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Aegon Targaryen and the IT

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Astrotherapist said:

The very nature of his work is subversive --of fantasy tropes, yet many fans expect those anyway, becoming attached to "the hero" character and favorable, winning outcomes, like Aejon taking the Iron Throne just as Tolkien's Aragorn took the throne of Gondor in the end.  

I think Jon on the Throne is not a happy outcome for Jon even if he is with Dany at the end.

Edited by King Jon Snow Stark

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35 minutes ago, Astrotherapist said:

The very nature of his work is subversive --of fantasy tropes, yet many fans expect those anyway, becoming attached to "the hero" character and favorable, winning outcomes, like Aejon taking the Iron Throne just as Tolkien's Aragorn took the throne of Gondor in the end.  

While true, you can only subverse tropes and expectations for so long before a storys ultimate conclusion and ending.

We got 2 out of 73 episodes left, which means that we got less than 3% of the total story left, yet the show (D&D) are still making unexpected and illogical left turns for the sake of shock and surprise. I very much doubt that GRRM will go down this path, if he ever finishes the books.

Sooner or later, the show ends and the bits and pieces needs to fall into place, otherwise the ending will feel completely off and disappointing.
At one point you need to start untying the knots, or you will be forced to cut the knots instead (or leave them hanging), and I'm afraid D&D missed the mark here. It's too late now, and this will result in a lot of cut (or still hanging) knots, and many disappointed fans. 

 

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25 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

I think Jon on the Throne is not a happy outcome for Jon even if he is with Dany at the end.

I agree. I think seems happy for fans, as he's alive and got the crown, but it's really bitter for him as all he ever wanted was to be a Stark. 

I also think GRRM has already subverted Jon and Dany, just not in the way people thought. I always thought Dany was playing the typical male fantasy lead, and Jon the female fantasy lead. So that is a subversion. The show muddied this by changing some key things that make this more clear in the books, like having Jon go do all sorts of flashy sword fights that he doesn't do in the books, but if you think of the nights watch as being sent off to be a septa, and him being hidden for his safety, and others protecting him all the time he is Snow White, even being kissed back to life. Heck he even has an aggressive person trying to steal his virginity repeatedly. Dany is the Prince in exile who fights against all odds to get home and kill the evil King that stole his throne. She uses men sexually, and enjoys conquest, but not the slow every day stuff (just like Robert) How is that not a form of subversion? 

The other trope I think GRRM is subverting, but that the show butchered and is going to get all sorts of flack for from their handling of the subject matter, is the benevolent female ruler comes in and cleans up the mess left by the war mongering men, and the realm is at peace under her gentle reign because shes a girl. GRRM making a male character that has all the female trope character traits that people believes makes them better rulers, and making some female aggressive war monger types to fight gender stereotypes is something GRRM would do no? Except GRRM has all sorts of gender bending, and has males and females doing typical things as well, making the whole thing more balanced. The show didn't seem to catch this theme and made a mess of it. Where as GRRM will have Jon ruling lead naturally from his anti war stance, to tie in with the other big theme of the novels. But, since the books are supposed to end the same, I think Jon will get the throne as part of this subversion, but that it won't feel like a subversion because D&D messed up, and decided to do dick jokes and give Kit flashy sword fights instead of hinting at a deeper theme.

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10 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

While true, you can only subverse tropes and expectations for so long before a storys ultimate conclusion and ending.
 

This, a million times this. No matter what it is still a story, and needs a satisfying ending of some sort. There is no way to do this and avoid all tropes as that would eliminate the elements of good story telling.

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4 minutes ago, Azarial said:

I agree. I think seems happy for fans, as he's alive and got the crown, but it's really bitter for him as all he ever wanted was to be a Stark. 

I also think GRRM has already subverted Jon and Dany, just not in the way people thought. I always thought Dany was playing the typical male fantasy lead, and Jon the female fantasy lead. So that is a subversion. The show muddied this by changing some key things that make this more clear in the books, like having Jon go do all sorts of flashy sword fights that he doesn't do in the books, but if you think of the nights watch as being sent off to be a septa, and him being hidden for his safety, and others protecting him all the time he is Snow White, even being kissed back to life. Heck he even has an aggressive person trying to steal his virginity repeatedly. Dany is the Prince in exile who fights against all odds to get home and kill the evil King that stole his throne. She uses men sexually, and enjoys conquest, but not the slow every day stuff (just like Robert) How is that not a form of subversion? 

The other trope I think GRRM is subverting, but that the show butchered and is going to get all sorts of flack for from their handling of the subject matter, is the benevolent female ruler comes in and cleans up the mess left by the war mongering men, and the realm is at peace under her gentle reign because shes a girl. GRRM making a male character that has all the female trope character traits that people believes makes them better rulers, and making some female aggressive war monger types to fight gender stereotypes is something GRRM would do no? Except GRRM has all sorts of gender bending, and has males and females doing typical things as well, making the whole thing more balanced. The show didn't seem to catch this theme and made a mess of it. Where as GRRM will have Jon ruling lead naturally from his anti war stance, to tie in with the other big theme of the novels. But, since the books are supposed to end the same, I think Jon will get the throne as part of this subversion, but that it won't feel like a subversion because D&D messed up, and decided to do dick jokes and give Kit flashy sword fights instead of hinting at a deeper theme.

I think I said this a few times but Jon should be her Consort. He can have other titles like Warden of the North or Lord Commander of whatever. She wants to be Queen and he supports her. I think that's a good ending. 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

I think I said this a few times but Jon should be her Consort. He can have other titles like Warden of the North or Lord Commander of whatever. She wants to be Queen and he supports her. I think that's a good ending. 

Yeah, I really thought it might go that way too until last episode. Now I worry that she may do something that results in innocents dying and that he won't be able to get past it :( But, maybe it's a red herring, and they just want to throw more false tension and unearned twists at us... I almost hope for that at this point.

Edit: The other thing I considered is he take the Kingship, only until the people get to know her, and respect her then steps aside. I could live with that.

Edited by Azarial

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6 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

While true, you can only subverse tropes and expectations for so long before a storys ultimate conclusion and ending.

We got 2 out of 73 episodes left, which means that we got less than 3% of the total story left, yet the show (D&D) are still making unexpected and illogical left turns for the sake of shock and surprise. I very much doubt that GRRM will go down this path, if he ever finishes the books.

Sooner or later, the show ends and the bits and pieces needs to fall into place, otherwise the ending will feel completely off and disappointing.
At one point you need to start untying the knots, or you will be forced to cut the knots instead (or leave them hanging), and I'm afraid D&D missed the mark here. It's too late now, and this will result in a lot of cut (or still hanging) knots, and many disappointed fans. 

 

You're making a vague rule here and I don't think it applies.  At what point does does the author (or showrunners) need to stop presenting twists and surprises? If the final 3% is not okay then what, 40% left?  The rest of the way a predictable run to a predictable finish?  I don't think it works that way.  

I'm not even going to defend D&D, I think they are sloppy, but I do believe the major events and character arcs are what Martin has in mind, and so does he.  He just commended the show for being extremely faithful.  

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2 minutes ago, Astrotherapist said:

You're making a vague rule here and I don't think it applies.  At what point does does the author (or showrunners) need to stop presenting twists and surprises? If the final 3% is not okay then what, 40% left?  The rest of the way a predictable run to a predictable finish?  I don't think it works that way.  

I'm not even going to defend D&D, I think they are sloppy, but I do believe the major events and character arcs are what Martin has in mind, and so does he.  He just commended the show for being extremely faithful.  

I agree that the main beats will be the same. But, the difference will be that when the twists happen in the books there will have been enough hints that it will feel right. I had Arya as an option for killing the NK in the books as there are hints, but they are very subtle as this is still a long way off. But the show just skimped on the hints and went for shock, over story.

At some point it needs to make narrative sense. It's not that twists are bad, or that there is a magic cut off, but they should be shocking in a way where you go, oh how'd I miss that. And to truly subvert and shock to the end would mean that there would be no ending. And that wouldn't be satisfying. 

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1 minute ago, Astrotherapist said:

You're making a vague rule here and I don't think it applies.  At what point does does the author (or showrunners) need to stop presenting twists and surprises? If the final 3% is not okay then what, 40% left?  The rest of the way a predictable run to a predictable finish?  I don't think it works that way.  

 

At the point where said twists no longer makes any sense, and/or when there's no time left to have the twists give some sort of worthwhile and satisfactory payoff. 

This point is not a set value and depends entirely on the author/writer. 
D&D have ~3% left of the story, and they are evidently not qualified or skilled enough to come up with twists this late and have them end in a satisfactory way that makes sense from the story's narrative as a whole. 

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7 minutes ago, dannyk65 said:

Hot Pie will sit the throne.  It is known.

Barring that he'd be a great Hand to Robin Arryn.  

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Just now, Astrotherapist said:

Barring that he'd be a great Hand to Robin Arryn.  

Now that we know what we know, it's piss poor that if all of the north/WF had simply fled to the Vale they would've been safe and eventually been in much better shape to steamroll KL.

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2 hours ago, Astrotherapist said:

Opening scene of SE1EP1: Rangers leave the tunnel from Castle Black and ride into the wilderness.

Final scene of SE8E6: Jon leaves the tunnel from Castle Black and rides into the wilderness. 

That's a nice ending. Even if it just were Tormunds group and not Jon personally. Closing the circle, showing some wilderness.

1 hour ago, Astrotherapist said:

I don't think Dan and Dave's ending is gonna be that different from my ending because of the conversations we did have. But they may be on certain secondary characters

Exactly, they repeated this promised and I still believe in it. The essential parts of main characters dying or surviving and who sits on the Iron Throne or whether it might be destroyed, will be the same in book and show.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Azarial said:

I agree that the main beats will be the same. But, the difference will be that when the twists happen in the books there will have been enough hints that it will feel right. I had Arya as an option for killing the NK in the books as there are hints, but they are very subtle as this is still a long way off. But the show just skimped on the hints and went for shock, over story.

At some point it needs to make narrative sense. It's not that twists are bad, or that there is a magic cut off, but they should be shocking in a way where you go, oh how'd I miss that. And to truly subvert and shock to the end would mean that there would be no ending. And that wouldn't be satisfying. 

I agree with most of this, except Arya.  Her knowledge (of Winterfell and the layout of the Godswood), training, skills (as an assassin) and the weapon was all set up in advance.  They showed that Valyrian Steel dagger in Sam's book of anti-White Walker solutions (on the the page before the dragonglass treasure map), and then Bran just simply gave it to her, so we knew then she'd likely stick it in one.  It wasn't that big of a surprise at all.  That the "Great War" ended this quickly after one battle (and a few ambushes) was though.  

Edited by Astrotherapist

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

At the point where said twists no longer makes any sense, and/or when there's no time left to have the twists give some sort of worthwhile and satisfactory payoff. 

This point is not a set value and depends entirely on the author/writer. 
D&D have ~3% left of the story, and they are evidently not qualified or skilled enough to come up with twists this late and have them end in a satisfactory way that makes sense from the story's narrative as a whole. 

Twists or not, they are bad at writing intelligent, connective tissue between major events/visual spectacle so I don't think it matters to quality at all.  Few people are going to be totally satisfied with it.  

On the story itself, Martin said the ending will be "bittersweet", and several actors have said exactly the same about the final script (a couple of them even said that many fans won't like it), so there it is.  Done well or not, no one should expect to be satisfied with this conclusion anyway.  

Edited by Astrotherapist

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20 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

That's a nice ending. Even if it just were Tormunds group and not Jon personally. Closing the circle, showing some wilderness.

 

A group mirroring the first one, even better idea! 

Jon, Tormund, and Ghost ride out from the tunnel. 

Credits.

 

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10 minutes ago, Astrotherapist said:

I agree with most of this, except Arya.  Her knowledge (of Winterfell and the layout of the Godswood), training, skills (as an assassin) and the weapon was all set up in advance.  They showed that Valyrian Steel dagger in Sam's book of anti-White Walker solutions (on the the page before the dragonglass treasure map), and then Bran just simply gave it to her, so we knew then she'd likely stick it in one.  It wasn't that big of a surprise at all.  That the "Great War" ended this quickly after one battle (and a few ambushes) was though.  

Yeah, just the links to her using it that way were so weak in comparison to the red herring that most people seem to believe it's their own creation. Makes speculating the end difficult when their foreshadowing is very inconsistent. Right now it looks like Jon for the win, on Sunday they could give us a curve ball and have it be Arya steals Dany's face and rules in her stead, since they said she'd kill the queen, never return, could be a lady and wear pretty dresses so long as she took a face, and would kill anyone who would harm Jon. It's possible, but the narrative logic that would make this satisfying instead of just shocking would be lacking. That's what I have issue with when it comes to the show. 

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3 minutes ago, Astrotherapist said:

Jon, Tormund, and Ghost ride out from the tunnel. 

Credits.

I'd honestly like that for his arc and for the closing scene.

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23 minutes ago, Astrotherapist said:

Twists or not, they are bad at writing intelligent, connective tissue between major events/visual spectacle so I don't think it matters to quality at all.  Few people are going to be totally satisfied with it.  

On the story itself, Martin said the ending will be "bittersweet", and several actors have said exactly the same about the final script (a couple of them even said that many fans won't like it), so there it is.  Done well or not, no one should expect to be satisfied with this conclusion anyway.  

Martin said a "bittersweet ending like LoTR". The way D&D have set up this season, especially after episode 4. I'm not seeing  a bittersweet ending at all but a tragedy. If the leaks for episode 5 and 6 are anywhere near close, then it won't even be a tragedy but a darn sh* tshow.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Azarial said:

I also think GRRM has already subverted Jon and Dany, just not in the way people thought. I always thought Dany was playing the typical male fantasy lead, and Jon the female fantasy lead. So that is a subversion. The show muddied this by changing some key things that make this more clear in the books, like having Jon go do all sorts of flashy sword fights that he doesn't do in the books, but if you think of the nights watch as being sent off to be a septa, and him being hidden for his safety, and others protecting him all the time he is Snow White, even being kissed back to life. Heck he even has an aggressive person trying to steal his virginity repeatedly. Dany is the Prince in exile who fights against all odds to get home and kill the evil King that stole his throne. She uses men sexually, and enjoys conquest, but not the slow every day stuff (just like Robert) How is that not a form of subversion?

Me too. I totally agree.

In addition to Jon doing all sorts of flashy sword fights, I think the show also messed this up by changing the circumstances of Daenerys and Drogo's wedding night (frankly, it was a masterclass in erotica) and not letting Dany take a more aggressively active role in the sacking of Astapor and the fighting pits. In Astapor, GRRM has her beating the living hell out of Kraznys mo Nakloz with a whip while Drogon and the Unsullied kill the slavers; in the fighting pits, Daenerys not only leaps into action with a whip to rescue and subdue Drogon but she does so while nimbly dodging dragonfire. Then Dany rides off on Drogon bareback.

In other words, Dany is an action hero in the books. A female warrior king who leads from the front. Like trust me, Dany is going to wield a sword (or a Dothraki arakh) before the end of it.

Quote

The other trope I think GRRM is subverting, but that the show butchered and is going to get all sorts of flack for from their handling of the subject matter, is

the benevolent female ruler comes in and cleans up the mess left by the war mongering men, and the realm is at peace under her gentle reign because shes a girl. GRRM making a male character that has all the female trope character traits that people believes makes them better rulers, and making some female aggressive war monger types to fight gender stereotypes is something GRRM would do no? Except GRRM has all sorts of gender bending, and has males and females doing typical things as well, making the whole thing more balanced. The show didn't seem to catch this theme and made a mess of it. Where as GRRM will have Jon ruling lead naturally from his anti war stance, to tie in with the other big theme of the novels. But, since the books are supposed to end the same, I think Jon will get the throne as part of this subversion, but that it won't feel like a subversion because D&D messed up, and decided to do dick jokes and give Kit flashy sword fights instead of hinting at a deeper theme.

I'm beginning to doubt if D&D actually ever read the books in their entirety more than once.

25 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

Martin said a "bittersweet ending like LoTR". The way D&D have set up this season, especially after episode 4. I'm not seeing  a bittersweet ending at all but a tragedy. If the leaks for episode 5 and 6 are anywhere near close, then it won't even be a tragedy but a darn sh* tshow.

I'm still mad that they thought a pro-slavery "What if the Confederates won the Civil War" fanfic was ever a good idea. Especially in today's culture of ultra-sensitivities and racial, ethnic and class-based tensions, real or imagined.

If it ends the way I heard it might end, no wonder they want to disappear and stay off the Internet. If the rumors and associated predictions are true, I hope they are blacklisted and don't find work for another ten years.

But what's your distinction between bittersweet and tragic, @Daemon The Black Dragon

Bittersweet is Romeo and Juliet whereas tragic would be The One Who Flew Out of the Cuckoo's Nest....

Edited by Jabar of House Titan

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