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[Spoilers] Episode 805 Discussion

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11 minutes ago, darksellsword said:

If someones personality changes overnight to the point where they were appalled by the rape and murder of women and children to randomly start burning a city filled with women and children after the city has surrendered. yeah I'd say that is a sign of someone that has severe mental problems.

It's not been an overnight change.  This is a person who has burned and crucified her enemies from way back.  She's concluded that the inhabitants of Westeros will never love her, so she'll make them fear her.

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1 minute ago, petahertz said:

In defense of Dany, she's come to Westeros with the single goal of taking the Iron Throne. However, ever since arriving, she's been distracted with bad advise. She's lost her fleet, lost a dragon in the North, wasted time taking Casterly Rock for no real purpose, and lost her closest advisers and the bulk of her army defending Winterfell. After saving humanity, she was shown no real appreciation. Her advisers started plotting against her, and people seem to prefer Jon to take the throne. Losing trust of everyone seems to be pretty rational. So when she hears the bells, does it mean victory or a trap and yet another miscalculation? Was it Cercei surrendering or just some people ringing the bells? Does she think Tyrion is really on her side, or just trying to save his family? I think she just had enough and decided to follow the original plan and end it conclusively, although ruthlessly. 

She fulfilled what she saw in her dream. 

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1 minute ago, fairwarging said:

Their scenes together reminded me an awful lot of Jack's last scene in Titanic. It kind of makes sense that they would die together but it makes his moments with Brienne pretty pointless. 

I think I would have been happier if they had closed off Jamie and Brienne's story with the knighting.

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1 minute ago, Timett sonof Timett is God said:

wow Dany was way worse than Cersie ever could have dreamed of being.

I guess my expectations were subverted. . . /s

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2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It's not been an overnight change.  This is a person who has burned and crucified her enemies from way back.  She's concluded that the inhabitants of Westeros will never love her, so she'll make them fear her.

She crucified the masters that ordered the crucifixion of hundreds of children, you can't take these details out of context, there is a huge contrast to what she has done in the past to slaughtering thousands of innocent people.

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I don't even know what to think anymore.

Part of me wants to hold out hope that things will be different in the books, but that seems to just be denial on my part (I guess I'm in that stage of grief, eh).

I know that the dragon has always been an aspect of Dany, but I always believed she would ultimately reject it.  Guess I was wrong on that count too.  It's not like her turnaround is entirely unbelievable.  We see that she was pushed to the point where she felt like she could only gain loyalty through fear since love was unobtainable for her.  But I don't quite see why she would burn down all of King's Landing, the Red Keep would have been sufficient to show that she shows her enemies no mercy.  And would have been enough to turn Jon, Tyrion, and Arya against her.

It's strange how each episode since The Long Night makes the one before it seem better.  I guess a good thing about this episode is that there is only one left.  Another good thing is that it is making me rethink purchasing Winds of Winter day one like I had intended.  Is that a good thing?  I don't know anymore.

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Just a few little nagging thoughts i had about Varys.. why did Varys take off his rings when he got 'arrested'? Was there some significance to the rings? Who was he writing to? Does he have yet another co-conspiritor?

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2 minutes ago, darksellsword said:

She crucified the masters that ordered the crucifixion of hundreds of children, you can't take these details out of context, there is a huge contrast to what she has done in the past to slaughtering thousands of innocent people.

Innocent people have died horribly at her hands previously (eg Hizdahr's father, possibly the noble who was fed to Drogon) along with people who had some justification (eg Mirri Maz Duur, Randyll and Dickon Tarly).  She knew that loads of Smallfolk would die to fulfill her ambitions (hence her speech to the Dothraki about tearing down the stone houses in Season 6). Time and again, she's been talked out of razing cities to the ground.  Her cruelty and ruthlessness have been hiding in plain sight since Season 1.

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33 minutes ago, sifth said:

Alright, now explain Ramsay's madness to me. He's a guy who enjoyed taking people apart just for fun. I personally don't see a whole lot of reasoning in that.

But Ramsay is not a POV. What is the point of reading a story about bad genes? It is not interesting. Dany come such a long way just for bad blood in her veins decide her fate.

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2 hours ago, divica said:

They don t have to shot drogon burning the city during an hour. That is just boring.

And danny has no reason to want to burn inocente children! come on… Not even mad danny would do that!

she just did.

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1 minute ago, SeanF said:

Innocent people have died horribly at her hands previously (eg Hizdahr's father, possibly the noble who was fed to Drogon) along with people who had some justification (eg Mirri Maz Duur, Randyll and Dickon Tarly).  She knew that loads of Smallfolk would die to fulfill her ambitions (hence her speech to the Dothraki about tearing down the stone houses in Season 6). Time and again, she's been talked out of razing cities to the ground.  Her cruelty and ruthlessness have been hiding in plain sight since Season 1.

Hizdahrs father was innocent because Hizdahr said he was?His argument was that his father was one of the masters but he decried the crucifixions as a crime. So Dany was supposed to allow for the people that were involved in that barbaric slaughter that were just going along with it following orders, that is ridiculous. Do you think the masters allowed the children to say anything in their defence before they nailed them to the mile markers? Randyll Tarley denounced Daenerys as a foreign invader and not his Queen, literally any ruler in the history of westeros would have executed them for that stance.

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2 hours ago, Mystical said:

How is Jon even still a candidate to anyone for the throne? He is complicit in everything that happened here. He bend the knee to Dany even though he didn't have to. He constantly re-affirmed that Dany is their Queen and she shits gold because he's so freaking spineless. He dragged the North into the throne fight so the North also committed these atrocities.

How, just how is this guy in any way, shape or form an acceptable candidate for any throne?

he's not, Sansa is.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

If that happened in the books it would be harsh, but it would be essentially just emulating the Conqueror's grand deeds. KL would just be another Harrenhal. Surely there was many a servant or child in Harrenhal which wasn't there because he or she was a die-hard loyalist of Black Harren. Yet in war innocents die.

If there is ever a scenario where thousands of people stand with a person like Cersei - or actually Cersei - in a compatible scenario then by the standards of George's shitty world - and also by the Hitler and Churchill's rationale on bombing civilian population centers - this wouldn't even be a war crime.

Let's be clear about this. Yes, innocents and civilians die in war. But, it's not enough to just say that, and then hand wave a commanders responsibility to minimize those deaths.

What Dany did in the show was engage in the deliberate or reckless killing of innocents that had nothing to do with military necessity. She went way, way, beyond what was necessary to take KL.

If she does the same in the books it would be more than just "harsh". And she would rightly be deserving of criticism for that.

And as far comparing situation to the strategic bombing campaigns of WW2.  Those bombing campaigns have often been the subject of controversy for causing more damage than what was necessary. In the worst case, you have stuff like Dresden, which was completely monstrous and had little military justification.

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2 hours ago, Danelle said:

It it it is..... I can't explain it. Jaime had always been my favourite character,  his death was.... I mean the prophecy is not meant to be taken literally but this.... A shame, just a shame.

I thought it was beautiful.

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Posted (edited)

Now I hate Martin, as I have not hated any writer in my life. Does he think it is cool to turn the main character into a villain? No, it is not cool. I think Martin is a sadist. Create such a beautiful heroic character and destroy it.

 

 

Edited by Ilissa

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Just now, Ilissa said:

Now I hate Martin, as I have not hated any writer in my life. Does he think it is cool to turn the main character into a villain? No, that's not cool. I think Martin is a sadist. Create such a beautiful heroic character and destroy it.

 

 

I think this could actually be quite powerful if handled correctly which, needless to say, D & D did not.

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8 minutes ago, Ilissa said:

Now I hate Martin, as I have not hated any writer in my life. Does he think it is cool to turn the main character into a villain? No, that's not cool. I think Martin is a sadist. Create such a beautiful heroic character and destroy it.

 

 

What makes you think that GRRM will follow the exact same path? I recall an interview a couple of years ago when he said that books and tv series have same endings but the path they follow is different.

I mean think of how different minor characters such as Euron and Missandei are in the show and yet how great and different their impact on both books and show.

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