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What were Tywin's plans for the succession of Casterly Rock?

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Tywin Lannister seems to be concerned quite a bit about his legacy, but he didn't really have a spare for Jaime. What were his plans for his succession? ASOIAF wiki's article on kevan says that Tywin intended to send her to Casterly Rock with a new husband, any ideas on who this could have been?

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Posted (edited)

By her you mean Cersei? Tywin wants to marry Cersei to Willas Tyrell heir to Highgarden, meaning if Cersei takes the Rock her children would be Tyrells. 

If he wanted Cersei to marry someone with less importance that would allow for marriage where children take mothers dynasty there is still a problem that Tommen Baratheon is oldest living son of Cersei so he is still heir to the Casterly Rock. But considering he can't rule the Rock and Seven Kingdoms at the same time Rock could be given to future Cersei's children with Lannister name. And for who might be suitable for Cersei is some second or third child of a powerful family like Loras if he wasn't in the Kingsguard. 

But more likely Tywin wanted to get Jamie out of the Kingsguard which would make him heir again. He just ran out of time. If he had any say in succession after his death he would probably name Kevan heir. 

Edited by Tygett Lannister

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He planned it for Jaime only, he doesn't recognize Tyrion as his heir and he intended Cersei to be Lady of other castles and not Casterly Rock, he's probably planning of forcing Jaime out of Kingsguard before he die.

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I don't know about the Jaime plan. Jaime had been Kingsguard for about twenty years at this point. In all that time, Tywin didn't seem to have made much headway on his grand plan of releasing Jaime from his vows and having him inherit.

Tywin had to at least have a plan B for succession. Tyrion clearly was not favored even though he would have typically been the next in succession, but perhaps he always was plan B. Or perhaps Tywin initially planned to marry Myrcella to Lancel (or one of Kevan's other sons) thus creating a line of succession from his grandchild and his nephew. Perhaps he also figured that he'd have time to remarry. I think Tywin planned on living a lot longer than he did.

Also, Tywin was a super-ambitious fellow. The inheritance of Casterly Rock would have been secondary to ensuring one of his grandchildren inherit the Iron Throne. With Joffrey ruling the entire realm, it doesn't much matter what happens with Casterly Rock. He obviously wouldn't want any Reynes or Castameres to inherit it, but he had ensured that quite awhile ago. And he always had plenty of nephews to spare if need be.

 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, pitboy12 said:

Tywin Lannister seems to be concerned quite a bit about his legacy,

No more than the average Lord in Westeros, in the books at least. They are all concerned about the legacy of their Houses, about leaving it in a secure place and hopefully stronger than when they inherited it. Ned, Mace, Doran, Hoster are all on the same page as Tywin when it comes to this.

Quote

 

but he didn't really have a spare for Jaime.

Have you not seen the family tree? He had many spares. Many nephews, nieces and cousins to inherit the Westerlands.

Tyrek and Lancel were following in his (and his uncle Tion's) footsteps by paging/squiring for Royalty. This is a prestigious education for a noble in the middle ages.

Another nephew was a page at Casterly Rock, receiving his education from Tywin while clearly Daven, the current Warden of the West, and Damion, the current Castellan of the Rock, have had suitable enough educations that they are capable of leading.

Sons or daughters don't always inherit, when the Houses are thousands of years old it is the Name that matters, not whether the heir is a son, grandson, nephew or cousin of Tywin. There will have been many Lannister rulers who saw another branch inherit. It does not change their 'legacy'.

Jon Arryn was in the same boat before Robert's Rebellion. He was more than happy to at first allow his nephew to be his heir and later a niece married to a distant Arryn cousin. It was only after their deaths and the need to bring Hoster on the rebel side did he actually remarry. Before that him being succeeded by another branch was not a big issue.

Obviously Tywin wants Jaime to inherit. Not only is he is first born son but he actually has all the makings of a great medieval leader. He's a great warrior, a capable commander, fairly intelligent and commands the respect of the Westerland nobles. But having a preference for Jaime does not mean he has a problem with the other Lannister alternatives.

Quote

What were his plans for his succession?

Presumably it was either

  • Jaime. Robert owed Tywin millions, I imagine one day that debt would have been forgiven with Robert freeing Jaime of his vows.
  • Tyrion and his heirs had he gotten his act together, proved himself responsible and provided healthy heirs. It is only after Tywin learns that Tyrion has threatened the lives of his grandsons that he disinherits him (a pretty tame punishment).
  • Tommen, though he'd have to have adopted the Lannister name
  • A nephew

 

The point is Tywin is not stuck for an heir, as Cat mentions "Another nephew?" The Lannisters of Casterly Rock were a damnably large and fertile house". House Lannister has plenty of heirs.

 

 

Edited by Bernie Mac

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1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

  • Jaime. Robert owed Tywin millions, I imagine one day that debt would have been forgiven with Robert freeing Jaime of his vows.

Thats not a thing. Barri was the first KG dismissed in Westerosi history due to the creativity of Cersei. For Jaime to be dismissed would be unfathomable before Barri

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

  • Tyrion and his heirs had he gotten his act together, proved himself responsible and provided healthy heirs. It is only after Tywin learns that Tyrion has threatened the lives of his grandsons that he disinherits him (a pretty tame punishment).

Tywin says "never" to Tyrion owning the Rock. Im not sure about Tyrions heirs, but I assume its a dub for them as well. Also Tyrion wasnt disinherited because he threatened his nephew's, if anything it was for killing his mother and dating a whore.

However Tyrion was not disinherited. It was all talk, no laws were made to strip Tyrion of his birth right.

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

  • Tommen, though he'd have to have adopted the Lannister name

Does Harry Hardyng plan on changing his name? Regardless, Tommen is a Baratheon, an ancient and noble house that rivals Lannister, no reason to take his mothers surname. Hes also the heir to the Sunset Kingsoms despite the fact that hes not. If Tommen were to take on the Lannister name and office, itd only add to the ambiencece of shadyness and corruption thats been plaguing the Lannisters IT

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

  • A nephew

This seems the most likely as Daven was recently made warden of the west

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It always bothered me how Tywin let Jaime  serve15 years in the Kingsguard when he could have easily gotten him out of his mess after the Rebellion, regardless of what Jaime wanted as well.

It just doesn't fit Tywin's character, Jaime not being married with an heir at his age makes no sense.

*

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JAIME! Never Tyrion. Never. NEVER!

...

Tommen was an option while he was merely Joff's presumptive heir. Tywin intended to make him his ward to raise him at Casterly Rock. After that Kevan and his children. But that was as likely in Tywin's mind as forgiving the Crown's debts. That would never happen.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

However Tyrion was not disinherited. It was all talk, no laws were made to strip Tyrion of his birth right.

Tyrion was never acknowledge or named heir to Casterly Rock. Lords and kings name their heirs, they are just heirs because of their order of birth.

Tywin's eldest son was Jaime Lannister; he was named heir of Casterly Rock. And when Jaime became a KG Tywin continued to see and treat him as his heir, he never acknowledged that Jaime could not succeed him nor did he ever name or indicate that Tyrion was now his heir.

Claiming that Tyrion *became* Tywin's heir when Jaime joined the KG is basically the same as *claiming* that Aegon the Elder became the heir of Viserys I when he was born in 107 AC.

I most cases the eldest son is the acknowledged heir, but if there is no eldest son then a lord or king certainly can pick and choose because the only truly powerful legal principle in the succession department is that a man is followed by his firstborn. Anything else is much weaker. Does a brother come before a daughter? A nephew before a cousin? A third cousin before a second cousin once removed? We have no idea.

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One other possibility to consider is that Tywin may have preferred to leave the question of succession unclear. His father nearly brought House Lannister to ruin. Tywin himself may have had more respect for his uncle Jason who was the younger son (and also the father of Joanna), and seems to have been fiercer and more willful. He may want the question of succession to provide a source of ambition to bring out the best from his various cousins and nephews.

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2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Thats not a thing.

It's not a thing until it is a thing. Robert was king, he can do what he wants. Replacing a Kingsguard member is not something that most of the kingdom will care about. As long as there is not a chance the action will cause a rebellion then Robert could do what he pleased.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

Barri was the first KG dismissed in Westerosi history due to the creativity of Cersei.

No, he was not. There were the Kingsguard appointed by Aegon's III Regents who were dismissed by Aegon. One day they were in the KG, the next they were not.

A king can do as he pleased, he can create precedents. Cersei was hardly creative, she pensioned him off.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

For Jaime to be dismissed would be unfathomable before Barri

No, it would not. It's a case of convincing the King it was a good idea. The same king usurped the crown when there were others with better claims. He's open to making history.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tywin says "never" to Tyrion owning the Rock.

Only after the finds out he has threatened the lives of his grandsons. Being the Patriarch of House Lannister means protecting them, not threatening them over whores.

We'll never know if Tyrion could have jumped through enough hoops to convince his father he'd be a suitable heir but Tywin never made anyone else his heir nor did he write a will declaring Tyrion's rights to the Rock null and void.

Legally Tyrion was still the heir till he murdered his father. Tywin, a private conversation between him and Tyrion apart, had not done anything that changed the line of succession.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

Im not sure about Tyrions heirs, but I assume its a dub for them as well. Also Tyrion wasnt disinherited because he threatened his nephew's,

Yeah, he was. It's right there in the chapter.

 

 
"My whorehouse?" The dawn broke; Tyrion understood all at once where this bile had come from. He ground his teeth together and said, "Cersei told you about Alayaya."
"Is that her name? I confess, I cannot remember the names of all your whores. Who was the one you married as a boy?"
"Tysha." He spat out the answer, defiant.
"And that camp follower on the Green Fork?"
"Why do you care?" he asked, unwilling even to speak Shae's name in his presence.
"I don't. No more than I care if they live or die."
"It was you who had Yaya whipped." It was not a question.
"Your sister told me of your threats against my grandsons." Lord Tywin's voice was colder than ice. "Did she lie?"
Tyrion would not deny it. "I made threats, yes. To keep Alayaya safe. So the Kettleblacks would not misuse her."
"To save a whore's virtue, you threatened your own House, your own kin? Is that the way of it?"
"You were the one who taught me that a good threat is often more telling than a blow. Not that Joffrey hasn't tempted me sore a few hundred times. If you're so anxious to whip people, start with him. But Tommen . . . why would I harm Tommen? He's a good lad, and mine own blood."
"As was your mother." Lord Tywin rose abruptly, to tower over his dwarf son. "Go back to your bed, Tyrion, and speak to me no more of your rights to Casterly Rock. You shall have your reward, but it shall be one I deem appropriate to your service and station. And make no mistake—this was the last time I will suffer you to bring shame onto House Lannister. You are done with whores. The next one I find in your bed, I'll hang."
 
Tyrion understands why Tywin is so angry. Tytos almost ruined the Lannisters by allowing his paramour, a whore in Tywin's eyes, to come before the good of the House and the Westerlands. Tyrion by threatening his own nephews over a whore was repeating, only much worse, the mistakes of Tytos. He was ill suited to rule.
 
It is the only reason? Probably not, but at no point in the story both before and after this scene does Tyrion's disinheritance be brought up. Tyrion threatening his nephews is a major reason for it.

 

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Does Harry Hardyng plan on changing his name?

It seems so. His shield now is stripped in four, two of the quarters are the sigil of House Arryn, one of House Waynwood and one of House Hardyng. He's already playing up his Arryn lineage to Robin's annoyance.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

 

Regardless, Tommen is a Baratheon, an ancient and noble house that rivals Lannister,

It doesn't, it's 300 years old. But that's not really the point, its a smoother transition if he adopts the Lannister name to take control of the Westerlands.

And its kind of common sense. The ruler of the Westerlands is already hugely powerful, him having a strong claim to the throne is a recipe for disaster for future generations.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

Hes also the heir to the Sunset Kingsoms despite the fact that hes not.

?

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

If Tommen were to take on the Lannister name and office, itd only add to the ambiencece of shadyness and corruption thats been plaguing the Lannisters IT

Hardly. If Joffrey was king with heirs of his own Tommen embracing the Lannister name is actually good for the Crown. It secures Tommen and his heir's seat of power from his Lannister cousins in the West and it secures Joffrey and his heirs from potential threats from other sons and grandsons of Robert Baratheon with the military power to topple the king.

 

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4 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

We'll never know if Tyrion could have jumped through enough hoops to convince his father he'd be a suitable heir but Tywin never made anyone else his heir nor did he write a will declaring Tyrion's rights to the Rock null and void.

Legally Tyrion was still the heir till he murdered his father. Tywin, a private conversation between him and Tyrion apart, had not done anything that changed the line of succession.

But Tyrion was never Tywin's heir. That is the reason why he demands to be publicly named Tywin's heir. He should have been Tywin's heir since Jaime joined the KG but he was not. He was never heir to Casterly Rock. If he had been, there would have been no reason to ask Tywin to publicly anoint/acknowledge him as his heir. Their conversation would then have been about Tywin not loving/cherishing Tyrion. But it wasn't. It was about public legal acts.

Tywin's heir was his son Jaime. If Jaime had ignored that fact after Tywin's death - or Robert/Cersei had not allowed him to succeed to the Rock, anyway - then Tywin Lannister would have died without an acknowledged heir, meaning that the various descendants of Lord Tytos would have been forced to settle the issue themselves - with the help of the Crown, of course - like the Arryns had to do after the death of Lady Jeyne.

Tyrion could have put forth a claim, but he is an ugly dwarf who once married a peasant and was publicly ridiculed by his lord father throughout his life. He doesn't have the standing to push his uncle, his aunt, or his various cousins aside - and most definitely not his own sister, the queen (and her children). He doesn't have allies, he doesn't have lands, and he doesn't have any incomes aside from the allowance his father grants him.

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6 hours ago, Gendarrion said:

He planned it for Jaime only, he doesn't recognize Tyrion as his heir and he intended Cersei to be Lady of other castles and not Casterly Rock, he's probably planning of forcing Jaime out of Kingsguard before he die.

This. The initial attempts occurred. Once he married Cersei off Jamie would be easier to deal with.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I most cases the eldest son is the acknowledged heir, but if there is no eldest son then a lord or king certainly can pick and choose because the only truly powerful legal principle in the succession department is that a man is followed by his firstborn. Anything else is much weaker. Does a brother come before a daughter? A nephew before a cousin? A third cousin before a second cousin once removed? We have no idea.

No dude. Everyone knows the law

Quote

If Joffrey is the Kingslayer's get—"

"—your brother is the lawful heir."

"While he lives," Renly admitted. "Though it's a fool's law, wouldn't you agree? 

Just like Aegon has a better claim then Dany and Sansa had a better claim then Jon.

1 hour ago, Syl of Syl said:

One other possibility to consider is that Tywin may have preferred to leave the question of succession unclear. His father nearly brought House Lannister to ruin. Tywin himself may have had more respect for his uncle Jason who was the younger son (and also the father of Joanna), and seems to have been fiercer and more willful. He may want the question of succession to provide a source of ambition to bring out the best from his various cousins and nephews.

Its funny because the last horse that hed want to win was the one he fueled with the most ambition

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1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

No dude. Everyone knows the law.

Obviously nobody in the Reach and the Stormlands give a damn about 'the law', no? A law nobody cares about is at best some sort of guideline. Or do you think Renly, Mace, and their followers all saw themselves as vile traitors and criminals because they followed Renly? I don't think so...

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

Just like Aegon has a better claim then Dany and Sansa had a better claim then Jon.

This is by no means clear. For one, none of those claims have been put forward at this point. We have to wait and see how people strong those claims are in the eyes of various people should they ever be put forth.

But the difference to the Jaime/Tyrion case is that nobody ever treated Tyrion even as Tywin's presumptive heir. This never happened. Nobody ever acknowledged that he even had a claim. More importantly, Jaime never died. He is still around and he never formally gave up his claim to Casterly Rock, did he? Nor did Tywin ever declare that Jaime was no longer his heir.

Just because some dude is a member of some order doesn't mean he can no longer be seen as heir. After all, didn't Robb want to name Jon Snow his heir despite the fact that he had taken the black? Didn't people want Maester Aemon become king despite his vows? Didn't even Jaehaerys I ask his son, Archmaester Vaegon, to succeed to his throne?

And it is not that the ugly dwarf is the kind of lordly material material you want to see as your liege. Tyrion is a Lannister of Casterly Rock, but he is not the kind of person the average lord or knight would want to swear fealty to. For all his cleverness Tyrion was never more than the court jester of his father. All the power and status he ever had he acquired with his father's gold and name.

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1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

It's not a thing until it is a thing. Robert was king, he can do what he wants. Replacing a Kingsguard member is not something that most of the kingdom will care about. As long as there is not a chance the action will cause a rebellion then Robert could do what he pleased.

No, he was not. There were the Kingsguard appointed by Aegon's III Regents who were dismissed by Aegon. One day they were in the KG, the next they were not.

A king can do as he pleased, he can create precedents. Cersei was hardly creative, she pensioned him off.

No, it would not. It's a case of convincing the King it was a good idea. The same king usurped the crown when there were others with better claims. He's open to making history.

Cersei came up with the concept. Regents cant make KG, only kings like Joff can

Quote

"You cannot serve in the Kingsguard without a sword hand - "

"I can," he interrupted. "And I will. There's precedent. I'll look in the White Book and find it, if you like. Crippled or whole, a knight of the Kingsguard serves for life."

"Cersei ended that when she replaced Ser Barristan on grounds of age. A suitable gift to the Faith will persuade the High Septon to release you from your vows. Your sister was foolish to dismiss Selmy, admittedly, but now that she has opened the gates - "

Robert could have invented the concept. He didnt. He also could have invented breastplate stretchers.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

It is the only reason? Probably not, but at no point in the story both before and after this scene does Tyrion's disinheritance be brought up. Tyrion threatening his nephews is a major reason for it.

But in that scene Tywin tells Tyrion why, its for his whoring and Joanna. Theres no mention of threatening Tommen or Tytos in a negative light

Quote

"Why?" he made himself ask, though he knew he would rue the question.

"You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse."

 

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

It seems so. His shield now is stripped in four, two of the quarters are the sigil of House Arryn, one of House Waynwood and one of House Hardyng. He's already playing up his Arryn lineage to Robin's annoyance.

Joff did that. Jon told Arya she could do it to. Thats not the same as abandoning your fathers name. 

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29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Obviously nobody in the Reach and the Stormlands give a damn about 'the law', no? A law nobody cares about is at best some sort of guideline. Or do you think Renly, Mace, and their followers all saw themselves as vile traitors and criminals because they followed Renly? I don't think so...

Yea, sure. What do you think they saw themselves as? 

Quote

Renly shrugged. "The Targaryens called Robert usurper. He seemed to be able to bear the shame. So shall I."

 

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

After all, didn't Robb want to name Jon Snow his heir despite the fact that he had taken the black? Didn't people want Maester Aemon become king despite his vows? Didn't even Jaehaerys I ask his son, Archmaester Vaegon, to succeed to his throne?

Yea man. And Robb did something about it. Tywin and these Targs didnt.

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

For all his cleverness Tyrion was never more than the court jester of his father. All the power and status he ever had he acquired with his father's gold and name.

Name one character thats not true for

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5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea man. And Robb did something about it. Tywin and these Targs didnt.

Tywin did something. He never named Tyrion his heir. His heir remained Jaime, just as Rhaenyra remained Viserys I's heir after Aegon and his siblings were born.

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Name one character thats not true for

Pretty much any other Lannister of Casterly Rock, I'd think. Men who were actually able to earn their keep and bring honor to their house by doing what a Lannister is supposed to do - become a great knight, make a great marriage, and charm the world with their good looks.

Jaime didn't need father's gold or father's name to show the world what he was. His physical beauty, his physical strength, and his natural talent to master medieval weaponry made him his own man. Yes, he was also a Lannister of Casterly Rock, but with his looks and his innate talents he would have also found his way in some fashion had he been born in a less privileged position (not a slave or peasant in the middle of nowhere, of course, but say an average Dothraki or the son of a petty lord or even some steward - think of Criston Cole).

One should also keep in mind that no house in Westeros seems to have a dwarf or other disabled lord (meaning disabled from birth, of course), strongly implying that such people were never allowed to rise to a lordship, much less a throne.

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4 hours ago, PirateVergo said:

It always bothered me how Tywin let Jaime  serve15 years in the Kingsguard when he could have easily gotten him out of his mess after the Rebellion, regardless of what Jaime wanted as well.

 

I doubt he has a say on this matter since he come so late in rebel cause, he's not one of major rebels in the war, it's Tully, Stark, Arryn and Baratheon, Jon and Ned are arguing if Jaime should take the black or remain in KG and Tywin is also in the subject for killing Rhaegar's family so he doesn't have that much influence to major rebel lords, to force Jaime out of KG, he'll have to take the throne by himself.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Tywin did something. He never named Tyrion his heir. His heir remained Jaime, just as Rhaenyra remained Viserys I's heir after Aegon and his siblings were born.

Dude, we've been over this.

1. KG cant hold lands

2. Robb has to physically disinherit Sansa

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Pretty much any other Lannister of Casterly Rock, I'd think. Men who were actually able to earn their keep and bring honor to their house by doing what a Lannister is supposed to do - become a great knight, make a great marriage, and charm the world with their good looks.

Lol what? What is this a Sansa story? Such trivialities dont matter

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jaime didn't need father's gold or father's name to show the world what he was. His physical beauty, his physical strength, and his natural talent to master medieval weaponry made him his own man. Yes, he was also a Lannister of Casterly Rock, but with his looks and his innate talents he would have also found his way in some fashion had he been born in a less privileged position (not a slave or peasant in the middle of nowhere, of course, but say an average Dothraki or the son of a petty lord or even some steward - think of Criston Cole).

Natural talents to weaponry? He was trained by some of the greatest warriors ever and wears a suit of armor that costs a castle.

Jaime only became KG because of his father, im not saying hes totally without merit just not anymore then Tyrion. Tyrions prooven himself knowledgeable to Aemon and Haldon. He did a great job of acting as Hand and saved KL from Stannis. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

One should also keep in mind that no house in Westeros seems to have a dwarf or other disabled lord (meaning disabled from birth, of course), strongly implying that such people were never allowed to rise to a lordship, much less a throne.

Thats never been a thing. If it was im sure Tyrion would have known about it

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