Westeros and claims that the old houses will flock for her support. Jorah notes that in reality any house or army will join whichever side has better chances of winning. 

Barristan would have been the missing link between Dany and her family heritage. He would have definitely been a valuable councelor in war matters and general stuff regarding Westeros and how things work there. But yeah, as stated by many people above, when the script demands that Dany and her team act like a bunch of ignorant idiots, no one can stop that.

^^^^^ THIS!  Amen, well said, YASSS!!!

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15 minutes ago, darmody said:

There is no possible way burning the Tarlys benefited her. Has a single house flipped to her side since then? Not counting Kneeling Jon, who was already in the bag. Also not counting the new Dornish prince, because Dorne was already on her side. 

She offered her dragons and hard acquired army to the North and both the reception and recognition she got was colder than the NK himself.

Do we really believe that besides Sam anyone cared she burned the Tarlys? Cersei blew the Sept and killed Olenna and the Tarlys sided with Cersei for their own benefit. And who cared from the Westeros for the Tarlys behavior? Nobody. 

Its only to Dany that matters to be different and good and not be a tyrant as the rest. Her political campaign though (Tyrions to be exact) was a disaster because she cared in a world that only recognizes power. Olenna was right. They don't need another sheep. They need a dragon. 

All who joined her did it for blood and fire. 

@John. Melisandre brought him back. And he never understood the reasons. But it was not his decision. It happened. 

 

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7 minutes ago, darksellsword said:

In regard to the plot to kill Robert, he wasn't hanging around in Cerseis bedchamber on the offchance he might hear her telling lancel lannister to spike Roberts drink. He didn't voluntarily play any part in Neds plan, all he did was read the kings last will and testament.

Little Finger knew. Varys knew. Even Ned knew. Selmy was out of the loop, and a king died Which isn't to say he was at fault, but Danny would want someone who could put themselves in the loop. 

As for the part he played, we know why Ned picked him to read it. Because he he was honorable and because he had no idea what was going on. Then he had a choice: secure his position by cowtowing to the Lannisters or plot against them. He just stood in the middle of the road. 

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2 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

She offered her dragons and hard acquired army to the North and both the reception and recognition she got was colder than the NK himself.

Do we really believe that besides Sam anyone cared she burned the Tarlys? Cersei blew the Sept and killed Olenna and the Tarlys sided with Cersei for their own benefit. And who cared from the Westeros for the Tarlys behavior? Nobody. 

Its only to Dany that matters to be different and good and not be a tyrant as the rest. Her political campaign though (Tyrions to be exact) was a disaster because she cared in a world that only recognizes power. Olenna was right. They don't need another sheep. They need a dragon. 

All who joined her did it for blood and fire. 

@John. Melisandre brought him back. And he never understood the reasons. But it was not his decision. It happened. 

 

It would've been a huge problem to have a lord openly say that she isn't his Queen infront of a large crowd, people have been beheaded for less

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12 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

What does that have to do with anything? What about Harambe?

Jon happens to be another character on the same show in circumstances that very often parallel Danny's. This being a discussion of how the show addresses Danny's faults, I'd say it's relevant. 

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1 minute ago, darmody said:

Little Finger knew. Varys knew. Even Ned knew. Selmy was out of the loop, and a king died Which isn't to say he was at fault, but Danny would want someone who could put themselves in the loop. 

As for the part he played, we know why Ned picked him to read it. Because he he was honorable and because he had no idea what was going on. Then he had a choice: secure his position by cowtowing to the Lannisters or plot against them. He just stood in the middle of the road. 

Ned knew because he had been investigating Jon Arynns death and it was directly related. Varys knew because he is the master of whispers. LittleFinger knew because he was the one behind it all. He couldn't back Ned because a kingsguards first duty is to the king, a piece of paper that has been torn up isn't a reason to turn on your king, especially as he hadn't been told there was a doubt as to Joffreys legitimacy. Ser Barristan is good counsel but he isn't a sleuth, that wouldn't make him useless or foolish.

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26 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Yes. It's not a "delusion of grandeur" that she walked into the pyre with the dragon eggs, and the first dragons in centuries hatched in her arms under the eye of the new comet. Nor that she built herself and her ragged band of followers up into a mighty power. If anybody, anywhere has reason to believe she has a personal, special destiny, it's her.

After all that happens, people seriously think she should be humble and just accept the status quo?

Yes exactly, from all people, even John himself, Dany had the most hard childhood. She never knew a home, she had a brother that beat her and intimidated, she was sold, had to live with a horde of savages and learn their ways to survive, and they tried to assassinate her (Robert) while still in exile.

From there on she created a fierce army, walked into the fire, created the dragons from stone, all from nothing. She has every reason to brag about herself and believe in her. That's how she remained alive.  

 

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5 minutes ago, darksellsword said:

It would've been a huge problem to have a lord openly say that she isn't his Queen infront of a large crowd, people have been beheaded for less

That crowd of people were just fighting a battle against her. I think they were aware of his position. 

Robert might have taken someone's head off for denying his kingship. I don't know. But at least he'd offer a trial. And anyway when he conquered Westeros he made deals with supporters of Aerys. He didn't march around demanding they call him king or die. 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, darmody said:

That crowd of people were just fighting a battle against her. I think they were aware of his position. 

Robert might have taken someone's head off for denying his kingship. I don't know. But at least he'd offer a trial. And anyway when he conquered Westeros he made deals with supporters of Aerys. He didn't march around demanding they call him king or die. 

Robert? No just assassinating pregnant ladies. Good man. 

Edited by Nightwish

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4 minutes ago, darksellsword said:

Ned knew because he had been investigating Jon Arynns death and it was directly related. Varys knew because he is the master of whispers. LittleFinger knew because he was the one behind it all. He couldn't back Ned because a kingsguards first duty is to the king, a piece of paper that has been torn up isn't a reason to turn on your king, especially as he hadn't been told there was a doubt as to Joffreys legitimacy. Ser Barristan is good counsel but he isn't a sleuth, that wouldn't make him useless or foolish.

In order to stand by his new king he had to betray his old one, however. Pretty sure Robert's command was lawful. And if he wanted to stand by Joffrey, it might have been smart to do so loudly and publicly right then. 

None of these examples in themselves mean Selmy wouldn't make a good advisor. They're f'rinstances. What Danny needs is Tyrion from season Two or a non-evil Tywin. 

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1 minute ago, Nightwish said:

Robert? No just assassinating a pregnant ladies. Good man. 

The morality of murdering Danny was addressed on the show. With great emphasis and detail. Remember every member of the council offering reasons to do and Ned standing fast against his friend? 

Assassination, by the way, is known not to be a legal matter. The Tarlys' execution had the veneer of lawfulness. At least Robert was honest about it. 

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