Victor Newman Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 One of the questions raised by the ancient history of the NQ and her NK is why. Why did she not kill this man? After all he and his men defend the wall from her kind. Old Nan's theory says the Others are mankind's natural enemy. So why befriend him when she could have killed him and entered the north? The Others are hostile to human trespassers. They never bothered to give Gared and his flunky lord the chance to explain themselves. But they spare Craster for some reason. What's different about Craster? He sacrificed to them. The Others are hungry gods who demand sacrifice. The NQ was willing to live in peace as long as babies are sacrificed. I think that is the secret. The Kings of Winter were able to rule over the north, unmolested, for ten thousand years because they were doing the same thing. They were sacrificing babies to the Others. Gods aren't gods unless he has followers to worship him. No sacrifice can be greater than the sacrifice of the innocent and the pure. It's not even out of the question to assume the nobility of the north were all sacrificing to the Others long ago. Sacrificing innocent babies is not an admirable thing to do. And the story would take a strange twist if that is the solution to the problem of the Others. The return of blood sacrifice to appease the Others is the answer. How strange will that be? It's right up Martin's alley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaya Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 4 hours ago, Victor Newman said: The Others are hungry gods who demand sacrifice. The NQ was willing to live in peace as long as babies are sacrificed. sounds fun but where is this said so? can you give me a quote or reference from the books? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syl of Syl Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 15 hours ago, Victor Newman said: The Kings of Winter were able to rule over the north, unmolested, for ten thousand years because they were doing the same thing. This isn't really true. It was said I think in the world book that the Starks didn't solidify their rule over the North until right before the beginning of the arrival of the Andals in Westeros. Before that, they were consistently molested. Or fighting with their neighbors for supremacy. It's quite possible they had to deal with the Others every winter, before the construction of the Wall at least. If the Night's King's queen was real and was really one of the Others, this indicates that there were at least once female Others which runs contrary to the Craster evidence which seems to indicate that the Others are all male and have no way of reproducing on their own. I think it's more likely that she was not a real being but a symbolic stand-in for the idea that the Night's King was in league with the Others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gendarrion Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 16 hours ago, Victor Newman said: So why befriend him when she could have killed him and entered the north? might be because she fell in love with him, Others can think and speak, they have emotions. 16 hours ago, Victor Newman said: Sacrificing innocent babies is not an admirable thing to do. And the story would take a strange twist if that is the solution to the problem of the Others. The return of blood sacrifice to appease the Others is the answer. How strange will that be? It's right up Martin's alley. It will be really strange, Westeros is a civilized society, they ban Slavery, first night, incest and many more, even if they've been push in the desperate situations of their lives, they'll more likely to kill themselves than to give their children to Others, I think there's other solution for them, Diplomacy is one thing without involving human sacrifice, the other is war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonoNono Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 Could be she was a former lover of his. How she got the power she had, who knows, she might not have been a typical white walker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 18 hours ago, Victor Newman said: One of the questions raised by the ancient history of the NQ and her NK is why. Why did she not kill this man? After all he and his men defend the wall from her kind. Old Nan's theory says the Others are mankind's natural enemy. So why befriend him when she could have killed him and entered the north? Because history as told the in-world characters (and we readers) is not 100% true from either side. A Storm of Swords - Bran IV Bran wasn't so certain. The Nightfort had figured in some of Old Nan's scariest stories. It was here that Night's King had reigned, before his name was wiped from the memory of man. This was where the Rat Cook had served the Andal king his prince-and-bacon pie, where the seventy-nine sentinels stood their watch, where brave young Danny Flint had been raped and murdered. This was the castle where King Sherrit had called down his curse on the Andals of old, where the 'prentice boys had faced the thing that came in the night, where blind Symeon Star-Eyes had seen the hellhounds fighting. Mad Axe had once walked these yards and climbed these towers, butchering his brothers in the dark. All that had happened hundreds and thousands of years ago, to be sure, and some maybe never happened at all. Maester Luwin always said that Old Nan's stories shouldn't be swallowed whole. But once his uncle came to see Father, and Bran asked about the Nightfort. Benjen Stark never said the tales were true, but he never said they weren't; he only shrugged and said, "We left the Nightfort two hundred years ago," as if that was an answer. Honestly, GRRM has used this Night Queen archetype in a few past stories and they are all sadly misunderstood and even patronized throughout that story's history. Who or whatever the NQ character will be most likely is going to show us that this idea was twisted along the way from what we assume. She is most likely just a parable anyway. Quote The Others are hostile to human trespassers. Are they? Quote They never bothered to give Gared and his flunky lord the chance to explain themselves. Waymar shot first. He was an out-of-balance cocksure young lord with little experience who may have been correct about the temperature, but not about the Others and something be "off". His arrogance is a lesson for readers going forward. A Game of Thrones - Prologue They were gone. All the bodies were gone. "Gods!" he heard behind him. A sword slashed at a branch as Ser Waymar Royce gained the ridge. He stood there beside the sentinel, longsword in hand, his cloak billowing behind him as the wind came up, outlined nobly against the stars for all to see. The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor. Ser Waymar met him bravely. "Dance with me then." He lifted his sword high over his head, defiant. His hands trembled from the weight of it, or perhaps from the cold. Yet in that moment, Will thought, he was a boy no longer, but a man of the Night's Watch. Quote But they spare Craster for some reason. What's different about Craster? He sacrificed to them. Craster is a "godly" man, but to what gods? Are these gods the same as what we know the Others to be? Are the Others the same as the White Walkers, or are they something other than that? A Clash of Kings - Jon III "For the baby, not for me. If it's a girl, that's not so bad, she'll grow a few years and he'll marry her. But Nella says it's to be a boy, and she's had six and knows these things. He gives the boys to the gods. Come the white cold, he does, and of late it comes more often. That's why he started giving them sheep, even though he has a taste for mutton. Only now the sheep's gone too. Next it will be dogs, till . . ." She lowered her eyes and stroked her belly. "What gods?" Jon was remembering that they'd seen no boys in Craster's Keep, nor men either, save Craster himself. "The cold gods," she said. "The ones in the night. The white shadows." And Craster has been lying to his daughter-wives the whole time. A Clash of Kings - Jon III Mormont leaned forward. "Every village we have passed has been abandoned. Yours are the first living faces we've seen since we left the Wall. The people are gone . . . whether dead, fled, or taken, I could not say. The animals as well. Nothing is left. And earlier, we found the bodies of two of Ben Stark's rangers only a few leagues from the Wall. They were pale and cold, with black hands and black feet and wounds that did not bleed. Yet when we took them back to Castle Black they rose in the night and killed. One slew Ser Jaremy Rykker and the other came for me, which tells me that they remember some of what they knew when they lived, but there was no human mercy left in them." The woman's mouth hung open, a wet pink cave, but Craster only gave a snort. "We've had no such troubles here . . . and I'll thank you not to tell such evil tales under my roof. I'm a godly man, and the gods keep me safe. If wights come walking, I'll know how to send them back to their graves. Though I could use me a sharp new axe." He sent his wife scurrying with a slap on her leg and a shout of "More beer, and be quick about it." "No trouble from the dead," Jarmen Buckwell said, "but what of the living, my lord? What of your king?" You know who else is a godly man? Euron. The wives of free folk women, including Craster's daughter-wives, are named for flowers. Falia Flowers is being used as a sacrificial broodmare by Euron the same as Craster is with his offspring. A Feast for Crows - The Iron Captain "We shall have no king but from the kingsmoot." The Damphair stood. "No godless man—" "—may sit the Seastone Chair, aye." Euron glanced about the tent. "As it happens I have oft sat upon the Seastone Chair of late. It raises no objections." His smiling eye was glittering. "Who knows more of gods than I? Horse gods and fire gods, gods made of gold with gemstone eyes, gods carved of cedar wood, gods chiseled into mountains, gods of empty air . . . I know them all. I have seen their peoples garland them with flowers, and shed the blood of goats and bulls and children in their names. And I have heard the prayers, in half a hundred tongues. Cure my withered leg, make the maiden love me, grant me a healthy son. Save me, succor me, make me wealthy . . . protect me! Protect me from mine enemies, protect me from the darkness, protect me from the crabs inside my belly, from the horselords, from the slavers, from the sellswords at my door. Protect me from the Silence." He laughed. "Godless? Why, Aeron, I am the godliest man ever to raise sail! You serve one god, Damphair, but I have served ten thousand. From Ib to Asshai, when men see my sails, they pray." Quote The Others are hungry gods who demand sacrifice. In this story, the only hungry god that demands sacrifice is the fire god. Ser Mandon shouted, "The Mud Gate!" And they were off again. "King's Landing!" his men cried raggedly, and "Halfman! Halfman!" He wondered who had taught them that. Through the steel and padding of his helm, he heard anguished screams, the hungry crackle of flame, the shuddering of warhorns, and the brazen blast of trumpets. Fire was everywhere. Gods be good, no wonder the Hound was frightened. It's the flames he fears . . . But most came on. Behind them was only cold and death. Ahead was hope. They came on, clutching their scraps of wood until the time came to feed them to the flames. R'hllor was a jealous deity, ever hungry. So the new god devoured the corpse of the old, and cast gigantic shadows of Stannis and Melisandre upon the Wall, black against the ruddy red reflections on the ice. You can't be the Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born, he heard Robb say again. And the stone kings were growling at him with granite tongues. You do not belong here. This is not your place. When Jon closed his eyes he saw the heart tree, with its pale limbs, red leaves, and solemn face. The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said . . . but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman's hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods. Quote The NQ was willing to live in peace as long as babies are sacrificed. I think that is the secret. The Kings of Winter were able to rule over the north, unmolested, for ten thousand years because they were doing the same thing. They were sacrificing babies to the Others. There is nothing at all in the books that shows any of this. If there is and I have forgotten those book quotes, please correct me. Quote Gods aren't gods unless he has followers to worship him. Or, there is one force and those humans who wish to bend the will of other humans will carve out small sects of this power to make a claim of a god which creates a following. Cup of ice, cup of fire. It is up to the individual in how the they chose to use this special force/talent/magic/whatever. Quite possible there are no gods. Quote No sacrifice can be greater than the sacrifice of the innocent and the pure. Aren't we all born sinners? There probably is a greater sacrifice out there, but it is up to the individual to decide what that is. Quote It's not even out of the question to assume the nobility of the north were all sacrificing to the Others long ago. Book quotes would help. Not being snarky, but I really don't see this to be the case. Now, talk to me about gene mixing between humans and CotF, and the subsequent rivalry between the Red King Boltons and House Stark- jealous bastards w/out warg gene `vs` Stark wargs who did inherit the genes- now this is a subject that is tragically not discussed enough. Quote Sacrificing innocent babies is not an admirable thing to do. Agreed. To paraphrase Jon, what sort of monster would give a living child to the flames? Quote And the story would take a strange twist if that is the solution to the problem of the Others. The return of blood sacrifice to appease the Others is the answer. How strange will that be? It's right up Martin's alley. Explain how this is right up Martin's alley? I am still not seeing these supposed connections. What past examples do you have to compare to that this is right up his alley? I ask all of this seriously because this also happens to be a current subject a few book reading friends and myself are also discussing elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rondo Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 The people of north leave the old and the weak to the elements during hard times because of resource scarcity. It had to be worse for the wildlings and the other savages. The Others had no shortage of flesh donations. It's not as simple as handing your screaming baby to them. The night's king was a member of the Stark family and Craster is too. The Others have a blood connection to the Starks. King's blood is powerful and they held that status before Aegon came along. The Others need Stark blood. There is balance and if the Valyrians bonded with dragons, the Starks must have bonded with the Others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said: Explain how this is right up Martin's alley? I am still not seeing these supposed connections. What past examples do you have to compare to that this is right up his alley? Brandon Stark this was, Edrick Snowbeard's great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes. He took the Wolf's Den back, stripped the slavers naked, and gave them to the slaves he'd found chained up in the dungeons. It's said they hung their entrails in the branches of the heart tree, as an offering to the gods. The old gods, not these new ones from the south. Your Seven don't know winter, and winter don't know them." Davos could not argue with the truth of that. From what he had seen at Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, he did not care to know winter either. "What gods do you keep?" he asked the one-legged knight. "The old ones." When Ser Bartimus grinned, he looked just like a skull. "Me and mine were here before the Manderlys. Like as not, my own forebears strung those entrails through the tree." "I never knew that northmen made blood sacrifice to their heart trees." "There's much and more you southrons do not know about the north," Ser Bartimus replied. He was not wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: Brandon Stark this was, Edrick Snowbeard's great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes. He took the Wolf's Den back, stripped the slavers naked, and gave them to the slaves he'd found chained up in the dungeons. It's said they hung their entrails in the branches of the heart tree, as an offering to the gods. The old gods, not these new ones from the south. Your Seven don't know winter, and winter don't know them." Davos could not argue with the truth of that. From what he had seen at Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, he did not care to know winter either. "What gods do you keep?" he asked the one-legged knight. "The old ones." When Ser Bartimus grinned, he looked just like a skull. "Me and mine were here before the Manderlys. Like as not, my own forebears strung those entrails through the tree." "I never knew that northmen made blood sacrifice to their heart trees." "There's much and more you southrons do not know about the north," Ser Bartimus replied. He was not wrong. Never denied this happened, nor denied that northerners punished slavers, but, what gods are those? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said: Never denied this happened, nor denied that northerners punished slavers, but, what gods are those? The heart trees I guess. It doesnt mean theyre in league with Others, just a strange exchange Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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