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What were Tywin's plans for the succession of Casterly Rock?

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16 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Dude, we've been over this.

1. KG cant hold lands

2. Robb has to physically disinherit Sansa

Tywin happened to ignore that caveat. Who the hell are you to tell Tywin Lannister who can or cannot be his heir? What do you think Tywin thought was more important/powerful? Some vows or his will?

Robb disinherited Sansa Lannister because she was married to a Lannister. He could have just named Jon his heir while not disinheriting her. She is a girl, he is the king, and Jon is male and older than Sansa. As a legitimized Stark he would come before Bran, Rickon, Sansa, and Arya, anyway.

16 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol what? What is this a Sansa story? Such trivialities dont matter.

Tyrion is just a disgrace to any noble father of rank and title. He is ugly and a dwarf. Who cares that he is smart? Smart people don't inspire loyalty if they cannot fight and properly rule. And nobody gives a rat's ass if they are smart when they waddle about like a human caricature and basically look like a monster.

16 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Natural talents to weaponry? He was trained by some of the greatest warriors ever and wears a suit of armor that costs a castle.

Selmy notes that one of the fellows he trains in Meereen is the best natural swordsman he has met since Jaime Lannister. Jaime is a boy wonder, and there is something like a natural swordsman in Westeros. Selmy himself would have also been one such, considering he tried to fight in a tourney at ten.

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Historically speaking (real world) Tyrion was officially Tywins heir while Jamie is in Kingsguard. Succession laws were followed quite strictly and to go against them lord would have to put some effort in changing his heir. He either had to remove his heir from succession by setting him in a position where he can't inherit lands, for example Holy Order. In Westeros those options would be Citadel, Faith, Nights Watch or Kingsguard. Other option less common was to write some kind of document that changes heir which would be much less common. I think Cersei's succession proves that the same applies for Westeros. She was never named heir by Tywin and her heir is a Baratheon, yet nobody questions her succession. Nobles saw succession laws to be holy laws, that King was chosen by a God, so just changing heir was not often done. 

While Tywin always intended Jamie to succeed him it was apparent that while Jamie is a Kingsguard Tyrion is the heir. 

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I really don't see why people keep insisting that Jamie can't get the Rock if in the Kingsguard. Tywin and his brood don't care about rules, and Jamie pre-Brienne certainly don't give a crap about them. Add to this that, if I recall, Tyrion mentions that Jamie is pretty popular in the West and the fact that Robert tends to bow to what the Lannisters want; there really isn't any real obsticle for Jamie to inherit the Rock after Tywin.

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On 5/12/2019 at 11:12 PM, Lord Varys said:

Robb disinherited Sansa Lannister because she was married to a Lannister. He could have just named Jon his heir while not disinheriting her.

True. So lets assume the will does both. Now lets not assume about Jon. Would he accept Robbs will? (Which btw we're totally disregarding with Jaime) Maybe not, NW serve for life up until Robbs will, will the old bear and Jon be cool with that? Let's assume Robb assumes maybe. Thats why Sansa must be disinherited, to make some Royces day.

On 5/12/2019 at 11:12 PM, Lord Varys said:

Who the hell are you

Just a man, like you, who studys asoiaf.

We decipher the laws with the precedents available to us. When dealing with "green land" laws we have all 7 kingdoms of Westeros, save the iron islands, for the past 300 years(give or take sometimes) and their noble inhabitants.

The laws we have deciphered have been Robbs will, Stannis' resolve of the law and Randylls scheme of disinheriting Sam.

The precedents that are unavailable to us are dwarves or other "freaks" being barred from ruling or KG being dismissed (until very recently) for the sake of inheritance

On 5/12/2019 at 11:12 PM, Lord Varys said:

Tywin happened to ignore that caveat. Who the hell are you to tell Tywin Lannister who can or cannot be his heir? What do you think Tywin thought was more important/powerful? Some vows or his will?

Tywins heir will only come into fruition with Tywin dead. Tywin may ignore stuff when hes alive, but deceased, the whole world can ignore him.

Im not disagreeing that Tywin cant do whatever the fuck he wants; Just that making the executive decision to do nothing will not nullify Tyrions birthright

On 5/12/2019 at 11:12 PM, Lord Varys said:

Selmy notes that one of the fellows he trains in Meereen is the best natural swordsman he has met since Jaime Lannister. Jaime is a boy wonder, and there is something like a natural swordsman in Westeros. Selmy himself would have also been one such, considering he tried to fight in a tourney at ten.

The boy wonder is the (2nd) greatest thing to happen to Gotham. But despite his obvious skill hed be nothing without Bruce Wayne's money.

Think Rorge. He was a nobody, probably good with a sword but you wouldn't think so standing next to Jaqen. Then he got Sandors helmet and made the Riverlands bleed. Its all in the armor, welcome to medival warfare.

Again, I dont mean to sell Jaime short, just saying that his skill (well, not anymore) with the sword is akin to Tyrions with a scheme

On 5/12/2019 at 11:12 PM, Lord Varys said:

Tyrion is just a disgrace to any noble father of rank and title. 

Probably. Theyre an awful lot. Honestly I can't see Edmure being a bad (guy) father. But the rest of the lords, sure. 

On 5/12/2019 at 11:12 PM, Lord Varys said:

Smart people don't inspire loyalty if they cannot fight and properly rule.

Huh? acok, he rules the city properly and fights (some people think its silly that a dwarf could kill men at arms in Blackwater, but even a dwarf in Lannister armor is worth considerably more then a smallfolk man at arms, classic medival warfare). He does this so well that he inspires loyalty and defended the gate (to start with) from Stannis when brave men like Sandor couldn't.

On 5/12/2019 at 11:12 PM, Lord Varys said:

And nobody gives a rat's ass if they are smart when they waddle about like a human caricature and basically look like a monster.

Except for Bronn, Shagga, Timmit, Chella, Brown Ben, etc

 

22 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

; there really isn't any real obsticle for Jamie to inherit the Rock after Tywin.

The biggest (maybe only) is that Tywin never named him heir. Plots and schemes only work for the plotters and schemers, not for the silent and procrastinators

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16 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

True. So lets assume the will does both. Now lets not assume about Jon. Would he accept Robbs will? (Which btw we're totally disregarding with Jaime) Maybe not, NW serve for life up until Robbs will, will the old bear and Jon be cool with that? Let's assume Robb assumes maybe. Thats why Sansa must be disinherited, to make some Royces day.

And why do you think Jon would accept that his sister Sansa was disinherited?

And I certainly do recognize that it all depends on Jaime's willingness to succeed Tywin, of course. But if he did not and Tywin had finally understood that during his lifetime Tyrion would have still only been his heir if he had named him. Which he would have never done.

16 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

The laws we have deciphered have been Robbs will, Stannis' resolve of the law and Randylls scheme of disinheriting Sam.

Randyll Tarly's anointed heir was Samwell Tarly, though. He was his firstborn son and he only grew disgusted by him later when Sam grew up - and he only discarded him after he had a second son. Tyrion isn't Tywin's firstborn son and he never was his anointed heir. This is not the same situation.

16 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

The precedents that are unavailable to us are dwarves or other "freaks" being barred from ruling or KG being dismissed (until very recently) for the sake of inheritance.

Well, a lot of people don't give a damn about the maester vow in relation to succession. Which is comparable to the KG vows as well.

16 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tywins heir will only come into fruition with Tywin dead. Tywin may ignore stuff when hes alive, but deceased, the whole world can ignore him.

No, your heir is a guy during your lifetime in such a setting. When you die you have a person succeeding to your lordship. You only have an heir if you acknowledged him as such. Just think of cases where fathers die alongside their sons. Then somebody succeeds who was never anointed as heir - which Tyrion never wasn't. If he wanted to succeed to Casterly Rock he would have challenge any rivals that may come forth. And if Jaime declined we can be very certain that Cersei would have not declined. She would have ensured CR goes either to her or one of her children.

16 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Im not disagreeing that Tywin cant do whatever the fuck he wants; Just that making the executive decision to do nothing will not nullify Tyrions birthright.

Tyrion doesn't have a birthright as such since he isn't Tywin's oldest son. He doesn't claim being publicly acknowledged heir to CR by right of birth but by right of his older brother technically no longer being about to inherit.

Ned also treats Jaime as Tywin's heir, not Tyrion. He expects Jaime to inherit the Wardenship from his father. It isn't the same as the lordship, but it implies that Ned didn't expect Tyrion to ever become Warden of the West.

16 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

The boy wonder is the (2nd) greatest thing to happen to Gotham. But despite his obvious skill hed be nothing without Bruce Wayne's money.

Think Rorge. He was a nobody, probably good with a sword but you wouldn't think so standing next to Jaqen. Then he got Sandors helmet and made the Riverlands bleed. Its all in the armor, welcome to medival warfare.

But we have a ton of people who were able to make a good career as a sellsword or knight with pretty humble origins. Jaime most definitely would have been one of those. He would have been another Criston Cole.

16 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

. Huh? acok, he rules the city properly and fights (some people think its silly that a dwarf could kill men at arms in Blackwater, but even a dwarf in Lannister armor is worth considerably more then a smallfolk man at arms, classic medival warfare). He does this so well that he inspires loyalty and defended the gate (to start with) from Stannis when brave men like Sandor couldn't.

Tyrion is only Acting Hand. He has no power of his own but draws everything he is from his father. Quite literally here. His father made and eventually unmade him. Also, his pets only follow him because he promised them his father's gold, weapons, and armor - and his father made due on that. Even Bronn he can only bribe because his father grants him a pretty high allowance. But it is quite clear that Tyrion could never outbid either Cersei or Tywin himself no matter what he told Bronn.

Tyrion is also hated by the Kingslanders whereas Joffrey is loved. The people judge him on his looks, not his merits. I never said Tyrion wasn't courageous or anything. He is no coward. But he still isn't exactly a great fighter. He shames other people into being loyal by giving an example the others have to follow if they don't want to be seen as cowards. But that's not inspiring personal loyalty. It is a trick, manipulation. Jaime, on the other hand, is fervently loved by the West - or was loved until he became the Kingslayer. Cersei and her children are loved in a similar manner, by the way. Nobody loves the ugly dwarf.

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Ned also treats Jaime as Tywin's heir, not Tyrion. He expects Jaime to inherit the Wardenship from his father. It isn't the same as the lordship, but it implies that Ned didn't expect Tyrion to ever become Warden of the West.

Warden titles are granted by the King when a Warden dies. It is like a title of Kingshand or Master of Coin and not a hereditary title like Lord of Casterly Rock. Recent event with Cersei granting Warden of the West to Devan Lannister proves it. So I don't see how that is relevant. 

While Jamie is in Kingsguard he can't hold lands or marry so Tyrion is Tywins' official heir even if not proclaimed so, like Tommen is Joffreys' heir even though Joffrey never proclaims him to be (or Ned Brandons'). But I think it is right assessment that most people assumed Jamie would inherit the Rock and considered him unofficial heir, until he becomes official again by being dismissed from the Kingsguard.

26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody loves the ugly dwarf.

I do, but I'm dead I guess.

Edited by Tygett Lannister

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21 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Warden titles are granted by the King when a Warden dies. It is like a title of Kingshand or Master of Coin and not a hereditary title like Lord of Casterly Rock. Recent event with Cersei granting Warden of the West to Devan Lannister proves it. So I don't see how that is relevant. 

It is relevant because Ned actually tells Robert that Jaime will inherit the title 'Warden of the West' from Tywin after his death, apparently not knowing/thinking that the king could grant the title to somebody else. And neither does Robert. In fact, it seems to be highly unusual that Robert Arryn is not named Warden of the East.

21 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

While Jamie is in Kingsguard he can't hold lands or marry so Tyrion is Tywins' official heir even if not proclaimed so, like Tommen is Joffreys' heir even though Joffrey never proclaims him to be (or Ned Brandons'). But I think it is right assessment that most people assumed Jamie would inherit the Rock and considered him unofficial heir, until he becomes official again by being dismissed from the Kingsguard.

Tommen is Joffrey's presumptive heir, not his official heir. Joff is expected to marry and father legitimate sons of his own - those will then be formally anointed heirs. Tommen is basically just a placeholder. But unlike Tyrion he is treated as such a placeholder heir, as are all most younger sons and brothers of lords and kings.

Tywin doesn't seem to have an official or formal heir. And if Tyrion held such a place he would have been treated quite differently. The conversation in ASoS implies nobody ever asked Tywin Lannister who his heir was after Jaime joined the KG, and he himself never discussed the subject with anybody else.

Assuming a person is 'an official heir' when neither said heir nor the person he is supposed to be heir of are aware of that fact doesn't seem to make sense to me. We learn how important it is in this world to be treated as an heir to actually be seen as such. And Tyrion was never ever treated as Tywin's heir. Not even when he made him Acting Hand.

21 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

I do, but I'm dead I guess.

Well, nobody living in Westeros does seem to like him, no?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

The biggest (maybe only) is that Tywin never named him heir. Plots and schemes only work for the plotters and schemers, not for the silent and procrastinators

I am perfectly sure that Tywin named Jamie his heir before Jamie became a Kingsguard and never named another heir after it. Or people in Westersos, like Eddard Stark, are making shit up about Jamie taking the Rock after Tywin dies.

And really if someone else would be the technical heir, who is going to stand up to Jamie and say that he can't have the Rock? Tyrion, who loves Jamie? Robert, who bends to Lannisters every chance he gets? Grand Maeaster Pycelle, who never does anything that wouldn't be approved of by the Lannisters? Really, who is going to stop Jamie from taking the Rock if he wants it?

Edited by Lion of the West

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Tyrion would have still only been his heir if he had named him. Which he would have never done.

Yo, my mans, thats not the way the law works. Robert named Joffrey his heir, he wasn't, its Stannis. Rickard names Brandon his heir, with both dead the north legally went to Ned.

Ive been given you precedents (often in quotes) to back up my statement. Can you please do the same to disprove mine?

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Randyll Tarly's anointed heir was Samwell Tarly, though. He was his firstborn son and he only grew disgusted by him later when Sam grew up - and he only discarded him after he had a second son. Tyrion isn't Tywin's firstborn son and he never was his anointed heir. This is not the same situation.

No, but its a lord disinheriting his heir so I thought itd be somewhat applicable

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No, your heir is a guy during your lifetime in such a setting. When you die you have a person succeeding to your lordship. You only have an heir if you acknowledged him as such. 

 He doesn't claim being publicly acknowledged heir to CR by right of birth but by right of his older brother technically no longer being about to inherit.

Please explain to me, with citations, why your second paragraph is incorrect and id also like citations from the first one. 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, a lot of people don't give a damn about the maester vow in relation to succession. Which is comparable to the KG vows as well.

Eh. Very slightly comparable. There are only 7 kg, while enough grey rats to start a plague. If anything the NW orders are more comparable (very strict) or Dothraki Bloodriders (also strict lol)

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But we have a ton of people who were able to make a good career as a sellsword or knight with pretty humble origins. Jaime most definitely would have been one of those. He would have been another Criston Cole.

Criston Cole was no meer sellsword. Obviously he has own crazy youth and origin story, but thats a very rare occasion. Jaime was one of the 10 most entitled children in his country, and the rumor that Jaime is only in the KG for Aerys to slight Tywin is not without substance.

Think of Dunk paying his respect to the killer of Pennytrees firsy squire. The man is unbelievably grateful. Class structure is a thing, in real life and in asoiaf, and Jaime was born in the .1%

Would I guarantee Jaime wouldn't rise to a palce of honor if he wasnt Lannister? No, but I wouldn't bet on it. (Or any character really. Dunks not the only greatful man, Davos and that guard of the mountain or something that Petyr made in affc ring a bell)

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And why do you think Jon would accept that his sister Sansa was disinherited?

Good question! Idk. I doubt itll come up, I think Robbs Will will be brought up a different way. But maybe, Jon declined Winterfell for the old gods (that was my take at least) not for Sansa, then again he didnt know of Robbs will...

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody loves the ugly dwarf.

Firstly, who cares? That medival warfare we talked about, it makes sure that public opinion means zero. Like the attempt rape of Sansa by half of KL, vs Sandor and a big sword.

Secondly, he gets around;

 

I like you well enough, ugly little whoreson that you are . . . but if I fight your battle, I lose either way. Either the Mountain spills my guts, or I kill him and lose Stokeworth.

 

 

Lemore emerged on deck with the prince in tow. When she saw Tyrion, she rushed across the deck to hug him. "The Mother is merciful. We have prayed for you, Hugor."

 

 

"Thank you, my lord of Lannister." He pulled off his glove and offered his bare hand. "Friend."

Tyrion found himself oddly touched. "Most of my kin are bastards," he said with a wry smile, "but you're the first I've had to friend." He pulled a glove off with his teeth and clasped Snow by the hand, flesh against flesh.

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Jaime's always been Tywin's main plan. He never considered Tyrion or Cersei or some nephew. I know that Westeros has very specific rules, but we're talking about Tywin. He's the lord of the Westerlands and everybody's terrified of him. He could have named a random tavern boy as his heir and no one would have said "aye".

That's why I'm sure everybody knew Tywin's plan was Jaime, he only couldn't find a proper way and he was never going to even acknowledge another option because that would be admitting he was out of solutions. Tywin couldn't act about it because he didn't have much influence in King's Landing. Jon Arryn did and he wouldn't have allowed Tywin to step over the rules and traditions of the Kingsguard. And even if Tywin had asked Cersei herself to "go and talk with your husband", we know she wouldn't have done so.

Hence, Tywin probably spent 13 years saying "fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck" while pretending everything was ok.

It was when the war started and Arryn died that he realised he finally had a chance to hold power in King's Landing and influence the King in order to get back his son as heir. We don't know his thoughts but I'm sure he expected that Jaime could be dismissed after he lost his hand. I'm also sure that he expected that Tyrion's execution would work to his favour because people would realise he desperately needed an heir. We know Jaime would have disagree, but we also know Tywin is the kind of man to take him back to the Rock kicking and screaming.

Of course, he died so nothing happened.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is relevant because Ned actually tells Robert that Jaime will inherit the title 'Warden of the West' from Tywin after his death, apparently not knowing/thinking that the king could grant the title to somebody else. And neither does Robert. In fact, it seems to be highly unusual that Robert Arryn is not named Warden of the East.

Tommen is Joffrey's presumptive heir, not his official heir. Joff is expected to marry and father legitimate sons of his own - those will then be formally anointed heirs. Tommen is basically just a placeholder. But unlike Tyrion he is treated as such a placeholder heir, as are all most younger sons and brothers of lords and kings.

Tywin doesn't seem to have an official or formal heir. And if Tyrion held such a place he would have been treated quite differently. The conversation in ASoS implies nobody ever asked Tywin Lannister who his heir was after Jaime joined the KG, and he himself never discussed the subject with anybody else.

Assuming a person is 'an official heir' when neither said heir nor the person he is supposed to be heir of are aware of that fact doesn't seem to make sense to me. We learn how important it is in this world to be treated as an heir to actually be seen as such. And Tyrion was never ever treated as Tywin's heir. Not even when he made him Acting Hand.

Well, nobody living in Westeros does seem to like him, no?

Well Robert and Ned aren't the best when it comes to knowledge of the 7 Kingdoms laws or titles. Cersei doesn't seems to have problems naming Devan Warden of the West. 

Presumptive heir is still an official heir to me. Nobody was questioning Tommens succession to the Iron Throne (other then people that know about the incest), so it seems pretty official to me. 

Quite clearly Ned knew he is Brandons heir, as Brandon knew that Ned is his heir. Just non of them were really thinking much about it since they assumed Brandon would have a son to be his heir. Like Tyrion and Tywin assume Jamie will succeed Tywin after Tywin gets him out of the Kingsguard. The reason people are treated as an heir is to educate them properly and introduce them to the realm so they have a better start of the reign and more legitimacy, it is not something mandatory one needs to do. 

Edited by Tygett Lannister

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Jaime was named Warden of the East by Robert Baratheon after Jon Arryn died. Ned didn't like this as he also stood to inherit the Warden of the West title when Tywin died. 

If he can inherit/hold those titles, why not also Lord of Casterly Rock, though he'd probably have to name a castellan? Are we perhaps getting the books KG vows mixed up with the NW vows or the shows KG rules?

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2 hours ago, Tom8983 said:

Jaime was named Warden of the East by Robert Baratheon after Jon Arryn died. Ned didn't like this as he also stood to inherit the Warden of the West title when Tywin died. 

If he can inherit/hold those titles, why not also Lord of Casterly Rock, though he'd probably have to name a castellan? Are we perhaps getting the books KG vows mixed up with the NW vows or the shows KG rules?

Because Warden titles don't necessarily get inherited but are granted (like Kingshand), so a Kingsguard can hold them but cannot hold land when he is supposed to be at Kings side, stay single (means no possible son heir). It is rather odd to name someone that is stationed in the capital Warden of the East, but hey that's Robert. 

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The first answer was Jaime, if it fails, next in the line. For people who say that Tywin would have never let Tyrion inherit, it was after Tyrion brought a whore to court and threatened his nephew's well-being for a whore's life. Before that, Tywin was literally prepping Tyrion to inherit when Jaime was captured and there was a high chance he would die. I am honestly surprised that people forget about this major plot point which is literally the reason why Tyrion was acting as a Hand during a whole book.

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Warden of the West is a title of honour and duty, not ownership. That doesn't mean Jaime will "own" the Westerlands and rule them in the way Tywin does.

We have the case of Ryam Redwyine who was a Lord Commander and also Hand of the King, because the Hand is nothing but an honour title. So, you can have those kind of titles WHILE also being in the Kingsguard.

Being a Lord, though, includes going against many different vows of the KG, such as having heirs and hold properties.

 

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Tywin's unsolvable problem: estate planning.

I used to think it was unbelievable for someone so competent to leave Casterly in the lurch like this.   But that's greatness for you.  If there were no acceptable options for who would inherit the Rock, then Tywin was great enough to tell the whole universe to go F itself.  He didn't give in, didn't award it to the unworthy, and was larger than life even in death.   So, a lion sized crisis.  But maybe all the great houses will fail to carry on past this generation and Tywin's end of line antics will just be the cherry on top of a worldwide implosion.   I still say it goes to Tyrion, but I've apparently forgotten about how we lose the best characters in this series.

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On 5/12/2019 at 7:46 AM, pitboy12 said:

Tywin Lannister seems to be concerned quite a bit about his legacy, but he didn't really have a spare for Jaime. What were his plans for his succession? ASOIAF wiki's article on kevan says that Tywin intended to send her to Casterly Rock with a new husband, any ideas on who this could have been?

Jaime, always Jaime... somehow, some way...

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Posted (edited)

Tywin's primary heir is Jamie obviously. Problem with him being in the Kingsguard is not that Tywin can't release him from his vows, it could be done any time after Aerys death. Problem is that Jamie refuses to do so and without that Tywin can't do much.

I am pretty sure that if Jamie wouldn't work, Tywin would name Tommen his heir or second son of Willas and Cersei if they would have one. As for Tyrion he had pretty clear plan, he wanted him to make future lord of Winterfell with Sansa. It would resolve a situation and would be a way to mock the northerners.

As for naming issues. Well, it is not an issue at all. We should keep in mind that family name was not a thing in middle ages. It is later conception. In England no one cared that Henry II was actually of Angevin (first Angevin) dynasty. He was simply Henry II of England.

Family names are on the other hand important for Martin so he resolved this issue by characters changing them easly when needed and provided examples to that. Joffrey Lydden becoming a Lannister (is it a forshadowing of future Lannister succession?), and Leobald Tallhart suggestion that Beren Tallhart should be next lord Hornwood and that he should take Hornwood name for the house not to die out. So family name is not a problem. IIRC Martin never ever implemented any concerns about Rhaenyra's succession and possibility of Targaryen dynasty to end because of her Velaryon children. They also called themself 'true Targaryens'. I suppose that they would rule as Targaryens with quartered coat of arms or even as Velaryons. Important thing is that they were Rhaenyra's sons, not Laenor's (ekhm).

Edited by White26

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I'm pretty sure he never seriously considered anyone but Jaime.

Even up until his death (and he Jaime weren't on speaking terms), it probably never occurred to him that one of his children wouldn't ultimately do what he told them.

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