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[Spoilers] Episode 805 Discussion

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5 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

That's what happens when a city is sacked.

It's what they do.

Basically, they were following Grey Worm's lead.

Don't forget what the Northmen (and the Valemen too) had suffered due to Lannister rule. Between Ned Stark's capture and the slaughter of his household, the Battle of the Camps, the Battle of Whispering Wood, the Red Wedding, Bolton rule which was sponsored by the and the more recent abandonment to the White Walkers, they've taken unnecessary loss after unnecessary loss. The thirst for revenge against the Lannisters is probably what keeps them going.

No one is surprised it was burnt to the ground.

We're surprised at the slapshod, half-baked writing job that caused it to burn to the ground.

I'm talking about the people who are surprised in these live chats that Dany burnt KL to the ground. They're all up in arms about it. lol.

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4 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Don't forget what the Northmen (and the Valemen too) had suffered due to Lannister rule. Between Ned Stark's capture and the slaughter of his household, the Battle of the Camps, the Battle of Whispering Wood, the Red Wedding, Bolton rule which was sponsored by the and the more recent abandonment to the White Walkers, they've taken unnecessary loss after unnecessary loss. The thirst for revenge against the Lannisters is probably what keeps them going.

The wildlings I can understand, and of course the Dothraki. It's not their country. But it's the Northmen's country. Some of them might loot, but there's no reason for them to go on an extreme mass murder of an entire city. When Robb Stark led them they never did that or showed any tendency in that direction.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

They are filthy liars. But I don't have issue with Dany burning KL. She can and should do it ... if there is a proper reason for that. There is none in this show.

If that happened in the books it would be harsh, but it would be essentially just emulating the Conqueror's grand deeds. KL would just be another Harrenhal. Surely there was many a servant or child in Harrenhal which wasn't there because he or she was a die-hard loyalist of Black Harren. Yet in war innocents die.

If there is ever a scenario where thousands of people stand with a person like Cersei - or actually Cersei - in a compatible scenario then by the standards of George's shitty world - and also by the Hitler and Churchill's rationale on bombing civilian population centers - this wouldn't even be a war crime.

We wont know that until A Dream of Spring is out and at this point who knows if that will ever happen. This whole episode just made me hate Dany and leaves me feeling disgusted inside, which I imagine is the point of GRRM's chapter of this in my minds eye right now. A strong and complicated woman, who believes in helping other turned into a mad woman, because she lost too many people she trusted and cared about.

I mean you're asking a mad lady to have a proper reason to do anything? That's like asking why grass is green, lol

Edited by sifth

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Just now, Jarl Halstein said:

The wildlings I can understand, and of course the Dothraki. It's not their country. But it's the Northmen's country. Some of them might loot, but there's no reason for them to go on an extreme mass murder of an entire city. When Robb Stark led them they never did that or showed any tendency in that direction.

That's not strictly true, Jaime and Brienne encountered Robbs men on the road that were killing and raping women

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18 minutes ago, Ilissa said:

Do not lie to yourself. They promised a common ending with the books. This is it. Mad Queen burns the King's Landing. It's terrible, but it's true.

I really don't want to read the other two books. 
I so regret that many years ago I bought the first book. I would never do that if I knew the end.

 

Difference is that in the books it is properly built up for a long time that she will be a Mad Queen in the end. In the show they decided to whitewash her character in earlier seasons & then let her turn evil in the end for no good reason & without proper build up. All for the sake of "shocking twist" & "subverting expectation". 

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7 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

No one is surprised it was burnt to the ground.

We're surprised at the slapshod, half-baked writing job that caused it to burn to the ground.

 

my thoughts too. i actually think they have set up the "mad queen" angle throughout the shows history. but they completely failed to stick the landing.

 

when she was surgicially decimating the fleet and kings landing army, i actually thought they were gonna pull a surprise "not the mad queen" thing. she was showing she learned from her dragons dying, changing elevation to counter the " really big crossbows." blowing the wall out from behind, everything. it was a tactical domination.

 

then the bells rang, they gave up, and NOW she decides to be all mad queen, after its won? meh.

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2 minutes ago, Ilissa said:

Of course it's about love. It has always been obvious.

How? Not trying to be difficult--I'm really curious.

GRRM establishes exactly who Dany's attracted to. It's not someone like Jon.

2 minutes ago, Ilissa said:

Read about bride of fire prophecy. And the show confirmed it. Now he will kill her, as Azor killed Nyssa.

I do think they are retrofitting Nissa Nissa into the story.

Though what Jon's supposed to do with it . . . not sure. I have theories, but they'd all be really crappy if true.

2 minutes ago, Ilissa said:

It is absolutely far-fetched argument.

But. . . how so if it's based on who Dany's attracted to? Martin's been showing us this from the beginning. And being consistent throughout the novels.

Why bother with all of that?

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18 minutes ago, The One Who Kneels said:

Which frankly just compounds the stupid because realistically the people of King's Landing (and most every lord in Westeros for that matter) should've been rioting against Cersei from the moment she blew up the Sept and usurped the throne. They didn't because the writers didn't want them to. 

I'm not saying it's fair, but it's her justification..

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24 minutes ago, Kaguya said:

Could have at least had Cersei assist with using her wildfire. 

They could have demonstrated that both queens are two sides of the same coin 

Ah, but she most certainly did! Didn't you see the green wildfire explosions?

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3 minutes ago, sifth said:

We wont know that until A Dream of Spring is out and at this point who knows if that will ever happen. This whole episode just made me hate Dany and leaves me feeling disgusted inside, which I imagine is the point of GRRM's chapter of this in my minds eye right now. A strong and complicated woman, who believes in helping other turned into a mad woman, because she lost too many people she trusted and cared about.

I mean you're asking a mad lady to have a proper reason to do anything? That's like asking why grass is green, lol

Even the Mad King had reasons for his actions. And he was actually pretty much what we would call a paranoid schizophrenic with a weirdo thing for fire.

We can know what's nonsense because we do have common sense and we know how those characters are written - and they are simply not even remotely written in this manner.

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Just now, taliefer said:

 

my thoughts too. i actually think they have set up the "mad queen" angle throughout the shows history. but they completely failed to stick the landing.

 

when she was surgicially decimating the fleet and kings landing army, i actually thought they were gonna pull a surprise "not the mad queen" thing. she was showing she learned from her dragons dying, changing elevation to counter the " really big crossbows." blowing the wall out from behind, everything. it was a tactical domination.

 

then the bells rang, they gave up, and NOW she decides to be all mad queen, after its won? meh.

They set her up as ruthless with a slight foreshadowing that she may end up being paranoid and cruel like her father but to have her going bonkers in the space of a couple of episodes and going against everything she has ever stood for is horrendous. The show writers are a joke, they butchered this material

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3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I'm not saying it's fair, but it's her justification..

That's fine but my point is if you want to use that as her justification then the only reason this justification itself exists is because of more stupid writing. 

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10 minutes ago, Jarl Halstein said:

They just needed to give her a reason, but it was a bad one. She has ruled people, she should know the masses far better than this. Back in Essos they weren't always easy for her to control. Remember when she executed one of her loyal followers because he had killed a nobleman or two. She executed him in public and the people screamed in anger, and then they and the nobility hissed at each other.

So Dany knows that people will not always do exactly what she wants them to do - and she still doesn't kill them.

Really, if you have to lead a large group of people, as Dany has done, you get some perspective. She was always a good person, and there's no way a good person who has gained perspective from ruling would say "The masses in that city are garbage because they haven't revolted and thrown themselves on the Lannister swords on my behalf yet."

The lesson she took was "Let them hate me, so long as they fear me."

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Even the Mad King had reasons for his actions. And he was actually pretty much what we would call a paranoid schizophrenic with a weirdo thing for fire.

We can know what's nonsense because we do have common sense and we know how those characters are written - and they are simply not even remotely written in this manner.

Alright, now explain Ramsay's madness to me. He's a guy who enjoyed taking people apart just for fun. I personally don't see a whole lot of reasoning in that.

Edited by sifth

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4 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Ah, but she most certainly did! Didn't you see the green wildfire explosions?

Did we see her give the order? No. It was most likely detonated by Drogons flames. 

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2 minutes ago, darksellsword said:

They set her up as ruthless with a slight foreshadowing that she may end up being paranoid and cruel like her father but to have her going bonkers in the space of a couple of episodes and going against everything she has ever stood for is horrendous. The show writers are a joke, they butchered this material

 

they showed her enjoying burning people alive and feeding them to her dragons in past seasons. they were just bad people, so it was overlooked.

 

i agree they butchered it tho. sadly i think if they had just given themselves a normal 10 episode season for 7 and 8, i think they could have done a better job. probably still woulda been not great overall, but this need to just get to the finish is the main reason for everything being as bad as it is imo.

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22 minutes ago, zed said:

Yeah, it just didn't make any sense. There wasn't even another moment like Missandei's death to explain her snapping.

 

It made some sense.  They really should have set it up with Dany betraying more insecurity and pent-up anger in last season and this one but there was some justification.  Dany lost too many people that she cared for deeply and trusted, the newer people she had trusted were withdrawing from her, and trying to be reasonable and civilized had cost her one of her two precious remaining "children" (possibly both, since Viserion was lost on the mission to bring a wight that would make Cersei see reason in the matter of the imminent danger of the walkers and wights).  Jorah had died saving her life.  Rhaegal had been killed by Cersei's ally.  Missandei had been murdered before Dany's eyes by Cersei during a parley (and her last word was Dracarys).  Jon, who Dany loved and trusted, told the secret of his superior claim to 'her' throne to his family after she begged him to keep it secret; and Jon's sister betrayed that secret to Dany's trusted advisor Tyrion, who told Varys.  Dany was convinced that Varys betrayed her (he was, in this episode, but I think all he'd done in the last episode was talk inconclusively with Tyrion).  Then, when Dany reached out for physical comfort with Jon, he rejected her advances while respecting her as his queen.  

I'm not sure if Dany was clinically insane, but she seemed very upset when the bells rang to signal surrender; as if she could not stand the thought of it.  I think she made the decision then that she was tired of being reasonable and civilized; that she was going to Dracarys the h*ll out of King's Landing, and drown Cersei and her city in fire and blood.

I doubt that Dany will survive the next episode; the only question is who will kill her? And will she kill Tyrion first if she realizes he sprung Jaime?

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4 minutes ago, darksellsword said:

They set her up as ruthless with a slight foreshadowing that she may end up being paranoid and cruel like her father but to have her going bonkers in the space of a couple of episodes and going against everything she has ever stood for is horrendous. The show writers are a joke, they butchered this material

Bonkers, or simply cruel and terrible?

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

The lesson she took was "Let them hate me, so long as they fear me."

 

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53 minutes ago, robasp2 said:

Even I was not convinced by Sandor's speech.

Wonder how Arya suddenly had a change of plans.

The one thing in the episode that had a logical, not to mention hopeful, explanation, and you’re complaining?

i through it was the best thing in the episode by far. Sandor came far enough to save Arya from a path of misery, and she came far enough to let him. 

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