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King Gendry I Baratheon

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Just now, Astrotherapist said:

You're missing the point.  "I know" from Robert means that part isn't a lie.  Yes the relationship was crap from the outset because he never got over Lyanna, but that doesn't mean that she wasn't smitten with him, for a while anyway.  A person can tell if someone else is into them.  

Are we still talking about whether Cersei killed a baby she had by Robert? I’m no longer sure what we’re debating lol. 

Yes, Cersei and Robert once had feelings for each other, or at least Cersei did for him. The good feelings faded quickly, like lots of other arranged marriages in Westeros. 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Are we still talking about whether Cersei killed a baby she had by Robert? I’m no longer sure what we’re debating lol. 

Yes, Cersei and Robert once had feelings for each other, or at least Cersei did for him. The good feelings faded quickly, like lots of other arranged marriages in Westeros. 

Both, the feelings are a big part of it.  If she loved Robert then, (and she loves her own progeny -period) then she wouldn't have murdered their baby.  

Edited by Astrotherapist

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Just now, Astrotherapist said:

Both, the feelings are a big part of it.  If she loved Robert then, (and she loves her own progeny -period) then she wouldn't murder their baby.  

The baby came well after she began to despise Robert, and also, she’s absolutely the worst. 

I have no problem believing that she decided to use the limited autonomy she had in her marriage to ensure she never had to raise his heir. 

Interesting parallel with the relationship between Cat and Jon. She hated Jon, but never tried to kill him. 

 

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55 minutes ago, Erkan12 said:

You remember things when you were 2 years old? :o

Anyways, don't you think Cersei would search for this kid after Tommen's death? If she knew she had bastard son, then all of her children are dead, then she would find him already.

I have a memory of my 2nd birthday... quote a complicated one. And quite many of my pre-5 childhood. I can draw the appartment we lived in in great detail, though I moved on my 5th birthday. I think I have over 50 memories of that pre-5 age.

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12 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

The baby came well after she began to despise Robert, and also, she’s absolutely the worst. 

I have no problem believing that she decided to use the limited autonomy she had in her marriage to ensure she never had to raise his heir. 

Interesting parallel with the relationship between Cat and Jon. She hated Jon, but never tried to kill him. 

 

:bang: :lol: Not in the show.  

CERSEI: I felt something for you once, you know? 
ROBERT: I know.
CERSEI: Even after we lost our first boy.
For quite a while, actually.

Was it ever possible for us? Was there ever a time, ever a moment? 
ROBERT: No.

Zero motive for her lying at this point, the truth of her one-sided affections known and acknowledged between them here, the meaning of these words is quite explicit. 

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Posted (edited)

Anyway, back to Gendry.

If he is the son of Cersei, the current, official ruler of Westeros, then he would be her heir.

And for the record, I'm not particularly attached to the R+C=G theory.  It certainly isn't mine and it has been all over the Web for years, but I thought it was worth rehashing recently in light of Joe Dempsie's and Maisie Williams' comments this Spring.  And because this is another Gendry thread that's all about bastards and Westerosi succession law again...  just to mix it up a little. :D

 

Edited by Astrotherapist

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9 minutes ago, Astrotherapist said:

:bang: :lol: Not in the show.  

CERSEI: I felt something for you once, you know? 
ROBERT: I know.
CERSEI: Even after we lost our first boy.
For quite a while, actually.

Was it ever possible for us? Was there ever a time, ever a moment? 
ROBERT: No.

Zero motive for her lying at this point, the truth of her one-sided affections known and acknowledged between them here, the meaning of these words is quite explicit. 

“Even after we lost our first boy”. There were no other boys. No heirs for Robert. She’s maintaining the ruse that her children are his. 

She’s lying. She lies. That’s what she does. 

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After the reign of Lions & the Targs burning their city (aaaaand let's throw in the foreign armies) I would not be surprised if people would cling to a young Robert look alike. If not Jon let it be the Stag again!

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, YOVMO said:

Yes, you are correct which is why I mentioned aside from the actuality of taking a throne by force. My question is very much straight forward a line of succession question and as far as I can see the line of succession, given Gendry's legitimization, Goes Jon (who clearly wants no part of it) then Gendry then Dany. 

If we're talking about being relatives of House Targaryen do we take into account whether they were in succession of the throne or how much Targaryen blood they have?

Let's have a little analysis.

King Daeron II Targaryen (Daeron The Good) was married to Mariah Martell. Their son Aery's I Targaryen succeeded Daeron the same year his older brother Baelor died making him the heir, it couldn't go to Baelor's 2 son's as they also died. Aery's acknowledged four different heirs, firstly his brother Rhaegal who died then Rhaegal's only son Aelor who also died. Next came the third heir Aelora who also died. The final and fourth heir that he recognised was his brother Maekar who succeeded Aery's after he died. Here we see that Aelora took priority to the Iron Throne over Maekar so a woman could have taken the throne over a man. 

Maeker had four sons Daeron, Aerion, Aemon and Aegon V Targaryen and two daughters Daella and Rhae. Daeron and Aerion died, Aemon passed on the throne and it went to Aegon V Targaryen. Although Aegon was younger than Daella, he took priority over the throne. 

So Aelora (a female) daughter of Rhaegal came before her uncle Maekor (a male). 

Aegon the youngest son of Maeker (a male) had priority on the throne although he was younger than his sister Daella (a female).

Aegon had 5 children Duncan, Jaehaery's II, Shaera, Daeron and Rhaelle. Aegon was succeeded by his second son Jaehaery's II as Duncan passed on the iron throne for love, to be with Jenny of Oldstones.

Jaehaery's II had 2 children, Aery's II and Rhaella. Aery's II succeeded Jaehary's II as the sole male heir. Aery's II and Rhaella had 8 children, Rhaegar, Shaena, Daeron, a still born child, Aegon, Jaehary's, Viserys and Daenerys.

Here is where to Jon - Daenerys - Gendry will be concluded.

Rhaeger the oldest son of Aerys II was the heir to throne yet Aerys II, his wife Rhaella, Rhaeger, Rhaegar's wife Elia Martell, Rhaegar and Elia's children a daughter named Rhaenys and his son the heir to the throne named Aegon along with Shaena, Daeron, Aegon, and Jaehary's all met their demise in one way or another.

Viserys and Daenerys were thought to be the only remaining Targaryen's alive making Visery's the heir to the throne, after his death Daenery's became the sole heir.

However we find out that Rhaegar Targaryen married Lyanna Stark secretly in Dorne. They had a child Aegon Targaryen (Jon Snow) making him the true heir to the Iron Throne over Daenerys.

We know that Jon is willing to give up the Iron Throne to Daenerys which would once again make her the heir to the Iron Throne.

Now let's introduce Gendry into the equation, firstly if he isn't legitimised he has no chance.

If Gendry were to be legitimised would he go ahead of Denerys and become the heir to the Iron Throne? I don't believe that he would, you're not going to head all the way back up to Rhaelle Targaryen and Ormund Baratheon.

Rhaelle and Ormund had one child Steffon Baratheon who married Cassama Estermont. Steffon and Cassama had 3 children Robert I, Renly I and Stannis I.

Robert I had a child with a woman that we don't know about (outside of marriage) and had a child that's not legitimised but let's for arguments sake accept that he's the last surviving Baratheon, his name is Gendry.

We are only mentioning Gendry because his Uncle's Renly I and Stannis I along with Stannis' only child Shireen is dead.

Now back to why I believe Gendry doesn't take priority over Daenerys to the iron throne.

Firstly Daenery's is the daughter of Aery's II so considering all her male and female siblings are dead (who were all older) and out of her 2 nephew's and 1 niece (the children of her oldest brother) the only 1 alive doesn't want the throne, she is the true heir to the throne.

Secondly because we have seen in the case of Aelora the daughter of Rhaegal, a female can be the heir to the iron throne before a male as she came before her uncle Maekor.

So why would the heir to the iron throne skip Daenerys and go all the way back up to Rhaelle Targaryen and down through House Baratheon to her great grandson Gendry?

In summary I don't think even Gendry being legitimised would allow him be the heir to the Iron Throne ahead of Daenerys, his great grandmother (his only link to House Targaryen) was no way near succession to the Iron Throne and him being male shouldn't put him ahead considering it didn't help Maekor even though he was the son of Daeron and Aelora was the grand daughter.

It's messy but that's my opinion, I tried to justify it as best as possible.

Quote

I agree the show wouldn't go too much into it, they are far too busy writing bad television with absolutely no coherent plot to do something interesting.

That's right because they literally don't understand the characters they're working with and that shows.

Edited by LearnToBeNoOne

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On 5/10/2019 at 8:42 PM, LearnToBeNoOne said:

If we're talking about being relatives of House Targaryen do we take into account whether they were in succession of the throne or how much Targaryen blood they have?

 

First let me start by saying that while I disagree with your final conclusion, I loved your response. Thank you for it!

On 5/10/2019 at 8:42 PM, LearnToBeNoOne said:

Let's have a little analysis.

King Daeron II Targaryen (Daeron The Good) was married to Mariah Martell. Their son Aery's I Targaryen succeeded Daeron the same year his older brother Baelor died making him the heir, it couldn't go to Baelor's 2 son's as they also died. Aery's acknowledged four different heirs, firstly his brother Rhaegal who died then Rhaegal's only son Aelor who also died. Next came the third heir Aelora who also died. The final and fourth heir that he recognised was his brother Maekar who succeeded Aery's after he died. Here we see that Aelora took priority to the Iron Throne over Maekar so a woman could have taken the throne over a man. 

Did Aelora take priority or was it just because of her marraige to her brother Aelor?

On 5/10/2019 at 8:42 PM, LearnToBeNoOne said:

Maeker had four sons Daeron, Aerion, Aemon and Aegon V Targaryen and two daughters Daella and Rhae. Daeron and Aerion died, Aemon passed on the throne and it went to Aegon V Targaryen. Although Aegon was younger than Daella, he took priority over the throne. 

I thought this was all decided in the great council of 101 when male dominant primogeniture was codified as law.

On 5/10/2019 at 8:42 PM, LearnToBeNoOne said:

So Aelora (a female) daughter of Rhaegal came before her uncle Maekor (a male). 

Aegon the youngest son of Maeker (a male) had priority on the throne although he was younger than his sister Daella (a female).

Aegon had 5 children Duncan, Jaehaery's II, Shaera, Daeron and Rhaelle. Aegon was succeeded by his second son Jaehaery's II as Duncan passed on the iron throne for love, to be with Jenny of Oldstones.

Jaehaery's II had 2 children, Aery's II and Rhaella. Aery's II succeeded Jaehary's II as the sole male heir. Aery's II and Rhaella had 8 children, Rhaegar, Shaena, Daeron, a still born child, Aegon, Jaehary's, Viserys and Daenerys.

Here is where to Jon - Daenerys - Gendry will be concluded.

Rhaeger the oldest son of Aerys II was the heir to throne yet Aerys II, his wife Rhaella, Rhaeger, Rhaegar's wife Elia Martell, Rhaegar and Elia's children a daughter named Rhaenys and his son the heir to the throne named Aegon along with Shaena, Daeron, Aegon, and Jaehary's all met their demise in one way or another.

Viserys and Daenerys were thought to be the only remaining Targaryen's alive making Visery's the heir to the throne, after his death Daenery's became the sole heir.

Ok here I am following with you lock step.

On 5/10/2019 at 8:42 PM, LearnToBeNoOne said:

However we find out that Rhaegar Targaryen married Lyanna Stark secretly in Dorne. They had a child Aegon Targaryen (Jon Snow) making him the true heir to the Iron Throne over Daenerys.
 

Right, because the son of Rhaegar takes priority over the brother of Rhaegar.

On 5/10/2019 at 8:42 PM, LearnToBeNoOne said:

We know that Jon is willing to give up the Iron Throne to Daenerys which would once again make her the heir to the Iron Throne.

Here is where we disagee I think. I am of the opinion that the great concil of 101 made it so that any Male with royal targaryen blood too precidence over a female.

On 5/10/2019 at 8:42 PM, LearnToBeNoOne said:

Now let's introduce Gendry into the equation, firstly if he isn't legitimised he has no chance.

Correct on this too. It is only the legitimising that allows for the question.

On 5/10/2019 at 8:42 PM, LearnToBeNoOne said:

If Gendry were to be legitimised would he go ahead of Denerys and become the heir to the Iron Throne? I don't believe that he would, you're not going to head all the way back up to Rhaelle Targaryen and Ormund Baratheon.

And, by consequence, Aegon V.

On 5/10/2019 at 8:42 PM, LearnToBeNoOne said:

Rhaelle and Ormund had one child Steffon Baratheon who married Cassama Estermont. Steffon and Cassama had 3 children Robert I, Renly I and Stannis I.

Robert I had a child with a woman that we don't know about (outside of marriage) and had a child that's not legitimised but let's for arguments sake accept that he's the last surviving Baratheon, his name is Gendry.

We are only mentioning Gendry because his Uncle's Renly I and Stannis I along with Stannis' only child Shireen is dead.

Now back to why I believe Gendry doesn't take priority over Daenerys to the iron throne.

Firstly Daenery's is the daughter of Aery's II so considering all her male and female siblings are dead (who were all older) and out of her 2 nephew's and 1 niece (the children of her oldest brother) the only 1 alive doesn't want the throne, she is the true heir to the throne.

While this does make sense, I think I Have to say that Dany is out of the running with a legit Gendry for the same justification Robert I has to the throne.

If Robert I is the legal heir to the throne after the deaths of aerys and rhaegar and Viscyerys being in the wind, then it would be, i think, his issue not as a product of the rebellion but as a product of the targ heritage.

On 5/10/2019 at 8:42 PM, LearnToBeNoOne said:

Secondly because we have seen in the case of Aelora the daughter of Rhaegal, a female can be the heir to the iron throne before a male as she came before her uncle Maekor.

So why would the heir to the iron throne skip Daenerys and go all the way back up to Rhaelle Targaryen and down through House Baratheon to her great grandson Gendry?

In summary I don't think even Gendry being legitimised would allow him be the heir to the Iron Throne ahead of Daenerys, his great grandmother (his only link to House Targaryen) was no way near succession to the Iron Throne and him being male shouldn't put him ahead considering it didn't help Maekor even though he was the son of Daeron and Aelora was the grand daughter.

It's messy but that's my opinion, I tried to justify it as best as possible.

I think you made a very fair case and while I don't agree with you 100% I can def see your pov and agree it is compelling.

Run this one through though.

 

Let's say Aryes is still king and the royal family is as it is prior to the rebellion.  Then lets say they all get in thier family minivan and have an accident killing the entire family. No rebellion, total accident and everyone is killed with the exception of Dany who they didn't bring along for this family trip.

I believe it to be the case that then lord robert would be tapped as the next king of westeros in the targaryen line which would make his eldest issue the next in the line.

Of course, as a bastard, Gendry would have no place but as legitimized it would seem that Gendry is next.

Of course this doesn't really matter because Jon has the North and, ostensibly Riverrun and the Vale and Dorne and Dany has a Dragon

On 5/10/2019 at 8:42 PM, LearnToBeNoOne said:

That's right because they literally don't understand the characters they're working with and that shows.

 

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On 5/10/2019 at 1:13 PM, Hodor's Dragon said:

These fine details of who might reign are kind of missing the point that there aren't any courts adjudicating this. The ultimate decision will be on the basis of power. Some 14-generations-removed male cousin is not going to have the power to oppose a queen on the throne; it wouldn't even be considered, that would be death.

Daenerys shouldn't have a problem with Gendry, either, unless traitors take up his cause.

100% correct which I why I qualified my original comment saying that i am speaking strictly of line of succession. The part that got me was when Dany smirked and bragged to Tyrion how smart she was to make Gendry the Lord of Storms end without realizing that she also gave him a better claim to the throne

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Posted (edited)
On 5/10/2019 at 1:11 PM, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Historically, bastards absolutely have a claim, assuming they want to fight for it, or they’re legitimized. That’s been well established in actual historical precedent. 

The second part is my whole question. At what point in this type of succession would they accept a daughter of the last king instead of trying to find some potentially obscure guy to rule? 

Assuming Gendry didn’t exist, who then would supersede dany? 

 

Well, it would have been Stannis, then Renly. If Joff and Tommen had been legitimate they would have come first. Let's not forget that Robert had 16 children, and we only know of Mya Stone, Gendry, Edric Storm and Barra. 

Edited by Ice Queen

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