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[Spoilers] Episode 805 Discussion

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23 minutes ago, Danelle said:

After all, how many children did Scarlett O'Hara have? 

 

Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn. 

I wondered so many times why not a single one of the journalists tried to reply with this - the quotation is from the film only, not the original text from the novel; it would have been both tongue-in-cheek and a meta opener for the GoT/ASoIaF conundrum we are facing now : what is the journey (the path) if not to be mirrored by the end? 

I don't think Daenerys will be the mad queen but I do think she won't escape the legacy of her truly mentally damaged father and brother and while not crazy she will experience the bias of those around her : bias through superstition, fatalism, distrust, fear and perhaps most dangerous of all - being foreign to Westeros .

As for the narrative, it may very well be that Dany's coin of "madness" and greatness will continue to spin in perpetuity, never landing on the ground, becoming part of the legend and mythology just like her dragons. 

Jon seems to be poised to leave Westeros to the Westerosi, curtail the supernatural threat(s), following his resurrection turning out to be a very sombre figure trying to do the best for the common good as hard as this sounds. Heartbroken. 

At this point I just want to send a shout-out to my Bloodraven who knows Targaryen glory is coming to an end.

 

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Posted (edited)

I’m glad the hound got his chance to push the mountain into the fire this time, even if it meant his own death.

would have loved to have seen Cersei and Jamie die by throwing themselves out a tower window - just like he did to Bran. 

Edited by Missyskates

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4 hours ago, petahertz said:

I love when I watch an episode that leaves me stunned and thinking that was the greatest TV episode in history of television, and then I come here and read all the comments about what rubbish it was. :) 

Hey, no one claims you can't be stunned by rubbish. I have been hugely entertained by seeing, for example, absolutely clueless gamers try to play a videogame and the like.

 

Doesn't change the fact that it is rubbish, though. But if you enjoy it, more power to you!

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

Did anyone find the fight between Jamie and Euron funny? Even before Euron's famous last comment, I was laughing. Then his smile and announcing as he dies, I killed Jamie Lannister was too much. Battle of the stupids. Euron is a great pirate but no more.

For me it was a waste of time. 

I would have loved to hear (instead of that) a finale Cersei’s speech, a monologue, some words... letting her go like that.. without nothing memorable, it’s a shame imo. 

Edited by lalt

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Posted (edited)

Also, was the footage of the dragon flying over Kings Landing part of Bran’s visions from way back? 

Edited by Missyskates

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Well at least story isn't complete cringe now, with incest baby going crazy. But logic kept failing.

Why is there golden company with sweatpants in front of the wall looking like budget Unsullied when they are supposed to be knights.

Why does dragon fire just explode stone walls, it is supposed to be hot not have insane force. Aegon didn't take Harrenhall in a day with 3 dragons.

Arya has some high fire resistance stats. She also transforms back into a scared child after Sandor says a few words. She pretends to be horrified by what she see in the city when she happily baked people into pies, please. 

Why does it looks like common people were storing dragonfire under their roofs? 

What kind of Spymaster is writing letters to entire realm in his office and confronts Jon and just tells him to rebel (not to mention Jon doesn't even acts surprised that Vayrs knows about his parents)  Sneak level 100. 

D&D: 'Euron kinda forgot he has hundreds of scorpions and not just one.'

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8 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

And her troops are attacking their prisoners who gave up their weapons.

And massacred and raped the smallfolk who were just trying to escape from dragonfire. 

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I just have to say...

I loved Dany in this episode. Go Dany!  evil laugh

I usually find her boring, but I thought she rocked in this episode. I agree that the build up could have and should have been a lot better. But after listening to "The Dragon Demands" on Youtube for a long time, I didn't really have high expectations for this season. 

I just sincerely love the idea of a vengeful beautiful mad queen on a dragon raining fire on a large city out of heart break.

I wish the build up had been better, and I wish there was a whole season left to explore this wild, crazy person trying to make it as a ruler. She did her bad act of the ages, time for a bad ass redemption arc!

But alas, it seems inevitable that they're gong to kill her next episode...

I guess I just wish the show had different producers/writers. 

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I am full of smart ass comments on this episode.

Jamie killed Cersei with kindness.

The dumbest Lannister killed Cersei. The smartest Lannister helped.

In the end the Lannister boys tried to save Cersei. I guess this is consistency.

I am mulling this over.

Dany had a temper tantrum. Burn them all!

When Arya saves, people die. It is only when Arya kills that people live.

Frankenstein was killed by his monster.

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6 hours ago, mcbigski said:

Only in proportion to the needs of plot.

I got the impression that their strength was related to Dany’s feelings. Here, she’s furious, so Drogon’s flames are powerful. In the previous episode she is victorious and complacent, and Rhaegal and Drogon are weak.

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5 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

Let's be clear about this. Yes, innocents and civilians die in war. But, it's not enough to just say that, and then hand wave a commanders responsibility to minimize those deaths.

I honestly don't think any of George's character ever tried to minimize deaths in their military campaigns.

5 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

What Dany did in the show was engage in the deliberate or reckless killing of innocents that had nothing to do with military necessity. She went way, way, beyond what was necessary to take KL.

Which is why George could never even write a character doing shit like that. I mean, even Victarion Greyjoy wouldn't do shit like that. Yes, he would drown a ship full of people if they serve no purpose, but he would never burn down a city and the inhabitants of a city he actually wants to conquer and rule.

5 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

If she does the same in the books it would be more than just "harsh". And she would rightly be deserving of criticism for that.

If she burned the city for no reason - as she does in the show - yes, it would be over the top. If she burns a city for the same reason Aegon burned Harrenhal it would be just the deed of a successful conqueror.

5 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

And as far comparing situation to the strategic bombing campaigns of WW2.  Those bombing campaigns have often been the subject of controversy for causing more damage than what was necessary. In the worst case, you have stuff like Dresden, which was completely monstrous and had little military justification.

Well, there is lip service - various UN treaties, international law, etc. stipulating that basically all direct targeting of civilians in war constitutes war crimes - and then there is the actual practice of war - in the past and present - which routinely includes such practices. I mean, even drone assassinations today don't go without 'collateral damage'.

In a medieval framework the destruction of a complete city doesn't strike me as particularly gruesome. And the very idea that anybody on the other side would give a damn about the lives of 'innocent civilians' on the enemy side is ludicrous. This is not something that would ever happen in the books, especially not in a scenario where the burning of a great city became an option. Just look what kind of person Lem Lemoncloak is right now. The fighting men would all ravel at the prospect of plunder and the chances to rape a couple of women. This is, more or less, why they follow some general to war.

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I enjoyed CleganeBowl, but only because it was impossible for Sandor to succeed without dying himself. He had to “dig two graves...”

I have always been a fan of Jaime and Cersei dying together, but imagined a murder suicide situation. To make it work, they should have skipped the Jaime/Brienne sex or given him some sort of jolt to make him realize that although he liked and admired Brienne, he belonged with Cersei. I also did not like Cersei ‘s blubbering at the end. I am fine with her showing some emotion to her twin that she would never show others, but this was uncharacteristic. Also, she should have been looking for Jaime in the crowd. One of the things I really liked in AFFC was that Cersei never lost faith that Jaime would return to save her, even though we knew he crumpled up her letter. More of that feeling would have made their end work better. This felt unearned. I also agree with others that she needed a monologue and a bigger belly.

 

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So after all these years the Stark fan boys get what they’ve always wanted and I have to watch Jon kill Dany with Jorahs sword. 

Hacks, nihilists and cynics. Dany wouldn’t kill a million people if the city surrendered.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I honestly don't think any of George's character ever tried to minimize deaths in their military campaigns.

Dany didn't just fail to minimize deaths by exercising appropriate command responsibility. She intentionally caused them.

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, there is lip service - various UN treaties, international law, etc. stipulating that basically all direct targeting of civilians in war constitutes war crimes - and then there is the actual practice of war - in the past and present - which routinely includes such practices. I mean, even drone assassinations today don't go without 'collateral damage'.

Nobody should realistically expect zero civilian deaths in a war. That said, it doesn't mean anything goes or is okay. Nor does it mean military commanders have no responsibility to refrain from intentional murder or being utterly reckless in that regard.

 

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

In a medieval framework the destruction of a complete city doesn't strike me as particularly gruesome. And the very idea that anybody on the other side would give a damn about the lives of 'innocent civilians' on the enemy side is ludicrous. This is not something that would ever happen in the books, especially not in a scenario where the burning of a great city became an option. Just look what kind of person Lem Lemoncloak is right now. The fighting men would all ravel at the prospect of plunder and the chances to rape a couple of women. This is, more or less, why they follow some general to war.

I think your attempt to justify Dany's reckless murder of thousands of innocents, that had nothing to do with the military objective of capturing KL, is disgusting and horrific. Makes me want to puke.

Edited by OldGimletEye

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Posted (edited)

So, Jon knows nothing, and now he does nothing.

And if you are friend with a Stark kid and he or she thanks you, you're about to die.

Mad queen happened, i'm not really surprised, 2 or 3 more episodes would have been better to make that more believable.

The only thing that's really bother me so far is the conclusion of Jaime's arc. I don't buy it.

 

Edited by valgrel

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1 minute ago, OldGimletEye said:

Dany didn't just fail to minimize deaths. She intentionally caused them.

Nobody should realistically expect zero civilian deaths. That said, it doesn't mean anything goes or is okay. Nor does it mean military commanders have no responsibility to refrain from intentional murder.

I think your attempt to justify Dany's reckless murder of thousands of innocents, that had nothing to do with the military objective of capturing KL, is disgusting and horrific. Makes me want to puke.

I don't talk about the show nonsense, I talk about the potential of George having his Dany - or any other character - do something even remotely similar. Even George's Dany became a raving lunatic she would still get an internal reason why she was doing that. We would read her POV. We would understand why she thinks she has to do this.

There is zero of this kind of thing in the show, and zero reason to assume that people would actually give a damn about the lives of those people even if something like this were done to them. Because there would be a reason why Dany - or anyone - thought it would be necessary.

Because in this book series nobody is going to think for a second about the lives of innocent people on the other side. If they cared about that, they would not fight wars which are basically just over who has the best blood claim to rule something. Nor would they risk the lives of tens of thousands of people in their personal blood feuds.

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8 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

It's another plot hole.

No one who gets as angry as Daenerys did stays that angry for that long. Like it would have made more sense for her to carve a fiery path for the Red Keep, light the bitch up and let that be the end of it.

She was going to kill innocents anyway if she had just captured the Red Keep.

Human shields remember.

True, but not to kill them just for the pleasure of it, which is what they made happen. War is always going to result in innocents dying. But generally not because they were targeted.

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4 hours ago, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

We complain about the story. But the special effects are fantastic! The dragons are beautiful! The battles are absolutely stunning to watch.

Everything was great, honestly. I loved the episode for all that. Just hate the way to story is being forced to unfurl.

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