Should GRRM have cut the Qaarth story in ACOK?

[Tyrion1991]

Admittedly I think these only come to 6 chapters in an otherwise enormous book. However, do you think in hindsight GRRM should have cut this plot line of Dany being lost in the desert and seeking aid in Qarth? 

In the early books you are led to believe that Danys Essos storyline was only ever meant to be a simple tale of her getting an army and going to Westeros. When I read ACOK, I reasoned that Dany did still need the time to develop as a character before entering the big leagues; plus a harmless bit of filler as her Essos story was limited in scope didn’t hurt. However, the second GRRM wanted to go into the politics, set up a multi POV battle of Mereen and IMO build towards Dany conquering all of Essos; he really didn’t have the luxury of Qaarth.

If GRRM had cut Qaarth then he could have just went straight to Astapor instead. The House of the Undying could simply be in Mereen. So you could take the relevant bits out of ACOK without losing that much.

Its as if GRRM thought Dany was too far ahead in her arc during ACOK and slammed the breaks on; when now she’s massively behind the rest of the characters. So much so that we have poor Doran and Kevin asking themselves where Dany is when she won’t be coming for a very long time. Dany shouldn’t even be on Kevin’s radar and I always thought GRRM was being disingenuous when he did that. Thousands of miles away they shouldn’t care.

[Euron III Greyjoy]

Outside of the House of the Undying, the Qarth storyline didn't really interest me. 

[chrisdaw]

It will probably relate to Illyrio and how she rightly or wrongly sees through him with regards to Aegon. Qarth is an old has been clinging to and trying to recreate former glory. A hollow city built on the back of slavery and tolls - other people's work and endeavours.

Xaro taught her about how people will lust for the power of her dragons and come as false friends. This influences how she sees Quentyn. It may influence her opinion of Euron too, or more likely it should influence her opinion of Euorn but is a lesson she'll leave aside in her turn to fire and blood.

[Nevets]

The desert and Qarth are where Daenerys first cuts her teeth as a leader.  It is necessary experience before she goes for the big time in Slavers Bay.  Without Qarth and the desert, I doubt she would have had the experience and confidence to try and take Astapor and Meereen.

[Amris]

It couldn't have been cut since it culminates in the HotU. Which for me is one of the cornerstones of the series.

Also Quaithe is a cool character and I wouldn't want to miss her.

I don't know if it would have been possible to shorten the desert travelogue a bit. Maybe. However there needs to be some meat there about how she gets to the HotU in the first place. Can't just 'teleport' in and out with no real background. That would have felt weird.

And Nevets is right, that the hardships of the travel do necessary things for her character development.

So the answer to the question in the thread title is an emphatic 'NO'!

[Davjos]

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

The desert and Qarth are where Daenerys first cuts her teeth as a leader.  It is necessary experience before she goes for the big time in Slavers Bay.  Without Qarth and the desert, I doubt she would have had the experience and confidence to try and take Astapor and Meereen.

This^ Dany can’t go from khaleesi/desert to Astopor. 

[The Commentator]

14 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Admittedly I think these only come to 6 chapters in an otherwise enormous book. However, do you think in hindsight GRRM should have cut this plot line of Dany being lost in the desert and seeking aid in Qarth? 

In the early books you are led to believe that Danys Essos storyline was only ever meant to be a simple tale of her getting an army and going to Westeros. When I read ACOK, I reasoned that Dany did still need the time to develop as a character before entering the big leagues; plus a harmless bit of filler as her Essos story was limited in scope didn’t hurt. However, the second GRRM wanted to go into the politics, set up a multi POV battle of Mereen and IMO build towards Dany conquering all of Essos; he really didn’t have the luxury of Qaarth.

If GRRM had cut Qaarth then he could have just went straight to Astapor instead. The House of the Undying could simply be in Mereen. So you could take the relevant bits out of ACOK without losing that much.

Its as if GRRM thought Dany was too far ahead in her arc during ACOK and slammed the breaks on; when now she’s massively behind the rest of the characters. So much so that we have poor Doran and Kevin asking themselves where Dany is when she won’t be coming for a very long time. Dany shouldn’t even be on Kevin’s radar and I always thought GRRM was being disingenuous when he did that. Thousands of miles away they shouldn’t care.

No way.  Those are the best chapters in an otherwise mediocre volume.  If you want to cut chapters out from Clash, cut out Arya's chapters.  

11 hours ago, Nevets said:

The desert and Qarth are where Daenerys first cuts her teeth as a leader.  It is necessary experience before she goes for the big time in Slavers Bay.  Without Qarth and the desert, I doubt she would have had the experience and confidence to try and take Astapor and Meereen.

Agree with you Nevets.  Probably for the first time on these message boards. 

 

[Tyrion1991]

I agree that they’re good chapters. There’s some great character moments between Dany and Jorah in this book which I love. I certainly won’t say no to more stuff about Daenerys. But, not at the long term cost of meaning she has very little time in Westeros. Plus, the gap between books releases can’t be overstated. Functionally, Dany is in the same place she was since a novel published in 2001 18 years ago...

In fact as aside, it would not surprise me if the whole reason for a War in Slavers Bay is purely to give Dany more opportunities to be a Queen and a Conqueror before the series concludes. By the time you discount any stuff involving the Others; we aren’t going to have that much of Daenerys conquering the 7 Kingdoms.

However, if GRRM intended Dany to conquer Essos and have a large series of conflicts and storylines set there; Qaarth meant that it took too long to take the story in that direction. Before then, Dany gets the Dothraki pretty easily in book 1, then GRRM tries to bring the reader back down to Earth after she gets dragons and then in ASOS you’re led to think that the story is back on track until Dany chooses to stay in Meereen.

 

[Curled Finger]

It took a very long time for me to appreciate Dany's adventures and I understand disinterest in Qaarth, Astapor--all of it.   Dany's Qaarth chapters have since become something of a harbinger of all the trials and triumphs facing our dragon queen.  The warlocks and shade of the evening continue to appear even in TWOW, so there is something you need to pay attention to in Qaarth.   In retrospect Qaarth sets the table for Dany's entire conquest of the world.   I admit I'm not a prophecy lover, but nearly every one else in the fandom places a great deal of importance on the visions at the House of the Undying.  I wonder if Dany would have had the foresight to deal with the slavers in Astapor had she not encountered the decisive betrayals she overcame in Qaarth.   So no, OP, the Qaarth chapters should not have been cut.  

[BlackLightning]

On 5/9/2019 at 9:03 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

Admittedly I think these only come to 6 chapters in an otherwise enormous book. However, do you think in hindsight GRRM should have cut this plot line of Dany being lost in the desert and seeking aid in Qarth? 

In the early books you are led to believe that Danys Essos storyline was only ever meant to be a simple tale of her getting an army and going to Westeros. When I read ACOK, I reasoned that Dany did still need the time to develop as a character before entering the big leagues; plus a harmless bit of filler as her Essos story was limited in scope didn’t hurt. However, the second GRRM wanted to go into the politics, set up a multi POV battle of Mereen and IMO build towards Dany conquering all of Essos; he really didn’t have the luxury of Qaarth.

If GRRM had cut Qaarth then he could have just went straight to Astapor instead. The House of the Undying could simply be in Mereen. So you could take the relevant bits out of ACOK without losing that much.

Its as if GRRM thought Dany was too far ahead in her arc during ACOK and slammed the breaks on; when now she’s massively behind the rest of the characters. So much so that we have poor Doran and Kevin asking themselves where Dany is when she won’t be coming for a very long time. Dany shouldn’t even be on Kevin’s radar and I always thought GRRM was being disingenuous when he did that. Thousands of miles away they shouldn’t care.

So basically, the question you are asking is not "should GRRM should have cut the Qarth story arc out of Clash?"

The question that you're really asking is "why is Daenerys not moving as fast as I want her to?"

Because I'm getting the feeling that all of the stuff Daenerys experienced in Qarth could have been experienced in Meereen, Astapor or even Pentos and you still would be annoyed and vexed. The location doesn't matter. Daenerys could have been in Asshai (which would've been more important given how important Asshai already is in the series) and the same thing could have happened.

Daenerys Stormborn brought dragons back to the world. And these dragons are growing and proving themselves to be useful in war. That such a thing has not been seen since the days of the Dance of the Dragons. It's been what over a 150 years? Now, there is news that she and her dragons got into a fight with Qartheen warlocks and have undertaken a big anti-slavery campaign in Slaver's Bay.

Why wouldn't Kevan care? Kevan not caring would be idiotic.

On 5/10/2019 at 12:11 AM, Amris said:

It couldn't have been cut since it culminates in the HotU. Which for me is one of the cornerstones of the series.

Also Quaithe is a cool character and I wouldn't want to miss her.

I don't know if it would have been possible to shorten the desert travelogue a bit. Maybe. However there needs to be some meat there about how she gets to the HotU in the first place. Can't just 'teleport' in and out with no real background. That would have felt weird.

And Nevets is right, that the hardships of the travel do necessary things for her character development.

So the answer to the question in the thread title is an emphatic 'NO'!

Shorten the desert travelogue? It only took one chapter.

[sweetsunray]

No, he cannot take it out. She lived her life as a Dothraki Khaleesi, fully immersing herself into their culture and loving it. In Qarth she is introduced to luxury and wealth, treated like a princess, given money. She is not a beggar princess anymore. So, Dany gets re-cultured again, fit to look the part of a queen, instead of a Khaleesi. So, in aGoT, she felt the rush of feeling powerful. In aCoK, she felt truly pampered like a princess. But she increasingly feels frustration over the fact that she is in fact powerless in Qarth and that without power people can get to her dragons too quicly. She wants both power and be treated like royalty. The HotU is important because it does a few things for her: it crystallizes the idea in her head that she's "special", that she is "destined" to have an enormous impact on the world, as well as the fact that she wil suffer betrayal (and will betray others). So,  she refuses to sail back to Pentos, for while she will be pampered there, she will feel as powerless, and thus she wants to amass an army for herself, setting her on her aSoS journey

. The feeling of being "special" pushes her to seek the boundaries to solve external problems that are in opposition with each other (Unsullied are an army that will not rape and pillage, but they are slaves), and then decide to free slaves and end slavery in Slaver's Bay. Sure, she questioned rape and killing of common folk by the Dothraki in aGoT, but it's not until Selmy shows up that she realizes that Westeros does not have slaves. She never really questioned slavery much before (not with the Dothraki, not in Qarth), for its a common thing in the free cities of Essos, except in Braavos (which is exactly the time she can't remember much at all). To be an acceptable queen of Westeros and be welcomed, she must prove herself anti-slavery. Westeros can't refuse a Targ who ends all slavery in Essos, can they? And since it's her destiny to be great and special, Westeros can wait.

Sometime while writing aCoK, George conceived of the idea of Young Griff. Instead of pitting Dany against Jon or righteous Stannis upon her arrival at Westeros, he required a potential Targ (who looks like one) to do what she comes to believe belongs to her and what she is destined to do. And for that to work, Young Griff must be a charismatic young man, but a man nonetheless, not a boy, who military veterans would follow at heart's content. Young Griff just isn't old enough yet to do this at the end of aCoK or aSoS (George had hoped that time had passed faster in aSoS). So, Dany must be stalled in Mereen (because constantly having her lay cities to waste after waste gets repetitious), for Young Griff to come into his own, for her dragons to grow big enough and not be instantly killable by Dornish ballistas, and for her to experiment with the queen who is both pampered in wealth and luxury and has power of her own.

We as readers want Dany to hurry up and be great in Westeros. Unfortunately, George imo never planned Dany to be welcomed with wide open arms in Westeros as a queen who saves them.

 

[Plain, Simple Tailor]

Some important stuff came out of it (Quaithe, THotU), and overall it’s just kind of harmless. Keeping it in doesn’t take much away. 

[Victor Newman]

On 5/9/2019 at 9:03 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

Admittedly I think these only come to 6 chapters in an otherwise enormous book. However, do you think in hindsight GRRM should have cut this plot line of Dany being lost in the desert and seeking aid in Qarth? 

In the early books you are led to believe that Danys Essos storyline was only ever meant to be a simple tale of her getting an army and going to Westeros. When I read ACOK, I reasoned that Dany did still need the time to develop as a character before entering the big leagues; plus a harmless bit of filler as her Essos story was limited in scope didn’t hurt. However, the second GRRM wanted to go into the politics, set up a multi POV battle of Mereen and IMO build towards Dany conquering all of Essos; he really didn’t have the luxury of Qaarth.

If GRRM had cut Qaarth then he could have just went straight to Astapor instead. The House of the Undying could simply be in Mereen. So you could take the relevant bits out of ACOK without losing that much.

Its as if GRRM thought Dany was too far ahead in her arc during ACOK and slammed the breaks on; when now she’s massively behind the rest of the characters. So much so that we have poor Doran and Kevin asking themselves where Dany is when she won’t be coming for a very long time. Dany shouldn’t even be on Kevin’s radar and I always thought GRRM was being disingenuous when he did that. Thousands of miles away they shouldn’t care.

The book would not have become a best seller without Dany's chapters.  I would have passed on A Clash of Kings without her point of view chapters.  The Daenerys Targaryen chapters are George Martin's best works.  He was honored with a Hugo Award for those chapters.

 

[Tyrion1991]

3 minutes ago, Victor Newman said:

The book would not have become a best seller without Dany's chapters.  I would have passed on A Clash of Kings without her point of view chapters.  The Daenerys Targaryen chapters are George Martin's best works.  He was honored with a Hugo Award for those chapters.

 

 

I wasn’t aware of that.

As I mentioned earlier on, they are good chapters and I would never say no to getting more of Danny’s story. 

However I don’t think he wrote them with a view that he was going to have a massive amount of plot and story to tell in Essos. I think, when he wrote Clash, he figured that Dany going to Westeros was a simple matter once she physically had the army and wanted to go. As in literally two chapters of travel and then she’s at Pentos. 

But by Dance, the Battle of Meereen and the Dothraki plot lines have spiralled far beyond things that can be so swiftly resolved. It’ll probably take all of TWOW to resolve them. If that. 

Indeed I suspect the Essos plot is again the reason why TWOW has been delayed like it was with AdWD. He probably has more story than can fit into two novels and lacks the space for all his POV; but is pushing back calls to split them.

Hindsight is 20:20 but I don’t think he would have written Danys plot line the same way if he had intended the Essos plot line to become as sprawling as it is. ACOK was written like GRRM could flip a switch at any point and Dany could go to Westeros.

[Victor Newman]

Just now, Tyrion1991 said:

 

I wasn’t aware of that.

As I mentioned earlier on, they are good chapters and I would never say no to getting more of Danny’s story. 

However I don’t think he wrote them with a view that he was going to have a massive amount of plot and story to tell in Essos. I think, when he wrote Clash, he figured that Dany going to Westeros was a simple matter once she physically had the army and wanted to go. As in literally two chapters of travel and then she’s at Pentos. 

But by Dance, the Battle of Meereen and the Dothraki plot lines have spiralled far beyond things that can be so swiftly resolved. It’ll probably take all of TWOW to resolve them. If that. 

Indeed I suspect the Essos plot is again the reason why TWOW has been delayed like it was with AdWD. He probably has more story than can fit into two novels and lacks the space for all his POV; but is pushing back calls to split them.

Hindsight is 20:20 but I don’t think he would have written Danys plot line the same way if he had intended the Essos plot line to become as sprawling as it is. ACOK was written like GRRM could flip a switch at any point and Dany could go to Westeros.

I guess you and I are reading the story from two different angles.  What is going on in Essos is crucial to the overall plot.  Have you wondered why Barristan, Tyrion, and Marwyn got sent to Daenerys almost like the three wise men of the bible sought out the baby Jesus.  Religious symbolisms aside, yeah, what Daenerys is doing in Essos is important to the overall story and required those chapters.  Who knows, Westeros might enter the ice age and the only ones who live are the ones sensible enough to head to Essos.  

[Tyrion1991]

11 minutes ago, Victor Newman said:

I guess you and I are reading the story from two different angles.  What is going on in Essos is crucial to the overall plot.  Have you wondered why Barristan, Tyrion, and Marwyn got sent to Daenerys almost like the three wise men of the bible sought out the baby Jesus.  Religious symbolisms aside, yeah, what Daenerys is doing in Essos is important to the overall story and required those chapters.  Who knows, Westeros might enter the ice age and the only ones who live are the ones sensible enough to head to Essos.  

 

I think GRRM has said that the story is about Westeros. This is why there isn’t an Essos POV.

What Dany does in Essos precludes her going to Westeros. This may have made sense in the first three books. But by the end of ADWD it’s very clear Dany is going to spend a frighteningly short amount of time in Westeros. Essentially part of ADOS. Something ostensibly on the cards since the first book; yet not happening until the last. It will mean that GRRM won’t have time to develop key relationships between Dany and the other POV. She’ll just rock up in the final book and suddenly be relevant to everyone. It will be a jarring moment in the story.

For me it is this sense that one detracts from the other. That more Essos has meant Dany will spend very little time in Westeros. Which is what’s promised in her very first chapter. 

 

[Tyrion1991]

20 minutes ago, Victor Newman said:

I guess you and I are reading the story from two different angles.  What is going on in Essos is crucial to the overall plot.  Have you wondered why Barristan, Tyrion, and Marwyn got sent to Daenerys almost like the three wise men of the bible sought out the baby Jesus.  Religious symbolisms aside, yeah, what Daenerys is doing in Essos is important to the overall story and required those chapters.  Who knows, Westeros might enter the ice age and the only ones who live are the ones sensible enough to head to Essos.  

 

I think GRRM has said that the story is about Westeros. This is why there isn’t an Essos POV.

What Dany does in Essos precludes her going to Westeros. This may have made sense in the first three books. But by the end of ADWD it’s very clear Dany is going to spend a frighteningly short amount of time in Westeros. Essentially part of ADOS. Something ostensibly on the cards since the first book; yet not happening until the last. It will mean that GRRM won’t have time to develop key relationships between Dany and the other POV. She’ll just rock up in the final book and suddenly be relevant to everyone. It will be a jarring moment in the story.

For me it is this sense that one detracts from the other. That more Essos has meant Dany will spend very little time in Westeros. Which is what’s promised in her very first chapter. 

Well yes, Dany potentially convincing the entire Dothraki people to join her and essentially conquer Essos is a big deal. It’s a lot more important than Aegon crossing with 10,000 mercenaries. But, it’s crossed that threshold. Danny’s endgame shouldn’t be making the crossing into Westeros. That should be her mid game move. 

For me the worst thing that GRRM could do is have Dany arrive in the first third of ADOS, have a few chapters in Westeros, then spend the rest dealing with the Long Night before sliding into the epilogue. Certainly not Dany having a Robb Stark esque War with the Great Lords of Westeros. I don’t think people appreciate how little time Dany will have to do that in Westeros. Even if other POV can relate what Danny’s doing once she’s in Westeros; it won’t be enough tic offset it.