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The Problem with a Mad Queen

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42 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I agree, if they are going this route, which I think they are, they needed to start building it up from at the very least last season.  Dany having done rash things from the beginning doesn't make her 'mad' it makes her rash.  Dany having a harsh sense of justice doesn't make her mad, it makes her harsh, and oh yeah, Tywin and Roose want a word.  Also, Ramsay, who despite a reputation for hunting women and flaying prisoners, no one ever questions his sanity.

We needed to see her grappling with ?something? Dreams, hallucinations, depression, paranoia.  We needed to see this and begin to worry about her long ago.  Having everyone in the North unfairly hate and distrust her for no reason is terrible, and then Varys deciding on no evidence that she may be going crazy, is again, terrible writing.

I've not liked her as a character for a long time but she and her story deserve better than this last minute character assassination hack job.

I have been team Daenerys for the longest time even though her character arc was going in a direction I didn’t like and her storyline quickly became repetitive and boring in the books. I never wanted her to go mad, but I can accept this as a conclusion or message or the destination where her story is ultimately headed. IF. It is done right, which it isn’t. 

At this point the show tells me to consider her unstable and question her sanity, while it shows  me the exact opposite of that. Right now she is the most vulnerable character on the show, and she is at her most vulnerable self since episode 1 of season 1. All I feel is sympathy and love for her, in spite of the dumbass storyline she’s been leading due to the dumbass writing of this dumbass show. I mean demonizing a character with no build-up and no ground is not an arc and it’s not a message, it’s just obscenely bad writing.

Even if I ignore the context and forget about the past 7 season with all the other characters and their actions, there are so many scenes in this very season, in the latest episode that reinforce daenerys’s humanity and composure. How can you possible tell me that someone who shows mercy (Gendry), rewards for strategic advantage (Gendry again, with the sidenote that in spite of D&D’s opinion, legitimizing Gendry wasn’t actually smart), gives appreciation (toasting Arya) and worries about legitimate risks (Sansa’s active resistance) while showing tolerance to those who dismiss and disrespect her in spite of her sacrifices for them (northerners) is not sane? How?! Oh god... 

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On 5/9/2019 at 11:56 AM, Erkan12 said:

If she is mad, it's because of this;

 

:dunno:

'A Game of Random Events That Contradict Themselves' by David Benioff and D.B. Weiss'

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3 minutes ago, LearnToBeNoOne said:

'A Game of Random Events That Contradict Themselves' by David Benioff and D.B. Weiss'

2014: The night is dark and full of terrors.
2019: The plot i dumb and full of errors.

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38 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

2014: The night is dark and full of terrors.
2019: The plot i dumb and full of errors.

Seriously. Let's see if they can compensate in any way.

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Posted (edited)

Why does everyone keep saying IF they go this route? The show has been going this route for many seasons. Hey, I am a book reader and I totally favor Danerys and barely watch the show. I only have seen the show when I am at a friends house and there is a binge going on. I go to school and don't have cable. But from what I have seen the show has been making Danaerys the antagonist for a long time, like back when she was still conquering Meereen. The show had her make Drogon burn and eat nobles who were submitting to her and then she forced Hizdar to marry her while he was on his knees. That is really messed up. 

I am sure that in the books her power and confidence will still grow. She won't be a mad queen. She will be THE queen because it is so obvious that she is the authors favorite and he would never write a story that would make the modern society angry with him. 

I just want to say that this scene really made me angry as a Danaerys fan.

 

Edited by Sea Dragon

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As far as I can tell the Targaryen Madness doesn't actually exist.  Aerys was fine until he was imprisoned at Duskendale, afterwards he started to grow increasingly paranoid and cruel (with the help of Varys' whispers).  But it wasn't a result of some taint in the blood, but going through something he was too weak to endure.  Viserys was definitely not mad just weak.  He was over stressed trying to reclaim his throne and was not cut out for Dothraki life.

Dany has a temper on her that can lead to her committing atrocities, but she is not mad.  It seems likely that she will burn down the Red Keep, which will lose her her remaining allies.  Personally I'm hoping that Jon stays by her side, but who can say. 

I don't see her going mad but that those around her will conclude that she has.  It would kind of fit with the theme that the history that gets told is full of comfortable lies.  This one being that the realm united against a foreign mad queen, instead of assassinating a young woman who only wanted to break the wheel of suffering.

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Can someone explain how the show isn't showing Danaerys as turning in to her father here? And I mean the way the show is doing it. Like I already said the show has been giving us the supposed mad queen look for a few seasons now. Ok, I kept looking in youtube for other scenes and totally forgot about this part where Danaerys not only burns nobles for the fun of it, she does so without proper trials and says they could be innocent or not, but then she gets turned-on by the burnings and that is when she touches Hizdar and decides to marry him. That was the next scene that I already posted. This is just lousy writing. She is THE queen.

 

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Also I noticed her hair in the recent episode was closer braided to how it looked in Meereen. That clip still shows it off. Isn't her hair braids on the show supposed to mean something. Sorry, I'm not sure where I heard that but it was something about how the characters are dressed. 

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Posted (edited)

But is she really? I would agree with the term ruthless as Dany has shown numerous times that she can be quite brutal if she thinks she needs to be. But none of these actions were really crazy/mad - that's why all this Mad Queen- theories really bother me. If Dany is the Mad Queen based on her actions - how is Cercei not also a Mad Queen,too?

 

Edited by Lady_Ghost

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3 minutes ago, Lady_Ghost said:

But is she really? I would agress with the term ruthless as Dany has shown numerous times that she can be quite brutal if she thinks she needs to be. But none of these actions were really crazy/mad - that's why all this Mad Queen- theories really bother me. If Dany is the Mad Queen based on her actions - how is Cercei not also a Mad Queen,too?

 

The word "mad" is just a generic term that readers use because that is what is used in the books. There are different levels of mad just like there are different levels of villains in the way Martin says he writes. Some are light gray and some are very dark black. Argueing details over a commonly used word is part of the problem. 

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Posted (edited)

Dany’s biggest problem is her absolute failure to grasp that she can’t rule in Westeros like she ruled in Essos. 

She ruled as a conqueror in Essos. Westerosi people will expect her to rule according to their laws. 

She’s sometimes cruel, and often immature and short-tempered, but none of that makes her mad. 

Edited by The_Spanish_Inquisition

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9 minutes ago, Sea Dragon said:

The word "mad" is just a generic term that readers use because that is what is used in the books. There are different levels of mad just like there are different levels of villains in the way Martin says he writes. Some are light gray and some are very dark black. Argueing details over a commonly used word is part of the problem. 

I do not understand as generic or commonly used term so I am having a difficult time with it. ;)  If someone is described as mad, he/she must have literally crossed the line to being completely unreasonable and/or mentally ill. Can't see this with Dany or Cercei and I find it very unfortunate in terms of character development for the very last episodes..

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32 minutes ago, Sea Dragon said:

Also I noticed her hair in the recent episode was closer braided to how it looked in Meereen. That clip still shows it off. Isn't her hair braids on the show supposed to mean something. Sorry, I'm not sure where I heard that but it was something about how the characters are dressed. 

Yes.

When the Dothraki win battles, they braid their hair. If they lose battles, they either cut their hair or take out their braid.

That's why when Viserys tried to mock Daenerys for trying to braid his hair, Daenerys wasn't insulted like he wanted her to be. Her as-a-matter-of-fact retort was "You haven't a right to a braid. You've won no battles."

So, the fact that Dany has taken out her braids means that she is acknowledging the fact that she has been losing. Badly.

I heard rumors of Dany cutting her hair. But then again I also heard rumors of Cersei's miscarriage and Dany's pregnancy...both of which appear to be dropped storylines.

23 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Dany’s biggest problem is her absolute failure to grasp that she can’t rule in Westeros like she ruled in Essos. 

She ruled as a conqueror in Essos. Westerosi people will expect her to rule according to their laws. 

She’s sometimes cruel, and often immature and short-tempered, but none of that makes her mad. 

This.

The man who Dany referred to in a conversation with Sansa as being true to his word is Drogo. Drogo never schemed or backstabbed or plotted. He just ruled from a position of raw power and authority. If you cross him or had a problem, he wasn't the type to bide his time and get leverage on you. He was the type to openly challenge you to a duel and kill her.

Dany is experiencing what we know call a culture shock.

I think Dany is impatient, immature and short-tempered (in other words, a typical Aries). But Daenerys is not cruel. She doesn't hold grudges and she is not so arrogant to the point where she can't take advice or admit she is wrong.

I don't see what the problem with Daenerys is.

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, Sea Dragon said:

Can someone explain how the show isn't showing Danaerys as turning in to her father here? And I mean the way the show is doing it. Like I already said the show has been giving us the supposed mad queen look for a few seasons now. Ok, I kept looking in youtube for other scenes and totally forgot about this part where Danaerys not only burns nobles for the fun of it, she does so without proper trials and says they could be innocent or not, but then she gets turned-on by the burnings and that is when she touches Hizdar and decides to marry him. That was the next scene that I already posted. This is just lousy writing. She is THE queen.

 

Wow...
You've gravely misinterpreted that scene. She most certainly doesn't burn the nobles because for "the fun of it", nor does she marry Hizdarh because she get's turned on by seeing people burn. 

1) She executes a random nobleman because Barristan, her confidant and adviser has just got butchered in the streets by the Sons of the Harpy. She's angry, sad and completely fed up with the Sons of the Harpy and the lack of progress her Unsullied and the Second Sons have with rooting them out. 
So she basically tries the "scare into submission"-approach. She executes one random noble and tells the rest that she doesn't care if they're innocent regarding supporting the Sons of the Harpy or not. They will get their shit together and make sure that whatever support they give the Sons stop, and that if they want to keep their heads they will help her root them out. 

2) The scene with Hizdahr is the complete opposite of what she just did, and is most certainly not because she's turned on. This scene is all about her realizing that what she just did to the nobles was a mistake. It was cruel and wrong and it's not who she is, and that the "scare into submission"-approach won't work.
So instead she marries a nobleman of Mereen in a peaceful attempt to try and make the mereneese like her, by essentially making her "one of them" and as such make the killings by the Sons of the Harpy stop. The only reason why she picks Hizdarh is because of convenience; he's right there, on his knee's, and he's the one nobleman in Mereen she's the most acquainted with. She does not like him however, and is most certainly not turned on by him. (She's still banging Daario at this point.) 
It's basically a political marriage which she does out of necessity and because it's the "right" thing to do - not because she wants to. 

Ultimately however, we learn that it doesn't help either, because the Sons return and even kill Hizdarh at a later point.
It was always a "damned if you do, damned if you don't"-scenario for her.

Edited by MinscS2

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3 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Yes.

When the Dothraki win battles, they braid their hair. If they lose battles, they either cut their hair or take out their braid.

That's why when Viserys tried to mock Daenerys for trying to braid his hair, Daenerys wasn't insulted like he wanted her to be. Her as-a-matter-of-fact retort was "You haven't a right to a braid. You've won no battles."

So, the fact that Dany has taken out her braids means that she is acknowledging the fact that she has been losing. Badly.

I heard rumors of Dany cutting her hair. But then again I also heard rumors of Cersei's miscarriage and Dany's pregnancy...both of which appear to be dropped storylines.

This.

The man who Dany referred to in a conversation with Sansa as being true to his word is Drogo. Drogo never schemed or backstabbed or plotted. He just ruled from a position of raw power and authority. If you cross him or had a problem, he wasn't the type to bide his time and get leverage on you. He was the type to openly challenge you to a duel and kill her.

Dany is experiencing what we know call a culture shock.

I think Dany is impatient, immature and short-tempered (in other words, a typical Aries). But Daenerys is not cruel. She doesn't hold grudges and she is not so arrogant to the point where she can't take advice or admit she is wrong.

I don't see what the problem with Daenerys is.

Well, burning the Tarlys was both cruel and stupid, given that they should have been taken prisoner and treated accordingly to westerosi law and precedent. 

Jon was right that to tell her that she runs the risk of being more of the same, considering her father’s reign and hobby of burning people alive is still well within living memory in Westeros.  

She does take advice, but rarely when it really counts. Tyrion told her not to burn the Tarlys. Jorah told her not to crucify the Good Masters. 

She needs to learn how to learn, in my opinion. 

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5 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Well, burning the Tarlys was both cruel and stupid, given that they should have been taken prisoner and treated accordingly to westerosi law and precedent.

Burning Randall was neither cruel nor stupid. He was a cunt and the world is better of without him.

Burning Rickon was however, and I've always been bothered by the stupidity of it all: Daenerys, Randall and Dickon all acted really dumb here: Daenerys had no reason to burn him willy-nilly, Dickon had no reason to willingly commit suicide like this (he still had a mother and sister who depends on him) and Randall could've saved Dickon instantly by either bending the knee or taking the black, but he simply lets his son walk into his death.
It all came across as contrived. 

I've always considered Rickons death nothing more than a plotdevice due to how nonsensical it is, and given how S8 is currently unfolding, it turns out I was right. 

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Just now, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Well, burning the Tarlys was both cruel and stupid, given that they should have been taken prisoner and treated accordingly to westerosi law and precedent. 

Jon was right that to tell her that she runs the risk of being more of the same, considering her father’s reign and hobby of burning people alive is still well within living memory in Westeros.  

She does take advice, but rarely when it really counts. Tyrion told her not to burn the Tarlys. Jorah told her not to crucify the Good Masters. 

She needs to learn how to learn, in my opinion. 

Burning Randyll Tarly is just another execution. It's just like beheading Janos Slynt.

Burning Dickon Tarly is regrettable and stupid. But not cruel. He made the choice to stand with his father with his irrational bout of treason. It's hard to see the cruelty in that when Cersei locks Septa Unella in a rape dungeon and Jaime Lannister gets a pass for threatening to put Edmure Tully's son on a catapult and sending him flying into the walls of Riverrun.

But why are you making it seem like listening to Tyrion has gotten Daenerys anywhere.

So what if he advised against burning the Tarlys? He advised that she not attack Euron Greyjoy's fleet when she had three healthy dragons and they had no supersonic missiles, I mean, ballistas. He's been advising her to postpone a direct attack on King's Landing for seasons...and yet, Cersei now has the city armed to the teeth.

 

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5 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Burning Randyll Tarly is just another execution. It's just like beheading Janos Slynt.

Burning Dickon Tarly is regrettable and stupid. But not cruel. He made the choice to stand with his father with his irrational bout of treason. It's hard to see the cruelty in that when Cersei locks Septa Unella in a rape dungeon and Jaime Lannister gets a pass for threatening to put Edmure Tully's son on a catapult and sending him flying into the walls of Riverrun.

But why are you making it seem like listening to Tyrion has gotten Daenerys anywhere.

So what if he advised against burning the Tarlys? He advised that she not attack Euron Greyjoy's fleet when she had three healthy dragons and they had no supersonic missiles, I mean, ballistas. He's been advising her to postpone a direct attack on King's Landing for seasons...and yet, Cersei now has the city armed to the teeth.

 

Westerosi precedent is that Randyll Tarly should have been taken prisoner, but regardless, burning him was essentially the worst thing Dany could have done for her reputation as “not like my daddy, I promise!” 

If she needed to execute him in the battlefield, she had many other, more palatable options. Like beheading, as Jon did. 

Tyrion advising her stupidly in 90% of her other engagements doesn’t mean he wasn’t right in this case, and I’ve never disagreed that he sucks lately. 

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2 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Burning Randall was neither cruel nor stupid. He was a cunt and the world is better of without him.

Burning Rickon was however, and I've always been bothered by the stupidity of it all: Daenerys, Randall and Dickon all acted really dumb here: Daenerys had no reason to burn him willy-nilly, Dickon had no reason to willingly commit suicide like this (he still had a mother and sister who depends on him) and Randall could've saved Dickon instantly by either bending the knee or taking the black, but he simply lets his son walk into his death.
It all came across as contrived. 

I've always considered Rickons death nothing more than a plotdevice due to how nonsensical it is, and given how S8 is currently unfolding, it turns out I was right. 

Oh but Randyll Tarly is the father of the year.

Geez, give me a break.

  • Catelyn Stark was willing to spend the rest of her life as a prisoner of Walder effing Frey to save Robb's life
  • Walder Frey completely spazzes out when all of his daughters are rejected by Robb Stark after Robb Stark had made a promise
  • Ned Stark also was willing to sacrifice his life for something wholly wrong just so Sansa could live, Arya could be found peaceably and the rest of his family wouldn't be dragged into a war he couldn't win
  • Daenerys repeatedly wished that she was the one who died instead of Rhaego
  • Tywin Lannister brought the Seven Kingdoms to its knees on behalf of those knuckleheaded ingrates he calls his children
  • Roose Bolton willfully acknowledged and respected his beast of a son and told him that he was proud of him
  • Even Cersei Lannister fought tooth and nail so that her kids would not be killed or spend the rest of their lives on the run for her mistake....

But Randyll Tarly allows his son to die with when it would have been very easy for his son to not die...and Daenerys is the cruel one.

Ha.

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13 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Burning Randall was neither cruel nor stupid. He was a cunt and the world is better of without him.

Burning Rickon was however, and I've always been bothered by the stupidity of it all: Daenerys, Randall and Dickon all acted really dumb here: Daenerys had no reason to burn him willy-nilly, Dickon had no reason to willingly commit suicide like this (he still had a mother and sister who depends on him) and Randall could've saved Dickon instantly by either bending the knee or taking the black, but he simply lets his son walk into his death.
It all came across as contrived. 

I've always considered Rickons death nothing more than a plotdevice due to how nonsensical it is, and given how S8 is currently unfolding, it turns out I was right. 

Dany needs the support of people in Westeros. She won’t get it by frying people. All that gets her is a reputation for being just like her daddy. 

Westeros has laws regarding enemies defeated on the battlefield, and prisoners. We know this because treatment of prisoners is a whole arc in Robb’s storyline. 

I get that we’re all mad about Randyll Tarly because he was an asshole to Sam, but being burned alive is still pretty godsdamned cruel. 

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