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darmody

The Problem with a Mad Queen

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If the show went full Aerys with Danny in the sense of murdering innocents, I wouldn't mind. Because there has been build-up. However, if they do it in the sense of actual mental illness, no. There were plenty of opportunities to demonstrate she possesses Viserys-like defects. None were taken. 

I hope it's temporary rage that compels her toward unnecessary violence, if that's where the show is headed. Because that is always a danger with her. And you may compare her to her father in that limited sense. 

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We can question Jon's sanity, by the way, for attempting suicide by yelling an angry dragon in the face. Also for general grumpiness. 

He has less Targaryen blood, since his mom was a Stark. Danny is the product of sibling incest, and therefore more at risk for inheritable disease. 

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1 hour ago, darmody said:

We can question Jon's sanity, by the way, for attempting suicide by yelling an angry dragon in the face. Also for general grumpiness. 

He has less Targaryen blood, since his mom was a Stark. Danny is the product of sibling incest, and therefore more at risk for inheritable disease. 

Not only the yelling at the dragon...

He was a complete idiot during battle of the bastards. He charged the army of Ramsey on his own and as a result, brings his own army in danger (with much more casualties as a result)

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Posted (edited)

She is not mentally ill, no. She will, until the end be a character whose reasons we understand even if the results are horrible.

Missandei mattered to her, as did Jorah, as did Rhaegal. She lost all three in a short time as well as a brief chance of happiness with Jon. She is isolated and without people she trusts. And, in spite of her lifelong goal of coming back to Westeros, she is not from there and does not identify with the people of Westeros. She doesn’t understand them or particularly like them and the feeling is returned. 

Conquest is the only thing left, and that is not a pretty thing. It can only be maintained with fear and tyranny.

Edited by Hippocras

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Posted (edited)

 

1 hour ago, darmody said:

We can question Jon's sanity, by the way, for attempting suicide by yelling an angry dragon in the face. Also for general grumpiness. 

He has less Targaryen blood, since his mom was a Stark. Danny is the product of sibling incest, and therefore more at risk for inheritable disease. 

We can question many character’s sanity. They don’t have to do mass murder to question if someone is well with his mind. 

Cersei for example blew all the Sept and there were innocents. Is she mad? Not really just mean and desperate. 

Jamie said it himself. He had no problem killing innocents to get to Cersei. That’s sick. 

Tyrion? Murdered his father but also his lover, moments before escaping, thus his action was extra bonus. No need for it. Revenge and jealousy. 

The Hound killed innocents and is still here safe and sound. 

Melissandre? Paranoid full of illusions, had to burn half people to serve the Lord. Nobody said she needed a restraining order. 

And the list goes on...

 

 

Edited by Nightwish

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The show will do whatever it desires, whether it makes sense or not,  but I tend to think that the Mad King/Queen is a tiresome story line.  We already have 1 in the show and to give us another only indicates a lack of imagination.  Dany has suffered 3 grievous losses and one she does not even know about yet (the doubts in the minds of Varys and Tyrion).  How many of us would perform well under those circumstances?  It is within Dany's character to attack and kill to get to the Iron Throne.  She may not be 'mad' but her behaviors will allow others to call her so. 

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Rather than going murderous mad, she might be going grief stricken mad. With the Queen out of commission, Varys might follow through and focus his attention on Jon.

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8 hours ago, lakin1013 said:

The show will do whatever it desires, whether it makes sense or not,  but I tend to think that the Mad King/Queen is a tiresome story line.  We already have 1 in the show and to give us another only indicates a lack of imagination.  Dany has suffered 3 grievous losses and one she does not even know about yet (the doubts in the minds of Varys and Tyrion).  How many of us would perform well under those circumstances?  It is within Dany's character to attack and kill to get to the Iron Throne.  She may not be 'mad' but her behaviors will allow others to call her so. 

Yes.  It is absolutely in her character to do this.  I'm sure the Dothraki Khals, Pyatt Pree, and 100+ Good Masters would agree.  She is not mad, just ruthless and a tad impulsive and hot-tempered.  And very much hurting and isolated right now.  Attacking and killing will allow others to call her mad, or believe her to be mad, just like her father was.

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I have said this in another thread, but I’ll repeat it because I’m way more invested in this topic than I should be. 

The issue with Mad Queen Daenerys is that the has not established a framework for what’s considered madness and what’s not. Based on this, 7 out of 10 game of thrones characters can conveniently be labeled “mad” on various grounds. So far, none of them have been. And so far, we have not seen anything to set Daenerys apart on which we could base her new-found madness. Everything she has done, everything that’s happened to her has happened to and was done by other characters as well, who we did not decide to label mad (as in mentally unhealthy). We just labeled them “mean” or “misunderstood” or “upset”. Or downright “righteous” and “brave” and “badass”.  Now you can’t ask me to celebrate Arya for one thing and consider Daenerys mad for the same thing. It just doesn’t work that way. 

I’m not against the idea of Mad Queen though I find it a thoroughly unsatisfying character arc for a protagonist. But if you are going to take this route you must build it up. There were thousands of opportunities to do so and give Daenerys characteristics that you set apart as madness. Make her hear voices, give her strange dreams about her mad father that she mistakes for reality (like her father), make her short tempered and hysterical (like Joffrey or Viserys), make her have delusional ways of looking at her “children” (like Lysa).

Just do something, because being pissed off and keeping one’s composure in a hall with Northern lords isn’t madness, it’s the definition of sanity and control. Being wounded and furious and taking it out on others when you lose a loved one isn’t madness, it’s the core of being human. Being inclined to use your special resources in a war when you have them and people encourage you to use them isn’t madness, it’s rational. Being ambitious to take a throne you were told is yours and willing to wage a war for it in a medieval context isn’t madness, it’s obvious and self-explanatory. 

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37 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

I have said this in another thread, but I’ll repeat it because I’m way more invested in this topic than I should be. 

The issue with Mad Queen Daenerys is that the has not established a framework for what’s considered madness and what’s not. Based on this, 7 out of 10 game of thrones characters can conveniently be labeled “mad” on various grounds. So far, none of them have been. And so far, we have not seen anything to set Daenerys apart on which we could base her new-found madness. Everything she has done, everything that’s happened to her has happened to and was done by other characters as well, who we did not decide to label mad (as in mentally unhealthy). We just labeled them “mean” or “misunderstood” or “upset”. Or downright “righteous” and “brave” and “badass”.  Now you can’t ask me to celebrate Arya for one thing and consider Daenerys mad for the same thing. It just doesn’t work that way. 

I’m not against the idea of Mad Queen though I find it a thoroughly unsatisfying character arc for a protagonist. But if you are going to take this route you must build it up. There were thousands of opportunities to do so and give Daenerys characteristics that you set apart as madness. Make her hear voices, give her strange dreams about her mad father that she mistakes for reality (like her father), make her short tempered and hysterical (like Joffrey or Viserys), make her have delusional ways of looking at her “children” (like Lysa).

Just do something, because being pissed off and keeping one’s composure in a hall with Northern lords isn’t madness, it’s the definition of sanity and control. Being wounded and furious and taking it out on others when you lose a loved one isn’t madness, it’s the core of being human. Being inclined to use your special resources in a war when you have them and people encourage you to use them isn’t madness, it’s rational. Being ambitious to take a throne you were told is yours and willing to wage a war for it in a medieval context isn’t madness, it’s obvious and self-explanatory. 

Well they can say “Dany forgot to go mad, but there we fixed it in the last episodes” Lol 

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Just now, Nightwish said:

Well they can say “Dany forgot to go mad, but there we fixed it in the last episodes” Lol 

Yeah and I think the trigger was that she ordered an herbal tea but Starbucks gave her a latte? 

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2 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

Yeah and I think the trigger was that she ordered an herbal tea but Starbucks gave her a latte? 

Hahaha, that was really good, Lol :lmao:

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On 5/9/2019 at 6:56 PM, Erkan12 said:

If she is mad, it's because of this;

 

:dunno:

Everytime I watch that damned part, I'm expecting him to burst laughing and cut the interview. 

I just DON'T see how you can say that with a straight face if it's not for troll or building up something. 

 

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Posted (edited)

Copying my rant from the E4 Rant&Rave-thread earlier today, it fits here as well:

New rant incoming, this time about Daenerys' current path into darkness.
In 3....2....1.

I think ultimately, my issue with the path Daenerys currently on isn't so much the prospect of her dying in general, but how she dies. 

I've always wanted her to survive the story. Not necessarily end up on the IT, but at least survive. A part of me however has always believed that she won't survive, and ultimately, that's fine, as long as her death (like Jorah's) concludes her arc and long journey in a meaningful, satisfying way:

- She dies a hero, fighting the Night King, either by going out in a literal blaze of glory that ultimately allowed the forces of life to beat him back, or as Nissa Nissa, a necessary sacrifice in order to defeat him forever.
- She dies in childbirth (I've always hated the idea, but given what we're heading towards, this would've been so much better) after all the wars are concluded and won. Her legacy (and house) lives on in her newborn child, who will never meet his/her mother, but at least gets to live in the new better world she helped creating.
- She dies heroically while saving Jon, the "real heir", who will continue their legacy and house after she's gone.

Basically, these endings for her would result in her being a major part of building that new better world that so often has been mentioned. ("Together, we will leave this world a better place than we found it")
Ultimately however, she never gets to be a part of this new world herself. She ushered it in, died a hero's death, and will always be remembered in the songs and legends for it. Bittersweet and a satisfying conclusion to her story, as she had an impact on the story as a whole - she made a difference.

What we're currently seeing unfold however, is the polar opposite of this. 
She's not dying a hero, nor in childbirth, nor to save someone important, nor will she leave the world a better place than she found it. (Well, technically she will, but she won't get credited for it. Both characters and fans are already downplaying her role in the War for the Dawn.)

If her ultimate endgame is to turn into Viserys/Cersei 2.0 (really badly portrayed on the show, but ultimately not entirely unbelievable - if the story hadn't been so rushed and if it was better written - like it will be in the books presumably) and become the very thing she has spent her entire arc fighting, without really changing anything for the better, and instead just "being more of the same", then...what's the point of it to begin with?

What was the point of all of her suffering and pain, everything she's endured and fought for, if there's no proper conclusion after 8 seasons?
- What's the point of seeing her raped and suffer at the hands of Drogo, before ultimately succumbing to Stockholm's Syndrome? 
- What's the point of her being abused at the hands of her brother, if she's ultimately fated to become like him anyway?
- What's the point of her being immune to fire and birthing three dragons, if they are not important to the story?
- What's the point of her long, arduous journey in Essos, if it's all for naught in the end? 
- What's the point of her being acutely aware of her fathers and brothers Targaryen madness, if she's ultimately succumbing to it anyway?
- What's the point of her having a romance with Jon after they've already established that they would become allies and fight the NK together? 
- What's the point of all the hints, prophecies/visions and foreshadowing about her becoming pregnant (with Jon), when they evidently scrapped that storyline? 

She's one of the main characters in both the books and the show, but if we can ultimately remove everything related to her from the entire story, without there being any sort major change to the story, (and currently it looks that way), then really - what was the point?
- Slavery isn't entirely abolished among the (former?) Slave-Cities, so it will return given time, because Volantis is till a thing.
- The NK would still be alive, but also banished north of the wall (for all time?) because he would have no dragon to break it down with.
- Cersei (and Euron) would be dethroned due to being hated tyrants, given enough time anyway.
- The rest of the story would unfold more or less exactly the same, with the same characters doing the same things, because Daenerys had no impact on their stories due to only starting to affect Westeros in mid season 7. (Tyrion is the lone exception here and...well, we can all probably agree that he's been pretty pointless since S5 and onward anyway.)

Ultimately, the only major(ish) thing that will change if we remove her from the story, is that the Dothraki would still be around pillaging and looting, and the Unsullied would've been sold to someone else...yay?

If the moral of her massively long story ultimately boils down to "power corrupts" and/or "good conquerors doesn't equal good rulers", then that is hands down the lamest, most disappointing and underwhelming conclusion to any character I've ever come across in any piece of fiction ever...
Even Ned's, Robb's and Cat's (early) death's had more of a moral lesson to be taught, and bigger impacts to the show, given how their deaths accelerated the plot and led to a very noticeable cause-and-effect.

If Daenerys ends up dying a villain without there being any major payoff to her story arc, then quite frankly the re-watch value for GoT will have hit absolute zero for me. I wouldn't be able to re-watch the show, because every time one of her earlier scenes (specifically one in which she suffers) would start to play, I would start feeling depressed, knowing what it would ultimately conclude in anyway...

Rant over, thanks for reading. :commie:

Edited by MinscS2

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On 5/9/2019 at 5:59 AM, darmody said:

If the show went full Aerys with Danny in the sense of murdering innocents, I wouldn't mind. Because there has been build-up. However, if they do it in the sense of actual mental illness, no. There were plenty of opportunities to demonstrate she possesses Viserys-like defects. None were taken. 

I hope it's temporary rage that compels her toward unnecessary violence, if that's where the show is headed. Because that is always a danger with her. And you may compare her to her father in that limited sense. 

Yeah if she burns KL it should be in a state of rage, lusting for revenge and not because she's developed a mental illness and become like her father.

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"Mad" doesn't have to mean she goes totally Daffy Duck. Even if it's just a little toasting of The Red Keep the people of Westeros have not been watching her character development for 8 seasons, they don't give a damn about concluding her arc satisfactorily. Anti Targaryen propoganda has been normal for twenty years or so but her PR campaign has been either weak or appalling. In the same way Northerners are believed to turn into wolves and eat opponents she and her invading army of rapists will be remembered in Westeros for terror, fire and bloodshed. Nobody will care about sacrifices they never witnessed against threats they never believed in when it's all ashes and devastation in front of them.
You win or you die and she doesn't have enough people believing in her to win. Once she's gone she will be remembered for being foreign, destructive and tyrannical - a mad woman. 
 

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On 5/9/2019 at 11:49 AM, Hippocras said:

She is not mentally ill, no. She will, until the end be a character whose reasons we understand even if the results are horrible.

Missandei mattered to her, as did Jorah, as did Rhaegal. She lost all three in a short time as well as a brief chance of happiness with Jon. She is isolated and without people she trusts. And, in spite of her lifelong goal of coming back to Westeros, she is not from there and does not identify with the people of Westeros. She doesn’t understand them or particularly like them and the feeling is returned. 

Conquest is the only thing left, and that is not a pretty thing. It can only be maintained with fear and tyranny.

And so, she is like Viserys with the Dothraki.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, RhaenysBee said:

I have said this in another thread, but I’ll repeat it because I’m way more invested in this topic than I should be. 

The issue with Mad Queen Daenerys is that the has not established a framework for what’s considered madness and what’s not. Based on this, 7 out of 10 game of thrones characters can conveniently be labeled “mad” on various grounds. So far, none of them have been. And so far, we have not seen anything to set Daenerys apart on which we could base her new-found madness. Everything she has done, everything that’s happened to her has happened to and was done by other characters as well, who we did not decide to label mad (as in mentally unhealthy). We just labeled them “mean” or “misunderstood” or “upset”. Or downright “righteous” and “brave” and “badass”.  Now you can’t ask me to celebrate Arya for one thing and consider Daenerys mad for the same thing. It just doesn’t work that way. 

I’m not against the idea of Mad Queen though I find it a thoroughly unsatisfying character arc for a protagonist. But if you are going to take this route you must build it up. There were thousands of opportunities to do so and give Daenerys characteristics that you set apart as madness. Make her hear voices, give her strange dreams about her mad father that she mistakes for reality (like her father), make her short tempered and hysterical (like Joffrey or Viserys), make her have delusional ways of looking at her “children” (like Lysa).

Just do something, because being pissed off and keeping one’s composure in a hall with Northern lords isn’t madness, it’s the definition of sanity and control. Being wounded and furious and taking it out on others when you lose a loved one isn’t madness, it’s the core of being human. Being inclined to use your special resources in a war when you have them and people encourage you to use them isn’t madness, it’s rational. Being ambitious to take a throne you were told is yours and willing to wage a war for it in a medieval context isn’t madness, it’s obvious and self-explanatory. 

I agree, if they are going this route, which I think they are, they needed to start building it up from at the very least last season.  Dany having done rash things from the beginning doesn't make her 'mad' it makes her rash.  Dany having a harsh sense of justice doesn't make her mad, it makes her harsh, and oh yeah, Tywin and Roose want a word.  Also, Ramsay, who despite a reputation for hunting women and flaying prisoners, no one ever questions his sanity.

We needed to see her grappling with ?something? Dreams, hallucinations, depression, paranoia.  We needed to see this and begin to worry about her long ago.  Having everyone in the North unfairly hate and distrust her for no reason is terrible, and then Varys deciding on no evidence that she may be going crazy, is again, terrible writing.

I've not liked her as a character for a long time but she and her story deserve better than this last minute character assassination hack job.

Edited by Cas Stark

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I guess some of my many problems with them pushing Dany as a Mad queen is it feels super rushed, like it happened in one episode. Or the fact that Dany is showing regular emotions to the things that are happening to her and we're (along with the other characters in the show) suppose to believe she's crazy for feeling that way. Dany is far from my favorite character but the way they're butchering her character is just horrible. 

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