King Gendry I Baratheon

[YOVMO]

Ok, so a lot has already been made of the fact that by legitimizing Gendry (Gendry Rivers :::audible groan:::) Dany has created a claimaint to the throne making him Robert's heir. However, there is another concern. Because the Targ's practice agnatic primogeniture it would seem to me that by legitimizing Gendry, even without thought to Robert's reign as King, Dany still gives him a better claim to the throne. Assuming strict line of succession and not taking the throne by force, Jon is clearly the heir to the throne as Rhaegar's son. However, as of yet the realm is unaware of this. If the realm were to stay unaware or if Jon were to abdicate the throne, go north of the wall to live in repose, get killed, whatever....the next in the line of succession would no longer be Dany, but rather Gendry as the great grandson of Rhaella. Nice move.

[LearnToBeNoOne]

1 hour ago, YOVMO said:

Ok, so a lot has already been made of the fact that by legitimizing Gendry (Gendry Rivers :::audible groan:::) Dany has created a claimaint to the throne making him Robert's heir. However, there is another concern. Because the Targ's practice agnatic primogeniture it would seem to me that by legitimizing Gendry, even without thought to Robert's reign as King, Dany still gives him a better claim to the throne. Assuming strict line of succession and not taking the throne by force, Jon is clearly the heir to the throne as Rhaegar's son. However, as of yet the realm is unaware of this. If the realm were to stay unaware or if Jon were to abdicate the throne, go north of the wall to live in repose, get killed, whatever....the next in the line of succession would no longer be Dany, but rather Gendry as the great grandson of Rhaella. Nice move.

It doesn't hold any value unless she dethrones Cersei and officially announces it as Queen of the 7 Kingdoms, right now she's self titled by herself and her followers. So officially he's not legitimised and if she does so once made Queen then dethroning her to throne him will be a bit of a stretch. Doubt the show would go into this much detail or make the effort though.

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

1 hour ago, YOVMO said:

Ok, so a lot has already been made of the fact that by legitimizing Gendry (Gendry Rivers :::audible groan:::) Dany has created a claimaint to the throne making him Robert's heir. However, there is another concern. Because the Targ's practice agnatic primogeniture it would seem to me that by legitimizing Gendry, even without thought to Robert's reign as King, Dany still gives him a better claim to the throne. Assuming strict line of succession and not taking the throne by force, Jon is clearly the heir to the throne as Rhaegar's son. However, as of yet the realm is unaware of this. If the realm were to stay unaware or if Jon were to abdicate the throne, go north of the wall to live in repose, get killed, whatever....the next in the line of succession would no longer be Dany, but rather Gendry as the great grandson of Rhaella. Nice move.

Unrelated to the King Gendry thing, but I’m still holding out hope the Rivers error wasn’t just a screw-up on the part of the show, but a hint of a twist or something. 

[YOVMO]

8 minutes ago, LearnToBeNoOne said:

It doesn't hold any value unless she dethrones Cersei and officially announces it as Queen of the 7 Kingdoms, right now she's self titled by herself and her followers. So officially he's not legitimised and if she does so once made Queen then dethroning her to throne him will be a bit of a stretch. Doubt the show would go into this much detail or make the effort though.

Yes, you are correct which is why I mentioned aside from the actuality of taking a throne by force. My question is very much straight forward a line of succession question and as far as I can see the line of succession, given Gendry's legitimization, Goes Jon (who clearly wants no part of it) then Gendry then Dany. 

I agree the show wouldn't go too much into it, they are far too busy writing bad television with absolutely no coherent plot to do something interesting.

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

1 minute ago, YOVMO said:

Yes, you are correct which is why I mentioned aside from the actuality of taking a throne by force. My question is very much straight forward a line of succession question and as far as I can see the line of succession, given Gendry's legitimization, Goes Jon (who clearly wants no part of it) then Gendry then Dany. 

I agree the show wouldn't go too much into it, they are far too busy writing bad television with absolutely no coherent plot to do something interesting.

Jon, Dany, and then Gendry if he takes the IT as a Baratheon. 

He may or may not be the best candidate for taking the IT as a Targaryen

[YOVMO]

6 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Unrelated to the King Gendry thing, but I’m still holding out hope the Rivers error wasn’t just a screw-up on the part of the show, but a hint of a twist or something. 

We know for a fact that Gendry was born in flea bottom. As a peasant he wouldn't even be given a bastard surname as that would be reserved for high born bastards. He would just be Gendry. But that aside, if he had decided to give himself a bastard surname it would be Gendry Waters because he was born in and lived in the Crownlands. However, after finding out about Robert it is possible he might have used Gendry Storm as his father was a Stormlander.

For Gendry Rivers to be a reveal and not an egregiously sloppy error he would need some connection to the riverlands that he felt very strongly about. His mother worked in an ale house. So is it possible that his mother was actually a high born Riverlander? And if so is it possible Gendry found out about it off screen? And if so, is it possible that in that very short period of time, without ever having stepped foot there, the Riverlands became more important to him than the place of his birth and childhood or the place his revealed father, King Robert, was from? I mean...I suppose it is possible. But it wouldn't make any sense and I can't see it going anywhere. That said, that is 80% of the show for the last 2 seasons so who knows.

[YOVMO]

3 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Jon, Dany, and then Gendry if he takes the IT as a Baratheon. 

He may or may not be the best candidate for taking the IT as a Targaryen

I believe your order is incorrect. The Targaryen's practice agnatic primogeniture by law which means all male Targaryens must be gone before a female can be considered. So it would be Jon, then Gendry then Dany. Gendry is, after Jon, the last male with Targaryen blood and as such his claim will be stronger than Dany's

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

Just now, YOVMO said:

We know for a fact that Gendry was born in flea bottom. As a peasant he wouldn't even be given a bastard surname as that would be reserved for high born bastards. He would just be Gendry. But that aside, if he had decided to give himself a bastard surname it would be Gendry Waters because he was born in and lived in the Crownlands. However, after finding out about Robert it is possible he might have used Gendry Storm as his father was a Stormlander.

For Gendry Rivers to be a reveal and not an egregiously sloppy error he would need some connection to the riverlands that he felt very strongly about. His mother worked in an ale house. So is it possible that his mother was actually a high born Riverlander? And if so is it possible Gendry found out about it off screen? And if so, is it possible that in that very short period of time, without ever having stepped foot there, the Riverlands became more important to him than the place of his birth and childhood or the place his revealed father, King Robert, was from? I mean...I suppose it is possible. But it wouldn't make any sense and I can't see it going anywhere. That said, that is 80% of the show for the last 2 seasons so who knows.

True, and I’m sure it’s nothing more than a stupid oversight a la coffeecupgate. 

I was thinking more of a he’s actually a Faceless Man type reveal, and the FM impersonating him just screwed up. 

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

4 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

I believe your order is incorrect. The Targaryen's practice agnatic primogeniture by law which means all male Targaryens must be gone before a female can be considered. So it would be Jon, then Gendry then Dany. Gendry is, after Jon, the last male with Targaryen blood and as such his claim will be stronger than Dany's

Could be. The only instance that comes to mind is the succession after Maekar died and Brynden Rivers forced a council to pass over females with a better claim. 

[YOVMO]

Just now, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Could be. The only instance that comes to mind is the succession after Maekar died and Brynden Rivers forced a council to pass over females with a better claim. 

Yes! Had this conversation just yesterday with a friend of mine. Dany and a legitimized Gendry is very much this situation repeating itself. I am going to take a little time this weekend to reacquire myself with the events which happened after the death of Aegon IV wrt succession and the great bastards. I wonder if Daeron II was younger than Daemon Blackfyre.

I really wish I had the kind of faith in the show that lead me to believe that they are actually writing out a subtle bit of tie in, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that the show isn't just all " You want a good girl, but you need the bad pussy "

[Erkan12]

Gendry isn't a Targaryen, he is a Baratheon. House Baratheon had no right to the iron throne, which is why Dany calls Robert usurper.

As for having the Targaryen blood, that's not important, that was just an excuse for Jon Arryn and Ned to put Robert on the Iron Throne, since they didn't want it.

Martells also have Targaryen blood, or other houses from Riverlands and Reach also has Targaryen marriages, that doesn't give them a right for the Iron Throne.

[YOVMO]

4 minutes ago, Erkan12 said:

Gendry isn't a Targaryen, he is a Baratheon. House Baratheon had no right to the iron throne, which is why Dany calls Robert usurper.

As for having the Targaryen blood, that's not important, that was just an excuse for Jon Arryn and Ned to put Robert on the Iron Throne, since they didn't want it.

Martells also have Targaryen blood, or other houses from Riverlands and Reach also has Targaryen marriages, that doesn't give them a right for the Iron Throne.

That is incorrect. In fact, while Robert's claim to the throne in practicality was winning the revolution, the reasons given for him to be king was his Targaryen blood. Hi grandmother was Rhaella Targaryen which makes Rhaella Gendry's grandmother.  Call it Arryn's excuse if you will, but by law, after the death of Rhaegar and with Viscyers in Essos, Robert was in fact the next in the line of succession to the Iron Throne.

 

Put simply, if you took the rebellion out of the picture and the mad king and his entire family died in a bus accident, Robert would have been tapped as king as the next in line. Yes, there are other's with targ blood there was a lot of targs boning a lot of high borns, but it isn't JUST targ blood it is of the royal line. Aegon V's daughter Rhaella was Steffon Baratheon's mother. This wasn't some cousin, Robert can trace his line back to Aegon V and was the only one in westeros with any way to trace direct ancestry back to a King. There are three people in westeros who can do that now, Jon, Gendry and Dany. As a Bastard, Gendry would have been out of the running. As legitimized it is different. It was codified at the great council that primogeniture would be agnatic so Dany doesn't get a thing until every male Targaryen in the line of kings is gone so she is third.

[Larger than Average Finger]

Here's the way I look at it, if Danny is the True Queen, then succession reverts back to before Roberts Rebellion.  If she is not, her legitimization is irrelevant.  Either way Gendry has little claim.

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

2 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

That is incorrect. In fact, while Robert's claim to the throne in practicality was winning the revolution, the reasons given for him to be king was his Targaryen blood. Hi grandmother was Rhaella Targaryen which makes Rhaella Gendry's grandmother.  Call it Arryn's excuse if you will, but by law, after the death of Rhaegar and with Viscyers in Essos, Robert was in fact the next in the line of succession to the Iron Throne.

 

Put simply, if you took the rebellion out of the picture and the mad king and his entire family died in a bus accident, Robert would have been tapped as king as the next in line. Yes, there are other's with targ blood there was a lot of targs boning a lot of high borns, but it isn't JUST targ blood it is of the royal line. Aegon V's daughter Rhaella was Steffon Baratheon's mother. This wasn't some cousin, Robert can trace his line back to Aegon V and was the only one in westeros with any way to trace direct ancestry back to a King. There are three people in westeros who can do that now, Jon, Gendry and Dany. As a Bastard, Gendry would have been out of the running. As legitimized it is different. It was codified at the great council that primogeniture would be agnatic so Dany doesn't get a thing until every male Targaryen in the line of kings is gone so she is third.

Would be interesting to know if there was another reason for Robert electing to take the IT by conquest and begin the rule of House Baratheon, instead of continuing as a Targaryen ruler. 

Probably just because he hated Targaryens, but still interesting to speculate over. 

[Erkan12]

11 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

That is incorrect. In fact, while Robert's claim to the throne in practicality was winning the revolution, the reasons given for him to be king was his Targaryen blood. Hi grandmother was Rhaella Targaryen which makes Rhaella Gendry's grandmother.  Call it Arryn's excuse if you will, but by law, after the death of Rhaegar and with Viscyers in Essos, Robert was in fact the next in the line of succession to the Iron Throne.

 

Put simply, if you took the rebellion out of the picture and the mad king and his entire family died in a bus accident, Robert would have been tapped as king as the next in line. Yes, there are other's with targ blood there was a lot of targs boning a lot of high borns, but it isn't JUST targ blood it is of the royal line. Aegon V's daughter Rhaella was Steffon Baratheon's mother. This wasn't some cousin, Robert can trace his line back to Aegon V and was the only one in westeros with any way to trace direct ancestry back to a King. There are three people in westeros who can do that now, Jon, Gendry and Dany. As a Bastard, Gendry would have been out of the running. As legitimized it is different. It was codified at the great council that primogeniture would be agnatic so Dany doesn't get a thing until every male Targaryen in the line of kings is gone so she is third.

Robert's grandmother was a Targaryen daughter? That's not as good as being married with the King Targaryen. Mariah Martell was married with King Daeron, that's far far better than simply having a Targaryen blood, House Martell had a queen of 7 kingdoms. If you want to talk about blood line, House Martell had far better than House Baratheon's.

[YOVMO]

1 minute ago, Larger than Average Finger said:

Here's the way I look at it, if Danny is the True Queen, then succession reverts back to before Roberts Rebellion.  If she is not, her legitimization is irrelevant.  Either way Gendry has little claim.

But that is just where it gets tricky i thnk (and honestly where it gets fun...lets not forget this is all fun and games .... no one has lost an eye ).

 

I agree, if Danny is the True Queen then succession revert back to pre roberts rebellion. So lets take the line of succession from before the rebellion

King Aryes

Rhaegar (kings eldest son)

Aegon (Rhaegar's son)

Viscyres (kings younger son)

Robert (Rhaegar's Cousin)

Joff (*)

Tommen (*) (stars for joff and tommen obviously because Robert isn't their real Father

 

Dany does not fit into the line of succession at all when Aryes and Rhegar are still alive assuming Robert has male heirs.

So ok, now lets add in a legitimized Gendry Baratheon and Jon Snow

King Aryes

Rhaegar (kings eldest son)

Aegon (Rhaegar's son)

Viscyres (kings younger son)

Robert (Rhaegar's Cousin)

GENDRY

Joff (*)

Tommen (*) (stars for joff and tommen obviously because Robert isn't their real Father

 

If Gendry is a Baratheon he is older than Joff so, totaly excluding Robert's rebellion he is 5th in a line of succession which Dany is never in.

Now we knock out who is dead at the time that Dany winning the IT rolls back robert's rebellion.

Aryes, dead. Rhaegar, dead.Aegon (book dead, show Jon Snow).

So Jon is the rightful heir of Rhaegar.

Now let us say that Jon abdicates as it does seem he has no interest in being king.

Next it would pass to Visyers (dead) then Robert as Rhaegar's cousin, dead.......leaving us with King Gendry I Baratheon having nothing to do with Robert's rebellion and reign only with the Targaryen line of succession.

 

 

[YOVMO]

4 minutes ago, Erkan12 said:

Robert's grandmother was married with a Targaryen daughter? That's not as good as being married with the King Targaryen. Mariah Martell was married with King Daeron, that's far far better than simply having a Targaryen blood, House Martell had a queen of 7 kingdoms. If you want to talk about blood line, House Martell had far better than House Baratheon's.

Robert's Great Grandfather was King Aegon V and the larger point is that women, by westerosi law, do not get a nod to the throne unless all the men are gone

[Erkan12]

1 minute ago, YOVMO said:

Robert's Great Grandfather was King Aegon V

Rhaelle was never in the line of succession, that's the point.

Mariah Martell was a queen, Rhaelle wasn't.

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

3 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

Robert's Great Grandfather was King Aegon V and the larger point is that women, by westerosi law, do not get a nod to the throne unless all the men are gone

I’ve been googling a little and can’t find anything specifying how much Targaryen blood a male heir must have before he precedes a female in the line of succession. 2 generations removed? 5? 15?

At some point it becomes a little absurd to have to pull a random dude out of the woodwork. 

[YOVMO]

6 minutes ago, Erkan12 said:

Rhaelle was never in the line of succession, that's the point.

Mariah Martell was a queen, Rhaelle wasn't.

And does she have any living male children, grand children or great grandchildren in the 7 kingdoms that can press a claim or are we saying "if there was a direct decendent of Mariah Martell and Daeron the Good they would have a better claim. If the latter, you are right. If Daeron II and Mariah have a great grandson I will immediatley consider HIM above dany in the line of succession and, likely, above Gendry. In the meantime, Gendry is the great, great grandson of King Aegon V which means he has a better claim than Rhaegar's sister. As long as there are males in the line of the king there will never be a female to sit the throne.

Again, you are absolutely right, if there is a male heir of Mariah and Daeron it is very likely they have a better claim then Gendry. Both that heir AND gendry would still have a better claim than Dany.