Jump to content
Tyrion1991

Is Danys story the reason TWOW is delayed?

Recommended Posts

I remember reading that ADWD was delayed because GRRM had issues juggling the various POV gathered around Daenerys in Meereen. 

However, he never actually resolved the Mereen storyline. In fact he made it much more complicated by having Danerys go on a tangent with the Dothraki. Even if that’s, literally a three chapter deal (unlikely)and she fast travels to Mereen or Volantis.

You have, arguably the biggest battle in the series at Mereen, you have Vic, Barristan, Dany and Tyrion as POV. Not to mention important support characters like Jorah, Moqorro and Daario. All those stories would need to be addressed. Dany will need a host of supporting Dothraki characters to be introduced for her story.

Thats a lot of material to cover. Then you have to address all the meetings and greetings which could follow. Then you have to address all these moving pieces making there way towards Essos.

Really the Essos plot line is far too big. You could and GRRM probably has written an entire novels worth of material on this alone. Trimming and summarising that into only a third the size (if not less) would be an impossible undertaking. He’s probably writing good material and constantly having to chuck it away because it won’t fit in the book.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That was the problem with ADWD, the Meereenese Knot. George never planned Dany's story to be this way in the first place: in the 1993 outline the dragons hatch, grow to maturity very fast and she turns right round from the Red Waste and goes to conquer Vaes Dothrak almost immediately and never goes to Qarth or Slaver's Bay. That material was introduced when George realised that the War of the Five Kings was going to be a much bigger story than he first thought and he needed to give Dany (and Jon for matter) some stuff to do whilst expanding that storyline.

The problem expanded further when he realised that he needed more Westeros characters to join Dany, but he made the distance so great that it was stretching plausibility (the equivalent of someone travelling from England to India in the 13th Century, which exceedingly rarely happened) and he needed to give them something to do on the way. And now he needs Dany to convince the Dothraki to join her, which he needs to do in a manner that's not artificial and rushed, but also can't take hundreds of pages either. I think he can do it - Drogon carrying Khal Drogo's name and just being there at the end of ADWD may streamline this a lot - but it's probably involved a lot of rewriting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

No way

I don't think the Daenerys ecosystem is the reason for the delay for Winds. I think the delay comes from the northern theater: the Bolton/Baratheon battle for Winterfell; the warring factions at Castle Black; Jon Snow's death, afterlife, resurrection; the journeys of Davos and Sansa; Bran's inevitable interference in all of the above, etc.

I think the single biggest issue with the northern theater delay is the timing.

Edited by Jabar of House Titan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

No way

I don't think the Daenerys ecosystem is the reason for the delay for Winds. I think the delay comes from the northern theater: the Bolton/Baratheon battle for Winterfell; the warring factions at Castle Black; Jon Snow's death, afterlife, resurrection; the journeys of Davos and Sansa; Bran's inevitable interference in all of the above, etc.

I think the single biggest issue with the northern theater delay is the timing.

To be honest I think it's both. GRRM has made both Meereen and The North insanely complicated. Possibly the most complicated plot lines I've seen in a book series. There are so many factions at play in both theaters, you'd have to be a master juggler to keep track of it all. To be honest I've pretty much forgot most of the people in both Stannis and the Bolton camps, along with the names of the people trying to destroy Meereen right now.

Edited by sifth

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, sifth said:

To be honest I think it's both. GRRM has made both Meereen and The North insanely complicated. Possibly the most complicated plot lines I've seen in a book series. There are so many factions at play in both theaters, you'd have to be a master juggler to keep track of it all. To be honest I've pretty much forgot most of the people in both Stannis and the Bolton camps, alone with the name of the people trying to destroy Meereen right now.

Well that's the thing: there's just so many people trying to destroy Meereen right now that the better question to ask is who isn't trying to destroy Meereen. Remember, we haven't figured out who is running the Sons of the Harpy yet.

But yeah: everything in the North has to be perfectly timed. Sansa can't arrive too early, Jon can't be resurrected too late, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Well that's the thing: there's just so many people trying to destroy Meereen right now that the better question to ask is who isn't trying to destroy Meereen. Remember, we haven't figured out who is running the Sons of the Harpy yet.

But yeah: everything in the North has to be perfectly timed. Sansa can't arrive too early, Jon can't be resurrected too late, etc.

Makes you wonder if GRRM made things just a little too complicated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, sifth said:

Makes you wonder if GRRM made things just a little too complicated.

No, I don't think things are too complicated.

I think his problem is a lack of organization and a lack of structure. Due to the fact that he is a gardener and not an architect like say J.K. Rowling. She already had the skeleton of the entire Harry Potter story before she started writing and adding muscle, blood vessels, nerve endings, ligaments, joints and organs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

No, I don't think things are too complicated.

I think his problem is a lack of organization and a lack of structure. Due to the fact that he is a gardener and not an architect like say J.K. Rowling. She already had the skeleton of the entire Harry Potter story before she started writing and adding muscle, blood vessels, nerve endings, ligaments, joints and organs.

I don’t know, the first 3 books seem very well organized to me. They were complicated sure, but not overly complicated. The fact that he kept adding and adding new POV’s hurt things I feel and made the story less focused.

This sort of reminds me of the final two seasons of the Wire. There are so many elements at play I’m not sure how anyone can keep this focused.

 

Edited by sifth

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's been long talked about that Mereenese knot has been a major problem for GRRM.  This is not to say that necessarily Dany's story is the problem though.  He is suffering from multiple problems like introducing more magic.  He has always attempted to keep things grounded in the reality that he built but it's been getting more complex. 

The introduction of fAegon and building up of the Ironborn/Dornish POVs has also hurt the pace of writing. 

Finally, he's still trying to fit it all into two books, while having just as many POVs and more story to tell than AFFC and ADWD.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a couple of thoughts on this subject.  One, I think there has been a lot of rewriting.  He has mentioned before that he writes something, follows the road so to speak, but doesn't like where it ends up and has to scrap it all.  I think this has happened to him on a few occasions.  It has already been mentioned that he admitted to regretting killing a character.  I am guessing there is a character that he has plans for but is in a situation that he can't figure out how to get them out of.  Or, he has finally figured it out, but it took awhile (he did say recently that writing has been going well)

My second thought goes back to his blog post in 2016.  He had thought that the book could be done by the end of 2015.  We are four years later.  For that wide of a gap, my guess there has been a major restructuring.  I think back on what happened in 2015.  The books and the tv show are two totally different mediums and in general, I avoid comparing.  But I think the decision to bring Tyrion to Meereen prior to events in the fighting pits was the right move.  I suspect GRRM felt the same.  He couldn't undo it, of course. But I think it depressed him, but has since led him to a larger restructuring.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I suspect that the problem (or one of the problems) is that GRRM simply introduced way too many characters and way too many stories and now he is trying to figure out what to do with them. I think that fAegon and Dorne are the biggest problems in this perspective, although I definitely can't say that the other stories are easily solvable. Dany's story is an obstacle too, I can't really imagine a way how to leave Meereen behind so it wouldn't feel wierd, rushed or stupid (like in the TV show). I suppose that GRRM has some of the major events planned but doesn't know how to get there.

Another problem is that he spends time doing other things than the books.

Edited by Nerevanin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/14/2019 at 10:31 AM, sifth said:

I don’t know, the first 3 books seem very well organized to me. They were complicated sure, but not overly complicated. The fact that he kept adding and adding new POV’s hurt things I feel and made the story less focused.

This sort of reminds me of the final two seasons of the Wire. There are so many elements at play I’m not sure how anyone can keep this focused.

The first three books were not well organized just for the fact that they were originally all supposed to be one book that ballooned out into first two books and then the three we now know.

And then there is the fact that the three first books apparently required a five year gap even though it wouldn't have worked given the ending of the third book.

And he needed to add more POVs. It is impossible to tell the story from just the POVs of Arya, Bran, Sansa, Jon, Daenerys and Tyrion. Impossible. Especially given the fact that Bran and Arya are both under the age of 10 and that Sansa, Jon and Daenerys are under the age of 15. Their age excludes them from adult conversations and adult activities that are necessary to the plot.

And as much as GRRM makes it his mission for Tyrion to know everyone and be everywhere, Tyrion can't carry all of that weight by himself.

The rise of the Dornish and Ironborn POVs also aren't the problem. The problem has more to do with the timing. Like I think if we had other Ironborn POVs in Clash (it would have made a lot more sense to have them start here) and the Dornish start to make a larger impact in Storm, I don't think anyone would have had a problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

The first three books were not well organized just for the fact that they were originally all supposed to be one book that ballooned out into first two books and then the three we now know.

And then there is the fact that the three first books apparently required a five year gap even though it wouldn't have worked given the ending of the third book.

And he needed to add more POVs. It is impossible to tell the story from just the POVs of Arya, Bran, Sansa, Jon, Daenerys and Tyrion. Impossible. Especially given the fact that Bran and Arya are both under the age of 10 and that Sansa, Jon and Daenerys are under the age of 15. Their age excludes them from adult conversations and adult activities that are necessary to the plot.

And as much as GRRM makes it his mission for Tyrion to know everyone and be everywhere, Tyrion can't carry all of that weight by himself.

The rise of the Dornish and Ironborn POVs also aren't the problem. The problem has more to do with the timing. Like I think if we had other Ironborn POVs in Clash (it would have made a lot more sense to have them start here) and the Dornish start to make a larger impact in Storm, I don't think anyone would have had a problem.

Arya was 9 when the books started so is around 12 now, whilst the other three are well over 15 by now. Also, what is being under 16 got to do with it. This is supposed to be based on middle ages, not 21st century, where there was no such thing as childhood, & people married really young. They were brought up as mini adults from birth. I hate having modern morals applied to all literature & art.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, zorkman said:

Arya was 9 when the books started so is around 12 now, whilst the other three are well over 15 by now. Also, what is being under 16 got to do with it. This is supposed to be based on middle ages, not 21st century, where there was no such thing as childhood, & people married really young. They were brought up as mini adults from birth. I hate having modern morals applied to all literature & art.

Under the age 16, you are not an adult. Therefore, you would not be allowed to even listen in on a war meeting held in Lord Tully's solar in Riverrun.

That is not modern morals. That is established in universe.

Arya is 9 when the books started; she is 11 at most now. The series started in year 298 and now we are in year 300.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/14/2019 at 10:15 PM, M.Alhazred said:

GRRM has way too many balls in the air here is the way I see it.

Not often is someone accused of having to much balls (lol) heh!

on a more serious note, think of each of the series characters as a fractal (albeit an imperfect one ) as the storyline progresses you get more and more splits, each needing to be manipulated properly so that it can be made into a nice sturdy rope.

 

in effect he needs to weave, and not split so much to make an effective storyline, no more gardening, now he needs to cull the less desirable plants and let the rest live.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, zorkman said:

Arya was 9 when the books started so is around 12 now, whilst the other three are well over 15 by now. Also, what is being under 16 got to do with it. This is supposed to be based on middle ages, not 21st century, where there was no such thing as childhood, & people married really young. They were brought up as mini adults from birth. I hate having modern morals applied to all literature & art.

Exactly, to seeit as it was meant to be seen we need to try to think as they thought

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎5‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 10:25 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Under the age 16, you are not an adult. Therefore, you would not be allowed to even listen in on a war meeting held in Lord Tully's solar in Riverrun.

That is not modern morals. That is established in universe.

Arya is 9 when the books started; she is 11 at most now. The series started in year 298 and now we are in year 300.

11-12. This still doesn't dispute the fact that Ayra is a cold blooded killer, but heaven forbid she gets involved in adult activities, it will be the end of the world. If you have a fantasy world or one based on an historical period then you should base story & plots on what would happen to people in those times & how they were judged, not having modern morals put onto them. It is like these people in UK saying 16 year olds should vote but woe betide them looking at 18 year old videos or buying cigarettes & drink, as they don't have the capacity to deal with these.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, zorkman said:

11-12. This still doesn't dispute the fact that Ayra is a cold blooded killer, but heaven forbid she gets involved in adult activities, it will be the end of the world. If you have a fantasy world or one based on an historical period then you should base story & plots on what would happen to people in those times & how they were judged, not having modern morals put onto them. It is like these people in UK saying 16 year olds should vote but woe betide them looking at 18 year old videos or buying cigarettes & drink, as they don't have the capacity to deal with these.

It's still not enough

Sansa, Jon, Tyrion, Bran, Daenerys and Arya

Jon is on the Wall, at the "end of the world," and Daenerys is in the far east...both of them are far away from the main action at the beginning and only slowly become more involved in the main action. Jon being modeled after the traditional female fantasy hero and Daenerys being modeled after the traditional male fantasy hero.

Bran's story revolves around dreams, magic, ancient histories and he is restricted to the North. Only at the end does he get more involved.

Sansa is the Disney princess locked in the tower turned on its head. Sansa gives us a lens into the deconstruction of the fantastical, happy-go-lucky aspects of the medieval world's knights in shining armor, damsels in distress, arranged marriages, elaborate tourneys and feasts, etc. and exchanging it for the grim reality of the situation. So that means Sansa is limited to castles and palaces where she is "locked up."

Arya is the Huckleberry Finn and the Scout Finch of the story, giving us a lens into the plight of the commonfolk from the eyes of a little girl lost far from home. Maybe a bit of Alice in Wonderland too as she goes farther and farther down the rabbit hole of poverty and violence.

That leaves Tyrion as the only one with true freedom of movement as he is the only full-fledged adult. Not only that he's male, rich and well-read with little responsibility. He's like what Quasimodo from Notre Dame would be if he was born into a rich family that didn't try to kill him or lock him up in a belltower.

George RR Martin wanted to tell an expansive story about the medieval era. All six of them are -- to a degree -- excluded from the spheres of religion, deep state politics, academics, dynastic war, the hashashins, etc.

You don't get a full picture. What you have is a story that's geared more towards high fantasy than political drama and the conflict between good and evil within the hearts of men.

You need adults like Catelyn, Sam, Cersei, Brienne, Davos, Ned and Jaime for that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×