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dannyk65

It would make all the difference in the world...

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Posted (edited)

...if Danaerys had Barristan Selmy loyally by her side, advising and protecting her.  Being an ally and friend to prevent situations like the WF beerfest last week, where she was alone and awkward with Varys sneaking around in her shadow.

But the show killed him off for no actual reason in that alley-ambush other than a shocking death we didn't expect!

And to think, Ser Friendzone lasted by her side until last week...with Barristan as well it would be so much more legit.

ETA:  I think this theme of having nobody close to her nearby anymore means her demise is the likeliest outcome.

Edited by dannyk65

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Does anybody else feel like I do - that if Barry were alongside her I would be a million times more confident she will end up on the IT?

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7 minutes ago, dannyk65 said:

Does anybody else feel like I do - that if Barry were alongside her I would be a million times more confident she will end up on the IT?

No, I don't think Ser Barristan would make a difference. 

Daenerys is psychologically unstable and since season 1 has been on the verge of madness. Rage and fury are no good advisers and we will see how Daenerys reacts to Missandei's beheading. She's probably going to make her biggest mistake.

I liked the role of Barristan, though. Both the actor and the character. 

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Posted (edited)

I'm not convinced it would have made a difference had Barristan or Jorah been by her side at the banquet. She would still be facing the same primary issue - that Jon has a stronger claim to the IT. I am somewhat baffled by all the sudden questioning of Dany's mental state. She hasn't said or done anything that wasn't understandable under the circumstances. Yes, she asked Jon to keep quiet about his true identity. She's fought hard her whole life to win the IT, and Jon made it clear he doesn't want it. So how is that "mad?" She's more than once tried the kinder, gentler approach to defeating Cersei, and in return she's lost another dragon AND Missandei. She's angry, and rightfully so. But, anger doesn't equate to madness. This sudden questioning of her mental state seems so contrived. 

Edited by Lady Dayne

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3 minutes ago, Lady Dayne said:

She would still be facing the same primary issue - that Jon has a stronger claim to the IT.

Well, this is the primary issue for Daenerys in general, but for the concrete feast scene the primary issue is everyone loving, adoring, hailing Jon. Jon the resurrected. Jon the dragon rider. Jon the successful commander of the great War. Jon the wonderful boy. Jon the KING. They even say it.

Everyone wants Jon and no one of the Northerners there adore her or want her as queen. That's the primary issue of the scene.

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2 minutes ago, Lady Dayne said:

I'm not convinced it would have made a difference had Barristan or Jorah been by her side at the banquet. She would still be facing the same primary issue - that Jon has a stronger claim to the IT. I am somewhat baffled by all the sudden questioning of Dany's mental state. She hasn't said or done anything that wasn't understandable under the circumstances. Yes, she asked Jon to keep quiet about his true identity. She's fought hard her whole life to win the IT, and Jon made it clear he doesn't want it. So how is that "mad?" She's more than once tried the kinder, gentler approach to defeating Cersei, and in return she's lost another dragon AND Missandei. She angry, and rightfully so. But, anger doesn't equate to madness. This sudden questioning of her mental state seems so contrived. 

Yeah, totally.  And she's flanked by Jon who turns his back on her for bro-time power drinking and Varys who silently tiptoes through the shadows following her much more like the Spider and not a trusted advisor.  

She was much more poised and confident having Missy/Jorah/Barry nearby than she is now.   

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11 minutes ago, Lady Dayne said:

I'm not convinced it would have made a difference had Barristan or Jorah been by her side at the banquet. She would still be facing the same primary issue - that Jon has a stronger claim to the IT. I am somewhat baffled by all the sudden questioning of Dany's mental state. She hasn't said or done anything that wasn't understandable under the circumstances. Yes, she asked Jon to keep quiet about his true identity. She's fought hard her whole life to win the IT, and Jon made it clear he doesn't want it. So how is that "mad?" She's more than once tried the kinder, gentler approach to defeating Cersei, and in return she's lost another dragon AND Missandei. She angry, and rightfully so. But, anger doesn't equate to madness. This sudden questioning of her mental state seems so contrived. 

I totally agree with this. Dany has been very badly treated in the north, and the fault there lies 100% with Jon, in my opinion. Her reactions are mostly understandable, if not entirely smart. 

I don’t get all the interest in seeing dany go mad queen. 

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9 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Everyone wants Jon and no one of the Northerners there adore her or want her as queen. That's the primary issue of the scene.

I got that. She's not feeling the love. She's not feeling appreciated. She's not the center of the universe in the North, and she's feeling unloved and insecure. Those feelings are perfectly understandable. My point is, how does that equate to madness?

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At this point neither Barristan Selmy nor Jorah nor Drogo or any other character would have made any difference. The writers wanted Dany to go mad, so they bent her character to suit the story they wanted to tell and she could have been surrounded by loving followers and good counselors and she would have still gone mad if the writers had decided it for her.

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3 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

At this point neither Barristan Selmy nor Jorah nor Drogo or any other character would have made any difference. The writers wanted Dany to go mad, so they bent her character to suit the story they wanted to tell and she could have been surrounded by loving followers and good counselors and she would have still gone mad if the writers had decided it for her.

I agree, having other by her side to consult her, surely would make it more complex as a script, but despite all that since they want to make her a new Stannis, she is doomed. 

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, Lady Dayne said:

I got that. She's not feeling the love. She's not feeling appreciated. She's not the center of the universe in the North, and she's feeling unloved and insecure. Those feelings are perfectly understandable. My point is, how does that equate to madness?

It doesn't equate to madness at all. These feelings are understandable and believable. They are to be expected. I liked the scene very much.

Concerning madness, since season 1 everyone should have understood that Daenerys has a tendency to rage, fury and ruthlessness and her advisers Tyrion and Varys had to talk her off gross brutality and snap-reactions again and again. Tyrion even twice mentioned the Mad King in those situations back in Meeren, so there is absolutely no surprise to a certain madness below her surface.

Her personality is a mix of wanting the good, showing heart, but also of snapping into fury and brutal reactions. Her greed for power let us easily think of some sort of madness. 

After witnessing the beheading of Missandei, I expect her to snap and to grossly overreact. That is not unexpected and definitely not a new development of the last episodes but present from the very beginning of her arc and portrayed nicely.

Edited by Kajjo

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Presumably at least if Selmy was still alive the whole contingent wouldn't have 'forgotten' about Euron Greyjoy and  his navy.  Both Selmy and Mormont are important links for Dany to Westeros and how the Westerosi think and are likely to behave.  She doesn't really have much understanding of this, having grown up in Essos with only her brother to give her the background.

But, the plot will go where it will go.  I thought they killed Selmy off way too early, but then the show  has made many such mistakes.

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1 hour ago, Orphalesion said:

At this point neither Barristan Selmy nor Jorah nor Drogo or any other character would have made any difference. The writers wanted Dany to go mad, so they bent her character to suit the story they wanted to tell and she could have been surrounded by loving followers and good counselors and she would have still gone mad if the writers had decided it for her.

To me, with this writing, when they are pointing at something as hard as they are pointing at Danny going Mad Queen, its the least likely outcome.

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39 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Presumably at least if Selmy was still alive the whole contingent wouldn't have 'forgotten' about Euron Greyjoy and  his navy.  Both Selmy and Mormont are important links for Dany to Westeros and how the Westerosi think and are likely to behave.  She doesn't really have much understanding of this, having grown up in Essos with only her brother to give her the background.

But, the plot will go where it will go.  I thought they killed Selmy off way too early, but then the show  has made many such mistakes.

They sure as hell would have "forgotten" about Euron Greyjoy. It was in the script.
They didn't go "ooh Dany doesn't have Selmy and Ser Friendzone anymore, now she won't be as knowledgable about Westeorsi warfare" (none of which has a lot to do with Euron or giant ballistas btw)
They went "hey it would be shocking to the audience if we kill another dragon let's do it and then just say Daenerys forgot about Euron!"
And if Slemy had been there, then Selmy would have "forgotten" about Euron.

This is no longer a story were the plot and complications arise from the characters and their strengths or flaws, since season 5 it's a story where the characters are made to fit the script and where they gain and lose abilities and resources as said script demands.

Because really...if you want to look at this form an in-universe perspective, Daenerys not only still had Tyrion and Varys, who knew about Westeros, but she also should be able to retain simple information, such as "my enemy has a giant fleet" from one day to the next.

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2 hours ago, Kajjo said:

<snip>

Daenerys is psychologically unstable and since season 1 has been on the verge of madness. <snip>

This is a complete load. She has a temper. It's not that big and has never gotten out of control. She has done absolutely nothing, said absolutely nothing that indicates insanity. Nothing. As far as this show goes she is beyond doubt in the top 25% of characters for mental stability. Everything she does makes sense.

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16 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

This is a complete load. She has a temper. It's not that big and has never gotten out of control. She has done absolutely nothing, said absolutely nothing that indicates insanity. Nothing. As far as this show goes she is beyond doubt in the top 25% of characters for mental stability. Everything she does makes sense.

Yeah I really don't get the comparisons to the mad king.  Aerys II burned people alive for entertainment, heard voices in his head, believed he was an actual dragon, abused his wife, and was paranoid with suspicion.  Dany has been heavy handed in the way she treats her enemies at times but that's about it.  It's especially ridiculous coming from Varys who seems hellbent on making sure the seven kingdoms remain in perpetual warfare.

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Posted (edited)

It's actually ironic that the writers whilst attempting to hit the same end points that George will ultimately finish on , ignoring large swathes of storylines, characters being killed off prematurely etc, characters in the books not even existing on the show, these two clown writers will end up being burned the most from both book purists and the feminists (lets have more overpowered female characters) some of whom were in the cast . They were saying George is a genius in one breath and then tryin to write their characters for him in the next. They were trying to pander to those people . I entirely agree with everyone that feels like Daenerys is being tripped at the finish line because that is exactly what has happened. You don't build a character up from being "sold like a broodmare" to  hatching three magic dragons and gaining the respect and loyalty of six different power groups only to shoehorn a She's bonkers now narrative two episodes before the end. I know they added an ambiguous thread woven through her whole story that she is a bit hot headed but honestly there isn't one instance you can't at least give some justification as to why she did what she did. George told them many times that he thought the show should've had ten seasons with thirteen episodes per season. The guy wrote asoiaf as big as his imagination would allow it to be,.If he tells you how long the show should be, you listen. They should've included the dornish plot it would've been amazing if it had been done right. The casting was perfect it was the writing and dialogue that was attrocious. I would even go so far as to say they should have dedicated season four to Dorne in its entirety. It would've given them more time to place a few scenes of Daenerys in Meereen becoming more of a Tyrant and it would've been a perfect way to blend Oberyn into joffreys wedding and him standing as Tyrions champion. Quentyn Martell seeking Daenerys hand in marriage, Victarion Greyjoy etc. The huge changes D&D made to the story had drastic effects on the character development. It was all far too rushed. George described the end of asoiaf as bittersweet. D&D are probably expecting their ending to be received in the same way with all their this will subvert the fans expectations nonsense. It will infact be received much the same way as a flaming bag filled with dog turd on the viewers doorstep. I feel sorry for Jane Goldman who was pitching The longnight spinoff show. Who the hell would watch that now after what D&D did with the Nightking shite. Imagine everyone watching a show for ten years or so where the big bad can be undone with a dragonglass pinprick to the chest...oh wait that did happen

Edited by darksellsword

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1 minute ago, darksellsword said:

It's actually ironic that the writers whilst attempting to hit the same end points that George will ultimately finish on , ignoring large swathes of storylines, characters being killed off prematurely etc, characters in the books not even existing on the show, these two clown writers will end up being burned the most from both book purists and the feminists (lets have more overpowered female characters) some of whom were in the cast . They were saying George is a genius in one breath and then tryin to write their characters for him in the next. They were trying to pander to those people . I entirely agree with everyone that feels like Daenerys is being tripped at the finish line because that is exactly what has happened. You don't build a character up from being "sold like a broodmare" to  hatching three magic dragons and gaining the respect and loyalty of six different power groups only to shoehorn a She's bonkers now narrative two episodes before the end. I know they added an ambiguous thread woven through her whole story that she is a bit hot headed but honestly there isn't one instance you can't at least give some justification as to why she did what she did. George told them many times that he thought the show should've had ten seasons with thirteen episodes per season. The guy wrote asoiaf as big as his imagination would allow it to be,.If he tells you how long the show should be, you listen. They should've included the dornish plot it would've been amazing if it had been done right. The casting was perfect it was the writing and dialogue that was attrocious. I would even go so far as to say they should have dedicated season four to Dorne in its entirety. It would've given them more time to place a few scenes of Daenerys in Meereen becoming more of a Tyrant and it would've been a perfect way to blend Oberyn into joffreys wedding and him standing as Tyrions champion. Quentyn Martell seeking Daenerys hand in marriage, Victarion Greyjoy etc. The huge changes D&D made to the story had drastic effects on the character development. It was all far too rushed. George described the end of asoiaf as bittersweet. D&D are probably expecting their ending to be received in the same way with all their this will subvert the fans expectations nonsense. It will infact be received much the same way as a flaming bag filled with dog turd on the viewers doorstep. I feel sorry for Jane Goldman who was pitching The longnight spinoff show. Who the hell would watch that now after what D&D did with the Nightking shite. Imagine everyone watching a show for ten years or so where the big bad can be undone with a dragonglass pinprick to the chest...oh wait that did happen

:cheers:

I had kind of reconciled myself to probably never seeing the end of the written ASOIAF, but now that I see this crapwagon spinning off the rails I want the last books so, so, soooooo badly. Please, Mr. George, please sir, rescue us all sir, please.

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20 hours ago, dannyk65 said:

...if Danaerys had Barristan Selmy loyally by her side, advising and protecting her.  Being an ally and friend to prevent situations like the WF beerfest last week, where she was alone and awkward with Varys sneaking around in her shadow.

But the show killed him off for no actual reason in that alley-ambush other than a shocking death we didn't expect!

And to think, Ser Friendzone lasted by her side until last week...with Barristan as well it would be so much more legit

Yes. It would be good for companionship and security. But Barry was never a strategist or political player, was he? He couldn't do anything about Aerys' murder. He couldn't save Robert from Cersei. He did nothing to help Ned. He allowed himself to be pushed aside as soon as Joffrey was in power. 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Lady Dayne said:

I'm not convinced it would have made a difference had Barristan or Jorah been by her side at the banquet. She would still be facing the same primary issue - that Jon has a stronger claim to the IT. I am somewhat baffled by all the sudden questioning of Dany's mental state. She hasn't said or done anything that wasn't understandable under the circumstances. Yes, she asked Jon to keep quiet about his true identity. She's fought hard her whole life to win the IT, and Jon made it clear he doesn't want it. So how is that "mad?" She's more than once tried the kinder, gentler approach to defeating Cersei, and in return she's lost another dragon AND Missandei. She's angry, and rightfully so. But, anger doesn't equate to madness. This sudden questioning of her mental state seems so contrived. 

She was noticeably paranoid at that banquet. They showed us Varys looking concernedly at her. Then she made an unreasonable demand of Honest Jon. Then Varys outright questioned her sanity. Then she looked raged out when Miss Sandy died. 

None of which is actual proof she's lost her mind, of course. But the show is definitely leading us to wonder. 

Edited by darmody

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