Jump to content
Ran

[Spoilers] Episode 805 Discussion

Recommended Posts

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't talk about the show nonsense, I talk about the potential of George having his Dany - or any other character - do something even remotely similar. Even George's Dany became a raving lunatic she would still get an internal reason why she was doing that. We would read her POV. We would understand why she thinks she has to do this.

Look I think the show is nonsense. I'm not sure how this will all go down. But, if Dany were to a commit a similar act in the books she would rightly deserve condemnation for it. I don't give a damn what her reasons might be. The deaths of innocents in KL went way, way beyond those that would likely have resulted from trying to engage an enemy force in a densely populated area. Her forces won and the enemy forces had surrendered. And what does she do? She goes on a completely rampage and pummels KL even though enemy forces had surrendered or wiped out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't talk about the show nonsense, I talk about the potential of George having his Dany - or any other character - do something even remotely similar. Even George's Dany became a raving lunatic she would still get an internal reason why she was doing that. We would read her POV. We would understand why she thinks she has to do this.

There is zero of this kind of thing in the show, and zero reason to assume that people would actually give a damn about the lives of those people even if something like this were done to them. Because there would be a reason why Dany - or anyone - thought it would be necessary.

Because in this book series nobody is going to think for a second about the lives of innocent people on the other side. If they cared about that, they would not fight wars which are basically just over who has the best blood claim to rule something. Nor would they risk the lives of tens of thousands of people in their personal blood feuds.

True, but still the this circle of potential kings or kings that are going "rotten", "useless", "dangerous" to advance or establish themselves has been the mainly focus and narrative of the story ever since it started. I am disappointed because I expected Dany's arc to be used in another way and not just a repetition of the story already told.

In General: 

For me its very disappointing that the story does not progress in actually developing and maturing the characters. 

Another very good example of this is Jamie. Reading a story of a character who finishes right at the point where he had started. This is frustrating because you don't need a whole show of 8 seasons to reach the conclusions that he is enslaved to Cersei. Or that Targs can go bersek. That's actually one of the first thing we learn about the Mad King. And it feels like cheating us into reading. 

If I knew that this whole story just makes circles around itself, actually presenting the same story with a different king or candidate every single time, I wouldn't read it because the point of story  is exhausted by book 4. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We are going to get a tragic ending. No less cliche than happily ever after. Just hoping they close plot holes in finale. That's best we can hope for now imo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Raksha 2014 said:

The ceiling is the Valonquar?

Well, I think that valonquar is only in books and they didn't add this part of the prophecy in the series, unfortunately. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, OldGimletEye said:

Look I think the show is nonsense. I'm not sure how this will all go down. But, if Dany were to a commit a similar act in the books she would rightly deserve condemnation for it. I don't give a damn what her reasons might be. The deaths of innocents in KL went way, way beyond those that would likely have resulted from trying to engage an enemy force in a densely populated area. Her forces won and the enemy forces had surrendered. And what does she do? She goes on a completely rampage and pummels KL even though enemy forces had surrendered or wiped out.

And this is not something she would do in the books. Burning people for no reason simply makes no sense.

Actually it would be much worse in the books since most of KL is built of wood, not magical stone that explodes the moment it is touched by a little bit of fire.

In the books a couple of joyrides over KL in the Dany fashion should result in the complete destruction of the entire city. Red Keep included. There would be no way around that.

And they might certainly use dragons to take KL.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK. Just finished watching it.

The thing is a tragedy in every sense of the word. Spectacular visuals, but the root problem is that the show did not do its homework in setting up Daenerys for this. One can argue that it was coming - and to be honest, I have been suspecting it for the duration - but it needed to develop far more organically than it did. Ditto with Tyrion, Jon, Jaime, et al - it becomes character assassination because the plot has jerked them around, and forced them to be idiots, rather than having the situation being a result of authentic characterisation.

The sad thing is: I think it could have worked. After all, it is a direct call-back to the Sack of King's Landing during Robert's Rebellion (with Lannisters and Targaryens switching places). It was just horribly handled.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Lynn-Ann said:

I think the final straw was Jon's rejection, his obvious reluctance in showing any affection and intimacy towards her, perhaps?

I agree, but that also came out of nowhere. Why does he pull away during their kiss? He literally says he loves her two seconds before that! The secret of his parentage is out, there's no reason now for them not to be together. 

And then he doesn't even say anything to explain or to soothe her feelings. The woman he supposedly loves is feeling hurt and rejected and he just stands there like a lump because D&D can't write dialogue to save their lives. 

The she says the line about fear, and he still doesn't say anything! Forget their personal relationship, this is "his queen" announcing that she tends to terrify Westeros into supporting her, and he has nothing to say about that as one of her main advisors? It's bad writing, pure and simple. 

And I still can't buy that any of that would be enough to make Dany start butchering innocents. It's telling that D&D chose to stop showing her on Drogon's back as she flamed her way across the city. They knew that if they actually showed her face it would be obvious it was wildly OOC for her to keep doing this for over half an hour. I could maybe buy a momentary impulse followed by instant regret, but methodical, relentless slaughter of thousands of innocents who surrendered? No way. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Rory Snow said:

Just a few little nagging thoughts i had about Varys.. why did Varys take off his rings when he got 'arrested'? Was there some significance to the rings? Who was he writing to? Does he have yet another co-conspiritor?

I think he has and it is, probably, Sansa.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

True, but still the this circle of potential kings or kings that are going "rotten", "useless", "dangerous" to advance or establish themselves has been the mainly focus and narrative of the story ever since it started. I am disappointed because I expected Dany's arc to be used in another way and not just a repetition of the story already told.

Well, I certainly think she will become a cruel mistress of Westeros. But I very much doubt she will live beyond the fight against the Others. And after that she could not have possibly a reason to do shit like that out of the blue. Even if it were Aegon inside the city, people would not love that moron if he had sat on his ass during the fight against the Others.

And if he had done that, and if people knew what the guys defeating the Others had done, how the hell could anyone still stick to that guy. How is it that nobody drags him from his throne and cuts his throat? If they don't do that they would indeed all be complicit in a conspiracy against mankind and life itself. 

4 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Another very good example of this is Jamie. Reading a story of a character who finishes right at the point where he had started. This is frustrating because you don't need a whole show of 8 seasons to reach the conclusions that he is enslaved to Cersei. Or that Targs can go bersek. That's actually one of the first thing we learn about the Mad King. And it feels like cheating us into reading. 

The Jaime story doesn't even make remotely sense, either. He is set up to kill Cersei, and considering what's happened between them she still has to do quite a few awful things for him to even consider doing that. He is not at that point yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And this is not something she would do in the books. Burning people for no reason simply makes no sense.

To be honest, I thought she might be more willing to accept the deaths of innocents to get the IT, but not go out of her way to cause them.

So, it's not clear to me that is how things go down. It could very well be D&D nonsense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, OldGimletEye said:

To be honest, I thought she might be more willing to accept the deaths of innocents to get the IT, but not go out of her way to cause them.

So, it's not clear to me that is how things go down. It could very well be D&D nonsense.

She first had to get to the point where she really wants the Iron Throne. Last time the topic was on her table she postponed going to Westeros indefinitely. That's not the action of somebody who is hellbent to taking a throne standing there.

I don't see any way how Dany could be so obsessed with that stupid chair to even remotely be motivated what she did in the show.

Even if she were ultimately rejected by all the Westerosi she still has her own people - her freedmen, her Dothraki, and whoever else is going to join her. And she doesn't have any personal connection to or obsession with the Iron Throne or Westeros. She was never there, she doesn't remember it. But even if she was rejected - whatever role she is going to play in the War for the Dawn is going to win her both respect and love from a pretty large portion of the continent.

I mean, considering the point from which she is coming the show travesty of 'Daenerys' must really, really hate those poor Kingslanders. She repeated bathed them all in fire. Why? What was the point? She has no reason to hate people she doesn't even know, and up to the Missandei thing she doesn't even have a good reason to hate Cersei. But whatever her thoughts about Cersei - that 'hate' never drove her to actually attack the Red Keep while she could still be reasonably sure to get Cersei.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

To be honest, I thought she might be more willing to accept the deaths of innocents to get the IT, but not go out of her way to cause them.

So, it's not clear to me that is how things go down. It could very well be D&D nonsense.

I'd say it's more:

"I want to become Queen, to uplift innocents."

"Oh, you want to stop me becoming Queen? You're not an innocent!"

A properly characterised Daenerys would limit herself to burning the Red Keep and only the Red Keep, then expecting the people to worship her like a Goddess. Massacring civilians goes against her self-identity, unless there is some additional trickery/false information thing going on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Last time the City opened its gates to let a peacefull army into the red keep it prob. was the mad King allowing the Lannister Army to enter. Wich ended in plundering and rape and the killing of Danys father.

Now it is the Daughter entering the city and the other Daughter and the Kingslayer on the other end of it. I can totally see that going down in the books. With Daenerys stories from her childhood coming back to life ect.

In the show it just seemed rushed and out of character.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, zed said:

I agree, but that also came out of nowhere. Why does he pull away during their kiss? He literally says he loves her two seconds before that! The secret of his parentage is out, there's no reason now for them not to be together.  

...

And I still can't buy that any of that would be enough to make Dany start butchering innocents. It's telling that D&D chose to stop showing her on Drogon's back as she flamed her way across the city. They knew that if they actually showed her face it would be obvious it was wildly OOC for her to keep doing this for over half an hour. I could maybe buy a momentary impulse followed by instant regret, but methodical, relentless slaughter of thousands of innocents who surrendered? No way. 

I sort of get your second point but not your first.

How is love simple?  Have you never been in love?

Have you never been in love then later been in love with another person?
Have you never been in love with someone who has been in love with another person?
Have you never been in love with someone who someone who is your friend has said that you shouldn't be in love with?

(I haven't even mentioned the minefield of having been in love with someone who has then died.)
This is not high fantasy.  If you want fairy tale romance, reread Tolkien.

Second point, she is the "mother of dragons".

Whether it is morally acceptable or not, her going mad is sort of understandable

Fire and Blood (peace sign)

Edited by Lupine

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

I think your attempt to justify Dany's reckless murder of thousands of innocents, that had nothing to do with the military objective of capturing KL, is disgusting and horrific. Makes me want to puk

This is just a straw man. His literal argument is that show Dany’s action is ridiculous because there’s no real reason given to it. Far from attempting to “justify” it, he’s clearly condemning it as stupid. If Book Daenerys did the same thing for the same reasons it’d also be absurd. If she did it for a military objectives she’d be acting in alignment with a typical conqueror. Worthy of as much moral outrage you’d grant to Napelon, or Alexzander. 

37 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Look I think the show is nonsense. I'm not sure how this will all go down. But, if Dany were to a commit a similar act in the books she would rightly deserve condemnation for it. I don't give a damn what her reasons might be.

Depending upon her reasons she could deserve more than those typically waging war to become monarch. If her reasons where like the ones here which seem utterly pointless and important for the shock value. But  she did it for more “practical” reasons it could mean she simply deserves as much condemnation as most of others clawing there way to rule in her setting. To where shes choosing to burnout the lives of thousands in KL because it would aid her in her pursuit for her ambitions and/or her quest for vegence. Honestly, typical and seen as valid reasons for conducting war in her setting. “Minimizing death” isn’t found to be a very high priority in this type of medieval setting. If it was, in real life, we wouldn’t frequently hear of armies flinging the diseased dead in the holding of their enemies. A plague is indiscriminate, and it could/will result in the deaths of primarily civilians. Plenty of innocents did die, were mutilated, and brutalized in Robb’s rebellion. Hell he sees a boy basically lose his leg in one of his battles and his response and only commentary on it is “they killed my father” when pushed on it by Talisa. And never comments on it again.

There would be lots of butchery  if Stannis took KL. No one doubts that.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

Did anyone find the fight between Jamie and Euron funny? Even before Euron's famous last comment, I was laughing. Then his smile and announcing as he dies, I killed Jamie Lannister was too much. Battle of the stupids. Euron is a great pirate but no more.

I laughed so hard when he just happened to show up on the shore where Jaime was, all confident and ready to fight even though his ship had exploded and he had to swim to shore. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dany burning KL would be basically her Harrenhal. Did Harrenhal damage Aegon the Conqueror's reputation? I don't think so, actually.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd recommend to anyone, By Sword and Fire, Cruelty and Atrocity in Medieval Warfare by Sean McGlynn, which is riveting, if depressing.

Plenty of medieval commanders would have done exactly what Dany did, upon capturing a city that had offered resistance, and whose commander had executed her best friend in front of her, at a parley.  They, like she, would hold all the inhabitants collectively guilty for the decisions of their leaders.   Beziers, Soissons, Cesena, Rome, Herat, Delhi, Baghdad, and countless other cities and towns bear witness to that. 

And, that's not to deny that the murder of civilians in Kings Landing was evil and barbaric.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My immediate thought was the Sack of Magdeburg... but that was a result of (unpaid) soldiers running amok, rather than a deliberate massacre on the part of the leadership. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I'd recommend to anyone, By Sword and Fire, Cruelty and Atrocity in Medieval Warfare by Sean McGlynn, which is riveting, if depressing.

Plenty of medieval commanders would have done exactly what Dany did, upon capturing a city that had offered resistance, and whose commander had executed her best friend in front of her, at a parley.  They, like she, would hold all the inhabitants collectively guilty for the decisions of their leaders.   Beziers, Soissons, Cesena, Rome, Herat, Delhi, Baghdad, and countless other cities and towns bear witness to that. 

And, that's not to deny that the murder of civilians in Kings Landing was evil and barbaric.

But here's the thing: Daenerys doesn't want to add these people to her Empire. She actually wants to live among them and rule them. As such, she's broken Machiavelli's golden rule.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×