[Spoilers] Episode 805 Discussion

[divica]

1 minute ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I still want to know why they didn’t all just hang out at Winterfell while a conveniently available Faceless Assassin snuck into King’s Landing and offed Cersei? Million lives saved. Boom!

Because danny had to become mad and alone...

[Red Dragon10]

3 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

It means that the raven messages he sent out to the lords of Westeros proclaiming Jon not Dany the Targaryen heir can still be compared with his signet ring for authenticity even after his death by dragonfire.

Ahhhh....gotcha. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

Another fail by the D&D. Stannis also sent letters by Raven. To every lord in Westeros. Predictably no one believed him. Why would they then believe Varys the Spymaster of all people?

The mechanism for the reveal of Jon’s identity will be different, and far more powerful in the books.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Free Northman Reborn

[nara]

42 minutes ago, SeanF said:

You may still get your wish.

Except now, killing the child would have no purpose for the plot.

[Bradam]

i'm hoping for a Qyenton Tarrintino ending now.  Jon stabs Dany, Greyworm stabs Jon, Arya stabs Greyworm,  Tyrion stabs Arya, Davos stabs Tyrion,  Dany chucks a dagger at Davos face while falling to her death.. boom everyone dead. 

[Caligula_K3]

I loved this episode. It was an incredible choice to not give us the triumphant climactic battle; to turn this into a horrible, tragic, awful siege and slaughterhouse, in which there are no good guys. The episode completely nailed the themes of the series; this is 100% Martin's ending, done great justice by D&D and Sapochnik (whose directing was masterful). Even the moments of triumph, like Cleganebowl's ending, are tinged with sadness and regret.

I give it a 9/10; I take off a point because Dany's transition to this level of murderous tyrant could have used another episode to marinate, and because even though I loved Jamie and Cersei's ending, there was a way of getting there that showed off both sides of Jamie's character. Even having a few lines of extra dialogue with Tyrion, with both brothers aiming to stop their respective queens from enacting bloodshed, would have helped.

Overall though, this was a masterpiece, and pretty much everything that makes this series so special distilled into one episode. A nice corrective after the White Walkers stuff petered out.

[BlackLightning]

14 minutes ago, Caligula_K3 said:

I loved this episode. It was an incredible choice to not give us the triumphant climactic battle; to turn this into a horrible, tragic, awful siege and slaughterhouse, in which there are no good guys. The episode completely nailed the themes of the series; this is 100% Martin's ending, done great justice by D&D and Sapochnik (whose directing was masterful). Even the moments of triumph, like Cleganebowl's ending, are tinged with sadness and regret.

I give it a 9/10; I take off a point because Dany's transition to this level of murderous tyrant could have used another episode to marinate, and because even though I loved Jamie and Cersei's ending, there was a way of getting there that showed off both sides of Jamie's character. Even having a few lines of extra dialogue with Tyrion, with both brothers aiming to stop their respective queens from enacting bloodshed, would have helped.

Overall though, this was a masterpiece, and pretty much everything that makes this series so special distilled into one episode. A nice corrective after the White Walkers stuff petered out.

A masterpiece through and through. A nice corrective after the White Walkers stuff petered out.

Of course.

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

The Dornish war sounds as though it was almost genocidal.

A tad hyperbolic no?

[Gala]

1 hour ago, Rory Snow said:

 

Originally I asked... Just a few little nagging thoughts i had about Varys.. why did Varys take off his rings when he got 'arrested'? Was there some significance to the rings? Who was he writing to? Does he have yet another co-conspiritor?

 

Except the letter was detailing Jon's origin and existence. That information came to Varys indirectly from Sansa so they'd be no reason to write it if the note was going to her. There has to be someone else.

Need to rewatch for details, didn't pay that much attention.

[Raksha 2014]

4 hours ago, Calaryion said:

Is it any different to Aegon the Conqueror’s victory? 

Didn't Aegon spare the lords who surrendered to him, and their troops and people?  Dany clearly heard the bells, knew that they signified surrender, and didn't care.

[OldGimletEye]

3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And to this point-causing innocents to die in response to another crimes is not controversial in Westeros. Think of Theon or the hostages Book Jon takes. Neither Ned or Book Jon is really evil but they would cut a child they’ve taken hostage’s throat if the child’s parents decided to rebel or assist in a rebellion. The main problem here with Daenerys’ is unlike those potential  killings, her’s was entirely pointless.

Bullshit.

I'm pretty sure that murdering innocents for no reason is viewed badly in Westeros. Think of Ned's reaction to hearing about Gregor and his crew in the Riverlands. Or Ned's refusal to murder Dany.

[TNTW]

If I hadn't read every available book a half dozen times, and watched every episode a half dozen times; if I wasn't so emotionally invested in so many characters, I would be loving this season. It's entertaining. 

[BlackLightning]

Someone in another thread brought up an important point about the bells

11 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

 

Davos' first line.

Yes ... GRRM wrote this script back in Season 2.

 

Thank you D&D for that super epic long moment of everyone hoping the bells would ring into King's Landing's official surrender. Way to keep it consistent.

 

[alinoris]

My 2 cents about a few things.

In GOT there are some subtle hints of what will happen in the future, starting from Hodor always saying "Hodor"....we have learned much later what it meant ^^

Many, many fans complain about Jon /Aegon doing nothing smart/heroic/significant....the phrase "You know nothing, Jon Snow" hinted to that: he is a good person, he got a kind heart, but that doesn't make him a hero, or a genius, or a strategist...in fact he is a good, but not an exceptional fighter, he is a bad general/military leader (remember the Battle of the Bastards, for instance), he has no clue about how politics and ruling work, he is naive (Dany knew what Sansa would have done, once learned about Jon's true identity, he didn't, because..."he knows nothing".
He may be Aegon Targaryen, but he actually is and will remain Jon Snow, who knows nothing (until the truth is smashed on his face) and would be happy with Tormund, beyond the Wall, living a simple and free life.

About Dany: her vision in the House of the Undying was a huge spoiler (also for the final episode, I guess ^^): the half destroyed throne room covered in snow (...or ashes? ^^) where she is so close to the iron throne, but she can't touch it (we see the tips and especially the pummels of some of the swords)...that is, you won't get it, Dany ^^ Then she walks outside the gate of Castle Black through the Wall and reaches a tent where Khal Drogo and her son Rhaego are waiting for her (hint: the "North" will kill her).

Then, the mother (or the father) of all spoilers (I know...no news for many fans): Ramsey saying "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention..." ^^

Dany's father, Aerys II, at first ruled benevolently...then succumbed to madness and Dany is "closing the circle": Jamie killed Aerys because he wanted to burn everyone in King's Landing with wildfire (and in fact we see also wildfire, together with dragon fire, in ep 8x5). Jamie was serving in the Kingsguard at that time, he was supposed to defend the king, no matter his decisions, because he made an oath (in fact Ser Barristan Selmy, Ned Stark, men of honor, and everyone else despise him for that (because he didn't tell anyone why he killed the king...and from that moment his "corruption" started).
Jamie was supposed to die with Aerys II and he dies when the King's daughter realizes his father's evil plan, years later (circle closed, as I wrote before).

Yes, I agree Dany's descent into madness is a bit too quick in the show, but there were hints: his brother was a piece of s**t, but do you remember her face and her words while he was burning? Did she look sane there? (I suggest you guys to go rewatching that scene: the "seeds" of the Mad Queen were already there).
The Masters crucified the slaves, she crucifies the Masters.
She burns the Tarlys, who were war prisoners, not "traitors"...you burn prisoners on the battle field because they don't bend the knee? It's what Sam tells Jon: would u do that?
She starts to see treason and traitors everywhere (sometimes with good reason, sometimes not) and the deaths of Rhaegal and Missandei (one of the last few she trusted blindly) make her flip.
An eye for an eye often makes you become exactly what you wanted to fight. There are a lot of examples in our history: just think to the Holy Inquisition, which was established to fight the evil...and it became the evil! Dany has become a (mad) tyrant now...too bad, but that's it ^^
Yes, again...it seems too rushed (even if, what happens in minutes on screen, can require days or months in the show's timeline) but consider that: if Varys would have spotted gradual signs of madness in her, don't you think he would have her killed or poisoned long before, even not knowing about Jon's true identity? ^^

That said, it wasn't a perfect episode.
Tyrion's persistence in trying to save Cersei's life is just...out of place. 
Ok, he did it for Jamie and to save his child, but still, after everything Cersei did, including sending Bronn to kill both of them...seriously?.
Just free Jaime to repay your debt and let him go to do whatever he wants, but don't keep trying to personally save your murderous sister, come on!
You killed you father and Cersei is even worse than him!
Then...Drogon destroys everything too easily.
Again...Rhaegal was ambushed, they were flying slowly, etc., the scorpions can't be moved so quickly to follow a dragon flying close and at high speed, or if it attacks directly from above (they have a limited elevation)...but still everything seemed too easy, even if Drogon is bigger and stronger than his dead brothers.
So...not perfect, yes, I agree...but rating it with a 1 (or 2, or 3...etc) is utterly unfair (imho): writing is just a part of what should be considered when voting for an episode and, to me, it wasn't so bad as many ppl think, here and not only here.

Sorry for the long post.

 

Edited May 13, 2019 by alinoris

[OldGimletEye]

5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

This is just a straw man. His literal argument is that show Dany’s action is ridiculous because there’s no real reason given to it. Far from attempting to “justify” it, he’s clearly condemning it as stupid. If Book Daenerys did the same thing for the same reasons it’d also be absurd. If she did it for a military objectives she’d be acting in alignment with a typical conqueror. Worthy of as much moral outrage you’d grant to Napelon, or Alexzander. 

It is? Because it wasn't remotely clear what his argument was before he said Dany wouldn't do the same thing in the books. 

5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 Depending upon her reasons she could deserve more than those typically waging war to become monarch. If her reasons where like the ones here which seem utterly pointless and important for the shock value. But  she did it for more “practical” reasons it could mean she simply deserves as much condemnation as most of others clawing there way to rule in her setting. To where shes choosing to burnout the lives of thousands in KL because it would aid her in her pursuit for her ambitions and/or her quest for vegence. Honestly, typical and seen as valid reasons for conducting war in her setting. “Minimizing death” isn’t found to be a very high priority in this type of medieval setting. If it was, in real life, we wouldn’t frequently hear of armies flinging the diseased dead in the holding of their enemies. A plague is indiscriminate, and it could/will result in the deaths of primarily civilians. Plenty of innocents did die, were mutilated, and brutalized in Robb’s rebellion. Hell he sees a boy basically lose his leg in one of his battles and his response and only commentary on it is “they killed my father” when pushed on it by Talisa. And never comments

You do realize of course she had no good reason to go on the rampage she did in the show. And if she acts similarly in the books, she very well deserves to be condemned for it. Her actions in the show wasn't just one of negligence or callousness toward the death of innocents. Nor was it merely a failure to exercise reasonable command responsibility according to our RW norms. She intentionally carried it out herself, when she didn't have any good reason too. She went out of her way to inflict death and loss of life.  Even in the word of Westeros,  that goes beyond the pale. And she doesn't deserved to be excused for that.

Edited May 13, 2019 by OldGimletEye

[TNTW]

I have always been Team Jon. I always just wanted him to be happy in the end. But I don't understand why so many who feel the same seem to dislike Dany so much. He obviously loved her, but just could not get past incest. Understandable. But even I got irritated with him this episode. The honorable fool really does need to learn to lie sometimes. I believe his rejection of her was the proverbial straw. Mass destruction may have been avoided if he had played that better. He should have seen that she was on the edge and reacted accordingly. But that's not Jon. Sigh.

[OldGimletEye]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Dany burning KL would be basically her Harrenhal. Did Harrenhal damage Aegon the Conqueror's reputation? I don't think so, actually.

Personally I think Aegon was an asshole.

But if Dany were to burn KL, after her forces had clearly defeated the enemy forces, that would make her an asshole too. I'm not going to let you get away with making assertions that all destruction, no matter the particular circumstances in play, is basically okay. Even if it's something Aegon shithead allegedly did 300 years ago.

Edited May 13, 2019 by OldGimletEye

[BlackLightning]

51 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

A tad hyperbolic no?

Not really.

Aegon and Visenya burned every town, holdfast, farm and castle in Dorne at least twice (excluding Sunspear and the Shadow City) after Rhaenys was killed...

[the tower of albion]

I had a thought how they could of handled this if they had played things out differently. Going back to s7 Dany arrives at Dragonstone and with the Dornish and Tyrells sets about laying seige to Kings Landing. One reason or another Missendie and  Olena are captured by the Crown lands and the whole execution thing which triggers Dany to lay waste to Kings Landing occurs. She decides she will rule through fear. Ravens are sent. Enter Jon Snow arriving from the North not to bend the knee as demanded but to tell of the threat of the others. He sees the appalling devastation that Dany and her three Dragons have wrought but puts it aside because there are greater concerns afoot. They think her the man queen but they need her. Dany aggrees to go North to fight the others (she doesn't believe in them but it will allow her to entrench her forces beyond the neck) During this march Dany decides Jon will be her chosen consort. The threat from beyond the wall is devasting and Dany realises what her true purpose is and her ruthless streak comes in handy when sending her forces to face this fearfull onslaught. Night King is destroyed - Varys whispers learns of Jons truth and Dany position feels threatend by this King in the North she triggers another act of violence that forces Jon to realise he must make a counter claim for the throne. Yadda Yadda Yadda Bloody battle Dany dies a flawed heroine.

[Varysblackfyre321]

37 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Bullshit.

I'm pretty sure that murdering innocents for no reason is viewed badly in Westeros. Think of Ned's reaction to hearing about Gregor and his crew in the Riverlands. Or Ned's refusal to murder Dany.

Yeah didn’t say that. I gave you a reason that’s generally accepted by Westeroes as good enough reason for kings, and lords, etc to kill innocents. To punish the innocent person’s kin or loved one who is doing something they see as wrong and to deter others from acting out as well. Innocents taken hostage like Theon or the wildling children book Jon took, far from simply being collateral damage, are killed, through really no fault of their own. 

32 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

It is? Because it wasn't remotely clear what his argument was before he said Dany wouldn't do the same thing in the books

Yes. He did repeatedly through saying he thought it was dumb for the writers to have Daenerys do this for no real reason.He literally said GRRM wouldn’t write a character doing something for such stupid reasons in book in the post you quoted and accused him of trying to defend show Daenerys’ idiotic massacre. 

Lv”Which is why George could never even write a character doing shit like that. I mean, even Victarion Greyjoy wouldn't do shit like that. Yes, he would drown a ship full of people if they serve no purpose, but he would never burn down a city and the inhabitants of a city he actually wants to conquer and rule.”

32 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

You do realize of course she had no good reason to go on the rampage she did in the show.

Oh my god yes! Like is me saying it was pointless not enough of a hint that I thought the move wasn’t good? Where are you getting I’m saying she did the right thing here? Stop strawmannirg me.

32 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

And if she acts similary in the books, she very well deserves to be condemned for it.

As much as most conquerors, if she does for some grander goal or because  it'd be more seemingly the most pragmatic way to get the throne. Then she’d be acting like a typical conqueror and acting more in alignment with the mores of her caste.

More condemnation if there is no real reason behind the action.

 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Varysblackfyre321