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King Gendry I Baratheon

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Just now, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

I’ve been googling a little and can’t find anything specifying how much Targaryen blood a male heir must have before he precedes a female in the line of succession. 2 generations removed? 5? 15?

At some point it becomes a little absurd to have to pull a random dude out of the woodwork. 

It isn't just blood line though it is also status. Bastards never have a claim. Gendry had nothing until the moment Dany made him Gendry Baratheon. The blood of Aegon V didn't matter because he wasn't noble. However, as Lord Gendry Baratheon of Storms end, son of Robert, Grandson of Rhaella and great grandson of King Aegon V he has a better claim than any female targaryen

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Posted (edited)

And Gendry's mother is not even from a noble house, that's another problem. It's 7 Kingdoms because there are 8 great houses (it's 8 due to Riverlands and Iron Islands are separated after Targaryens dynasty) who rules these regions. Being married with one of these great houses is obviously gives a better claim than a bastard born whose mother wasn't even from any noble house, let alone a great house.

Edited by Erkan12

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3 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

It isn't just blood line though it is also status. Bastards never have a claim. Gendry had nothing until the moment Dany made him Gendry Baratheon. The blood of Aegon V didn't matter because he wasn't noble. However, as Lord Gendry Baratheon of Storms end, son of Robert, Grandson of Rhaella and great grandson of King Aegon V he has a better claim than any female targaryen

Historically, bastards absolutely have a claim, assuming they want to fight for it, or they’re legitimized. That’s been well established in actual historical precedent. 

The second part is my whole question. At what point in this type of succession would they accept a daughter of the last king instead of trying to find some potentially obscure guy to rule? 

Assuming Gendry didn’t exist, who then would supersede dany? 

 

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These fine details of who might reign are kind of missing the point that there aren't any courts adjudicating this. The ultimate decision will be on the basis of power. Some 14-generations-removed male cousin is not going to have the power to oppose a queen on the throne; it wouldn't even be considered, that would be death.

Daenerys shouldn't have a problem with Gendry, either, unless traitors take up his cause.

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Posted (edited)

There is an outside possibility (however remote) that Gendry is trueborn, the product of Robert and Cersei.  Here's some food for thought, most of which I wrote up elsewhere last month.

R+C=G is an old theory which fans have debated off and on ever since Season 1 because that's where most of its evidence resides, starting with:

s01e02 "The Kingsroad", where Cersei said this to Catelyn Stark: 

"l lost my first boy, a little black-haired beauty. He was a fighter too - tried to beat the fever that took him. lt was years ago. Robert was crazed, beat his hands bloody on the wall, all the things men do to show you how much they care. The boy looked just like him. Such a little thing. A bird without feathers. They came to take his body away and Robert held me. l screamed and l battled, but he held me. That little bundle. They took him away and l never saw him again. Never have visited the crypt, never." 

Watch the clip here. 

In s01e05 "The Wolf and the Lion" Cersei told Robert: 

"I felt something for you once, you know? Even after we lost our first boy. For quite a while, actually." 

Watch the clip here.

In s01e04 "Cripples, Bastards, and Broken Things" Gendry told Ned Stark: 

"But then he started asking me about my mother. Who she was, what she looked like. She died when I was little. She had yellow hair. She'd sing to me sometimes."

Watch the clip here.

In s07e05 "Eastwatch", Gendry told Jon that he was a "fightertoo when they met. Watch that scene here.

In the books, Cersei never loved Robert and she never bore him any children, having aborted one pregnancy long before it could come to term, so the showrunners made an intentional change to the story here. The conversation between Robert and Cersei is also their invention, not adapted from the book.

Detractors from this theory believe that Cersei's story to Catelyn was just to express faux sympathy for Bran and to highlight the fact that Robert's children do have black hair --nothing more. Similarly, the "yellow hair" of Gendry's mother could simply be there to further emphasize Jon Arryn's statement that "the seed is strong" --strong enough for the black hair gene of the father to override a blonde gene on the mother's side, no matter who she is. Additionally, detractors cite the fact that Gendry told both Arya and Melisandre that his mother was just a "low-born, tavern wench", and they also cite Maggy the Frog's prophecy to young Cersei depicted in s05e01 "The Wars to Come" (here's the clip):

CERSEI: "Will the king and I have children? 
MAGGY: "No. The king will have 20 children and you will have three. Gold will be their crowns. Gold their shrouds."

However, in the show at least, Robert and Cersei did have a child together which seemingly contradicts this prophecy! The Game of Thrones wiki has an entry for "Baratheon (son of Robert)"which states: "Writer Bryan Cogman was directly asked about this with regard to Maggy's prophecy, and he indeed confirmed that Cersei's black-haired son with Robert simply isn't included in her 'official' count of children because he died in the cradle". This referenced a Watchers on the Wall article which stated:

"I reached out to Bryan Cogman for comment, asking if there was, indeed, a continuity error, and he replied: 'No. Maggy’s just speaking of the three official kids who lived and were known, etc. The black haired baby was kept quiet.'”

So that prophecy is a bit mutable... as prophecies tend to be.

As for Gendry's mother being a tavern wench, perhaps that's just what he was told about her later... or, it was Cersei disguised as one because in the books Cersei came to Jaime in disguise, dressed as a tavern wench. She asked him: 

"Do you remember the first time I came to you like this? It was some dismal inn in Weasel Alley and I put on a servants garb to pass father's guards".  ~Cersei,  AFFC Jaime I

So how could Robert and Cersei's infant son have survived, and why? Someone who wanted to protect the child (from a jealous Jaime?) may have switched him out with a sickly one.  In A Dance with Dragons, Varys claims to have switched Aegon V Targaryen, Rhaegar’s son, with another baby shortly before the Mountain killed Rhaegar’s family, so infant swaps have happened in this story.  And speaking of Varys, I strongly suspect that that Gendry has been a strand in his Spider's web. 

In A Game of Thrones, we learn that Gendry's blacksmith mentor, Tobho Mott, took Gendry on as an apprentice after a mysterious man (likely Varys) paid him double the customary apprentice fee.  In the books Varys arranged for Gendry's departure from King's Landing with the Night's Watch in order to escape the purge of Robert's bastards, as Varys is also very likely the one who informed Joffrey of the whereabouts of the other bastards and so was aware of that plan.  Who else but Varys could have had such information? 

And Varys is a man of the people, looking out for their interests and prioritizing the peace and prosperity of the realm over any ruler --as he's claimed many times. I believe that he's had multiple "irons in the fire" so to speak in the hopes that one of them would pan out favorably as a good ruler that shares those values.  Gendry may have been a back-up plan to the Targaryen restoration (until Varys just learned of Jon's real lineage that is).  As commoner all of his life, Gendry would be sympathetic to the plight of common folk and probably become a benevolent ruler --which is what Varys truly desires. 

In s03e07 "The Bear and the Maiden Fair", Melisandre told Gendry of his true paternal lineage while they sailed to Dragonstone:

"There, your father's house."<cue the royal Baratheon theme music as they look up at The Red Keep> "The bastard of Robert of the House Baratheon, First of His Name, King of the Andals and the First Men."

Watch the clip here. Foreshadowing of much greater things to come? 

In a March interview with Men's Health magazine, Joe Dempsie (Gendry) said:

"I just wanted answers about my character. I was the most curious as to what we might find out about Gendry's parentage. Obviously, we know that he was the bastard of Robert Baratheon, but who might his mother have been?

"There's a line in season one, and it's a first scene you ever see of Gendry, where he's looking to Ned and he's asked about his mother, and he says he doesn't remember much about her at all, other than the fact that she had yellow hair and she would sing to him. It's one of those things where you go, 'Do they usually write lines that don't mean anything, or lines that seem to have significance that [are] never addressed again?' I was kind of intrigued to see what that might mean, and what impact that might have on Gendry's clout politically."

Later that same month, Maisie Williams (Arya) told Entertainment Weekly:

“After reading the scripts I went back and watched season 1 again because so much of it refers back to that season.”

It's possible that these are hints which will pertain to R+C=G, or the callbacks to Season 1 are just about visual details and parallels like the Winterfell crypts, the royal procession into Winterfell, etc. and that may be all that Maisie was talking about. Contextually, Dempsie was also speaking about indulging in cast members' theories so his comments may not pertain to the script and the actual outcome. 

Edited by Astrotherapist

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4 minutes ago, Astrotherapist said:

There is an outside possibility (however remote) that Gendry is trueborn, the product of Robert and Cersei.  Here's some food for thought, most of which I wrote up elsewhere last month.

R+C=G is an old theory which fans have debated off and on ever since Season 1 because that's where most of its evidence resides, starting with:

s01e02 "The Kingsroad", where Cersei said this to Catelyn Stark: 

"l lost my first boy, a little black-haired beauty. He was a fighter too - tried to beat the fever that took him. lt was years ago. Robert was crazed, beat his hands bloody on the wall, all the things men do to show you how much they care. The boy looked just like him. Such a little thing. A bird without feathers. They came to take his body away and Robert held me. l screamed and l battled, but he held me. That little bundle. They took him away and l never saw him again. Never have visited the crypt, never." 

Watch the clip here. 

In s01e05 "The Wolf and the Lion" Cersei told Robert: 

"I felt something for you once, you know? Even after we lost our first boy. For quite a while, actually." 

Watch the clip here.

In s01e04 "Cripples, Bastards, and Broken Things" Gendry told Ned Stark: 

"But then he started asking me about my mother. Who she was, what she looked like. She died when I was little. She had yellow hair. She'd sing to me sometimes."

Watch the clip here.

In s07e05 "Eastwatch", Gendry told Jon that he was a "fightertoo when they met. Watch that scene here.

In the books, Cersei never loved Robert and she never bore him any children, having aborted one pregnancy long before it could come to term, so the showrunners made an intentional change to the story here. The conversation between Robert and Cersei is also their invention, not adapted from the book.

Detractors from this theory believe that Cersei's story to Catelyn was just to express faux sympathy for Bran and to highlight the fact that Robert's children do have black hair --nothing more. Similarly, the "yellow hair" of Gendry's mother could simply be there to further emphasize Jon Arryn's statement that "the seed is strong" --strong enough for the black hair gene of the father to override a blonde gene on the mother's side, no matter who she is. Additionally, detractors cite the fact that Gendry told both Arya and Melisandre that his mother was just a "low-born, tavern wench", and they also cite Maggy the Frog's prophecy to young Cersei depicted in s05e01 "The Wars to Come" (here's the clip):

CERSEI: "Will the king and I have children? 
MAGGY: "No. The king will have 20 children and you will have three. Gold will be their crowns. Gold their shrouds."

However, in the show at least, Robert and Cersei did have a child together which seemingly contradicts this prophecy! The Game of Thrones wiki has an entry for "Baratheon (son of Robert)"which states: "Writer Bryan Cogman was directly asked about this with regard to Maggy's prophecy, and he indeed confirmed that Cersei's black-haired son with Robert simply isn't included in her 'official' count of children because he died in the cradle". This referenced a Watchers on the Wall article which stated:

"I reached out to Bryan Cogman for comment, asking if there was, indeed, a continuity error, and he replied: 'No. Maggy’s just speaking of the three official kids who lived and were known, etc. The black haired baby was kept quiet.'”

So that prophecy is a bit mutable... as prophecies tend to be.

As for Gendry's mother being a tavern wench, perhaps that's just what he was told about her later... or, it was Cersei disguised as one because in the books Cersei came to Jaime in disguise, dressed as a tavern wench. She asked him: 

"Do you remember the first time I came to you like this? It was some dismal inn in Weasel Alley and I put on a servants garb to pass father's guards".  ~Cersei,  AFFC Jaime I

So how could Robert and Cersei's infant son have survived, and why? Someone who wanted to protect the child (from a jealous Jaime?) may have switched him out with a sickly one.  In A Dance with Dragons, Varys claims to have switched Aegon V Targaryen, Rhaegar’s son, with another baby shortly before the Mountain killed Rhaegar’s family, so infant swaps have happened in this story.  And speaking of Varys, I strongly suspect that that Gendry has been a strand in his Spider's web. 

In A Game of Thrones, we learn that Gendry's blacksmith mentor, Tobho Mott, took Gendry on as an apprentice after a mysterious man (likely Varys) paid him double the customary apprentice fee.  In the books Varys arranged for Gendry's departure from King's Landing with the Night's Watch in order to escape the purge of Robert's bastards, as Varys is also very likely the one who informed Joffrey of the whereabouts of the other bastards and so was aware of that plan.  Who else but Varys could have had such information? 

And Varys is a man of the people, looking out for their interests and prioritizing the peace and prosperity of the realm over any ruler --as he's claimed many times. I believe that he's had multiple "irons in the fire" so to speak in the hopes that one of them would pan out favorably as a good ruler that shares those values.  Gendry may have been a back-up plan to the Targaryen restoration (until Varys just learned of Jon's real lineage that is).  As commoner all of his life, Gendry would be sympathetic to the plight of common folk and probably become a benevolent ruler --which is what Varys truly desires. 

In s03e07 "The Bear and the Maiden Fair", Melisandre told Gendry of his true paternal lineage while they sailed to Dragonstone:

"There, your father's house."<cue the royal Baratheon theme music as they look up at The Red Keep> "The bastard of Robert of the House Baratheon, First of His Name, King of the Andals and the First Men."

Watch the clip here. Foreshadowing of much greater things to come? 

In a March interview with Men's Health magazine, Joe Dempsie (Gendry) said:

"I just wanted answers about my character. I was the most curious as to what we might find out about Gendry's parentage. Obviously, we know that he was the bastard of Robert Baratheon, but who might his mother have been?

"There's a line in season one, and it's a first scene you ever see of Gendry, where he's looking to Ned and he's asked about his mother, and he says he doesn't remember much about her at all, other than the fact that she had yellow hair and she would sing to him. It's one of those things where you go, 'Do they usually write lines that don't mean anything, or lines that seem to have significance that [are] never addressed again?' I was kind of intrigued to see what that might mean, and what impact that might have on Gendry's clout politically."

Later that same month, Maisie Williams (Arya) told Entertainment Weekly:

“After reading the scripts I went back and watched season 1 again because so much of it refers back to that season.”

It's possible that these are hints which will pertain to R+C=G, or the callbacks to Season 1 are just about visual details and parallels like the Winterfell crypts, the royal procession into Winterfell, etc. and that may be all that Maisie was talking about. Contextually, Dempsie was also speaking about indulging in cast members' theories so his comments may not pertain to the script and the actual outcome. 

Would be interesting, especially since book lore has already established the idea of the changeling. 

But, probably just a way to drive home that Cersei had no intention of intentionally bearing and raising a real Baratheon. 

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4 minutes ago, Astrotherapist said:

There is an outside possibility (however remote) that Gendry is trueborn, the product of Robert and Cersei. 

The problem is not trueborn, but public acknowledgement. Usually through the father. Medieval rule works a little bit different without DNA tests and other ways to proof a relationship. The only way for anything is Bran and then it is only his word. 

In the end it's just more and more support structure to replace Edric. The same is true for Jon. Jon is acknowledged as son of Ned, that makes him higborn. Not that his father is Rhaegar. The proof is really based on acknowledgement through the father, because that is the trustworthy part.

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2 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

The problem is not trueborn, but public acknowledgement. Usually through the father. Medieval rule works a little bit different without DNA tests and other ways to proof a relationship. The only way for anything is Bran and then it is only his word. 

In the end it's just more and more support structure to replace Edric. The same is true for Jon. Jon is acknowledged as son of Ned, that makes him higborn. Not that his father is Rhaegar. The proof is really based on acknowledgement through the father, because that is the trustworthy part.

Bran can be seen externally as the Lord of Winterfell (despite his rejection of the position) and his word might count.  That's all there is, testimony, since as you rightly pointed out there really isn't any physical evidence like DNA tests in that society.  

Of course if Varys was involved in concealing Gendry's identity (as surmised above), then he can step forth as well. 

On the matter of public acknowledgement, none of this has to matter, anymore than it did when Jon was named "King in the North". After the dust settles, Gendry could be named King in a similar manner.  

 

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22 minutes ago, Astrotherapist said:

T
In s01e04 "Cripples, Bastards, and Broken Things" Gendry told Ned Stark: 

"But then he started asking me about my mother. Who she was, what she looked like. She died when I was little. She had yellow hair. She'd sing to me sometimes."

Watch the clip here.
 

So Gendry see her mother when he was little if he knew her hair color?

Then how did Robert not know about Gendry when Cersei was still nursing another child? How did no one know about Cersei's 4 or 5 years old kid?

It looks like this theory has been debunked already.

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1 minute ago, Erkan12 said:

So Gendry see her mother when he was little if he knew her hair color?

Then how did Robert not know about Gendry when Cersei was still nursing another child? How did no one know about Cersei's 4 or 5 years old kid?

It looks like this theory has been debunked already.

A person's memory can extend back before four or five. I have memories from age two, myself. 

The child could have had a wet nurse.  Some have suggested that Cersei visited the child for a time dressed as a tavern wench.  Others have suggested that Gendry was given to some blonde tavern wench, but he's still Cersei's son.  

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Just now, Astrotherapist said:

A person's memory can extend back before four or five. I have memories from age two, myself. 

The child could have had a wet nurse.  Some have suggested that Cersei visited the child for a time dressed as a tavern wench.  Others have suggested that Gendry was given to some blonde tavern wench, but he's still Cersei's son.  

You remember things when you were 2 years old? :o

Anyways, don't you think Cersei would search for this kid after Tommen's death? If she knew she had bastard son, then all of her children are dead, then she would find him already.

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9 minutes ago, Erkan12 said:

You remember things when you were 2 years old? :o

Anyways, don't you think Cersei would search for this kid after Tommen's death? If she knew she had bastard son, then all of her children are dead, then she would find him already.

If she believed the child was dead, she wouldn’t look. 

The child easily have been smuggled out before death, as allegedly happens in the books with another character. 

That said, I don’t think it’s the case here regardless. 

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33 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Would be interesting, especially since book lore has already established the idea of the changeling. 

But, probably just a way to drive home that Cersei had no intention of intentionally bearing and raising a real Baratheon. 

This is what she told Ned, very hatefully and defensively after he confronted her, but it isn't what she said to Cat, nor even to Robert in their conversation which I quoted above.  There was no reason for her to lie at that point either so I think we can take it at face value that she loved Robert and their first son, despite no reciprocation from him ever.

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3 minutes ago, Astrotherapist said:

This is what she told Ned, very hatefully and defensively after he confronted her, but it isn't what she said to Cat, nor even to Robert in their conversation which I quoted above.  There was no reason for her to lie at that point either so I think we can take it at face value that she loved Robert and their first son, despite no reciprocation from him ever.

Cersei recalling the existence of the child doesn’t preclude the idea that she killed it off. 

She also tells Robert her surviving kids are his. She lies, frequently. 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Cersei recalling the existence of the child doesn’t preclude the idea that she killed it off. 

She also tells Robert her surviving kids are his. She lies, frequently. 

Sure but that was a very necessary deception.  At the point of the conversation above, the relationship is dead, she's been slowly poisoning him to death with the Tears of Lys and his fate is sealed, so there's absolutely no motive for lying when she stated that she had once had feelings for him.  It was just a preamble to the fact that they're long gone and she feels nothing. 

I did offer links to clips so people can gain their own impressions, but that's what I saw happening.

Edited by Astrotherapist

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2 minutes ago, Astrotherapist said:

Sure but that was a very necessary deception.  At the point of the conversation above, the relationship is dead, she's been slowly poisoning him to death with the Tears of Lys and his fate is sealed, so there's absolutely no motive for lying when she stated that she had once had feelings for him.  It was just a preamble to the fact that they're long gone and she feels nothing. 

I did offer links to clips so people can gain their own impressions, but that's what I saw happening.

Sure, but Robert’s not so far gone during that conversation that he couldn’t make her life hell if he suspected she was lying. 

She brought it up to double down on it, possibly assuming that Cat told Ned and Ned told Robert that she mentioned it. It’s CYA for her. 

 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Sure, but Robert’s not so far gone during that conversation that he couldn’t make her life hell if he suspected she was lying. 

She brought it up to double down on it, possibly assuming that Cat told Ned and Ned told Robert that she mentioned it. It’s CYA for her. 

 

In the conversation in question, after she said "I felt something for you once, you know?", he replied with "I know". They both acknowledged a truth known between them.  

Edited by Astrotherapist

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1 minute ago, Astrotherapist said:

In the conversation in question, after she said "I felt something for you once, you know?", he replied with "I know". They both acknowledged a truth known between them.  

Sure, and it started downhill during their first night together, when Robert got plastered and then called her Lyanna during their bedding. 

It still doesn’t mean she couldn’t have offed the kid because she grew to hate his dad and she’s an awful person. 

She told the lie years ago and has to maintain it. That’s what she’s doing. 

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1 minute ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Sure, and it started downhill during their first night together, when Robert got plastered and then called her Lyanna during their bedding. 

It still doesn’t mean she couldn’t have offed the kid because she grew to hate his dad and she’s an awful person. 

She told the lie years ago and has to maintain it. That’s what she’s doing. 

You're missing the point.  "I know" from Robert means that part isn't a lie.  Yes the relationship was crap from the outset because he never got over Lyanna, but that doesn't mean that she wasn't smitten with him, for a while anyway.  A person can tell if someone else is into them.  

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