Jump to content
Ran

[Spoilers] Episode 805 Discussion

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

I'd say it's more:

"I want to become Queen, to uplift innocents."

"Oh, you want to stop me becoming Queen? You're not an innocent!"

A properly characterised Daenerys would limit herself to burning the Red Keep and only the Red Keep, then expecting the people to worship her like a Goddess. Massacring civilians goes against her self-identity, unless there is some additional trickery/false information thing going on.



Daenarys burns down the Red Keep, walks out alone expecting to be worshipped as a savior only to be attacked by the civilians who have just suffered murder and rape by her forces.  She cracks, and Drogon swoops in to incinerate them all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, markdotinc said:

Daenarys burns down the Red Keep, walks out alone expecting to be worshipped as a savior only to be attacked by the civilians who have just suffered murder and rape by her forces.  She cracks, and Drogon swoops in to incinerate them all.

That would be infinitely superior.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Actually they did.

Brienne killed several northmen who had been raping and torturing civilians when she and Jaime were on their way back to King's Landing

Yes, raping and beating people. That's the Middle Ages. But all of them MASSACRING A CITY? That's different. That's the Mongols when a city wouldn't surrender.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Let us hope that this is that one. The other possibility is even worse: Jon.

I think it will be so when he kills her 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, markdotinc said:

Daenarys burns down the Red Keep, walks out alone expecting to be worshipped as a savior only to be attacked by the civilians who have just suffered murder and rape by her forces.  She cracks, and Drogon swoops in to incinerate them all.

So much better writing!

 

Or at least, the other dragon being killed by the Iron Fleet right before attacking the city, so her rage would be fresh. Then she'd be temporally insane. Instead of what we got.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SeanF said:

IMHO, Dany planned to massacre a large number of the inhabitants, so she burned her way through the city.  She had instructed Grey Worm to carry out a massacre as well.  Once the Dothraki and Northern soldiers saw what was happening, they knew their commander was letting them off the leash, and they joined in.

 

We saw how she approved of Tyrion's request that if they ring the bells to open the gates, the attack would be called off. She nodded to Grey Worm about that, so that was his order. He broke that order - an Unsullied, taught to obey 100% for every day of his life. Disobeying the queen he worships. Yes, then she started burning the city, but that was after he disobeyed the order.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, WarLord said:

Aegom did not intentionally burn civilians. Only major Dragon attacks by him were on Harrenhal castle and on the alliance army.

The Dornish war sounds as though it was almost genocidal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Jarl Halstein said:

We saw how she approved of Tyrion's request that if they ring the bells to open the gates, the attack would be called off. She nodded to Grey Worm about that, so that was his order. He broke that order - an Unsullied, taught to obey 100% for every day of his life. Disobeying the queen he worships. Yes, then she started burning the city, but that was after he disobeyed the order.

I interpret that nod differently, more like "You know what your orders are."  Grey Worm does not hurl his spear until Dany begins burning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, UKS said:

It is like GRRM told D&D sort of the end state without nuance or logic... last week and they have 2 hours to get there. Each of these plots could have unfolded over many many weeks and closed ONE AT A TIME. 

I now think this would of been better as 22 episode a week tv show with the buget of Once upon a time told over ten seasons. Story story story. Every thing else forgivable - so so costumes Zoic doing the vfx but well developed deep dive into the books.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I was watching this show for the first time, and I started with this episode, I think I would be pretty impressed.  It was super cinematic and amazing to look at.  Really beautiful.  The episode itself is good...it just doesn't make sense AT ALL for a number of the characters.  So its difficult for me to articulate what I think about it because aspects of it are done so well and other aspects are completely nonsensical. 

I've mostly appreciated Sandor's arc.  I don't buy that he was able to end Arya's drive for revenge with what he said, but I can appreciate what they were saying about the senselessness of vengeance consuming one's life.  And I'm glad that Sandor understood that, too (even if he felt it was too late to change it).  

I was fairly impressed with Emilia's acting this episode.  She does well playing Daenerys in this way.  It's so unfortunate that the lead up to this was so abrupt.  I am one of those who has thought she would likely end up being a very cruel and unfit ruler, from very early on.  Ever since she saw her brother crowned.  And there have been multiple signs all through the seasons that reinforced my opinion that she would eventually turn into a tyrant.  That she wasn't the person she thought she was (not a savior).  BUT.  If she had 'snapped' and had flown to the Red Keep and burned that, I would have found it believable.  But there is absolutely no excuse for her suddenly deciding to destroy the entire city, and all the people in it. :stunned:  THAT was too abrupt.  

Jaime.  I voiced my thoughts and disappointment about him in the 'they ruined Jaime thread'.  They did indeed ruin him.  They have shown him to gradually be someone who *does* care about innocents.  Who has that 'true knight' inside.  And then, in his last 2 episodes, they have him completely revert to the man he was in 1x01.  Huh?!  I never thought he stopped loving Cersei, but to reiterate that nothing but two of them matter...to care about nothing else but saving this woman, to essentially say to hell with everything and everyone else.  I'm so disappointed.  Probably more disappointed about his character than anyone else on the show. 

I don't see anything else for Jon but death or exile.  I do like his character...but this catastrophe is absolutely on him as well.  

One tiny moment - I admit my breath did catch a bit when Tyrion put his hand on Varys' arm; the look on Varys' face.  Like no one had touched him with kindness and friendship in...ever.  A good moment. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Red Dragon10 said:

If I was watching this show for the first time, and I started with this episode, I think I would be pretty impressed.  It was super cinematic and amazing to look at.  Really beautiful.  The episode itself is good...it just doesn't make sense AT ALL for a number of the characters.  So its difficult for me to articulate what I think about it because aspects of it are done so well and other aspects are completely nonsensical. 

I've mostly appreciated Sandor's arc.  I don't buy that he was able to end Arya's drive for revenge with what he said, but I can appreciate what they were saying about the senselessness of vengeance consuming one's life.  And I'm glad that Sandor understood that, too (even if he felt it was too late to change it).  

I was fairly impressed with Emilia's acting this episode.  She does well playing Daenerys in this way.  It's so unfortunate that the lead up to this was so abrupt.  I am one of those who has thought she would likely end up being a very cruel and unfit ruler, from very early on.  Ever since she saw her brother crowned.  And there have been multiple signs all through the seasons that reinforced my opinion that she would eventually turn into a tyrant.  That she wasn't the person she thought she was (not a savior).  BUT.  If she had 'snapped' and had flown to the Red Keep and burned that, I would have found it believable.  But there is absolutely no excuse for her suddenly deciding to destroy the entire city, and all the people in it. :stunned:  THAT was too abrupt.  

Jaime.  I voiced my thoughts and disappointment about him in the 'they ruined Jaime thread'.  They did indeed ruin him.  They have shown him to gradually be someone who *does* care about innocents.  Who has that 'true knight' inside.  And then, in his last 2 episodes, they have him completely revert to the man he was in 1x01.  Huh?!  I never thought he stopped loving Cersei, but to reiterate that nothing but two of them matter...to care about nothing else but saving this woman, to essentially say to hell with everything and everyone else.  I'm so disappointed.  Probably more disappointed about his character than anyone else on the show. 

I don't see anything else for Jon but death or exile.  I do like his character...but this catastrophe is absolutely on him as well.  

One tiny moment - I admit my breath did catch a bit when Tyrion put his hand on Varys' arm; the look on Varys' face.  Like no one had touched him with kindness and friendship in...ever.  A good moment. 

I liked the last line Varys  had. “I hope I deserve this, truly, I hope I’m wrong”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Red Dragon10 said:

don't see anything else for Jon but death or exile.  I do like his character...but this catastrophe is absolutely on him as well.  

Back to the Night's watch with him.  Lol

He can help rebuild the wall 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Wsc48 said:

Back to the Night's watch with him.  Lol

He can help rebuild the wall 

I really think he will kill Dany. That will be the betrayal for love? Davos for the Hand of whoever ends up ruling the city of ashes. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with those who have said the many of the problems boil down to the fact that the story has been too rushed. I really began to notice it last season.  I think that D&D knew where they needed to end up and to a great extent have had to move the characters around like game pieces to get them where they're going. That's why, I think, everyone is complaining that the characters' actions are out of character. They just didn't have the time to properly build the motivation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Jarl Halstein said:

We saw how she approved of Tyrion's request that if they ring the bells to open the gates, the attack would be called off. She nodded to Grey Worm about that, so that was his order. He broke that order - an Unsullied, taught to obey 100% for every day of his life. Disobeying the queen he worships. Yes, then she started burning the city, but that was after he disobeyed the order.

Are you sure?! I must rewatch, because I have seen it absolutely differently, probably, was affected, but I still think that it was the other way around. I will not be surprised if they discussed it with Grey Worm beforehand.

Edited by Gala

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, The Dragon Demands said:

I don’t think any of this will happen in the books

 

GRRM has said GOT is a faithful adaptation, that the ending would not be 'that' different for the main characters and that the show has the major beats.  So, this is to me wishful thinking. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Cas Stark said:

GRRM has said GOT is a faithful adaptation, that the ending would not be 'that' different for the main characters and that the show has the major beats.  So, this is to me wishful thinking. 

To be fair, his recent interviews hint that he isn t that certain if the ending will be the same… He hasn t even seen the scripts and isn t playing the finale in his theatre… I don t think he is that happy with the series...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, divica said:

To be fair, his recent interviews hint that he isn t that certain if the ending will be the same… He hasn t even seen the scripts and isn t playing the finale in his theatre… I don t think he is that happy with the series...

He doesn't really hint that, this is again wishful thinking, he indicates that for the secondary characters their endings may be different, to take this to mean that Dany's ending will be different to me is not reasonable, shifting out pieces of the plot isn't the same as changing the ending for 1/2 main characters in the story. The showrunners and Martin have always said that the ending will be mostly the same.  He may not be that happy with the series, since they totally fucked up Dany going mad among other things, but that doesn't mean that this isn't still his storyline.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Gala said:

Are you sure?! I must rewatch, because I have seen it absolutely differently, probably, was affected, but I still think that it was the other way around. I will not be surprised if they discussed it with Grey Worm beforehand.

Definitely, Daenerys starting burning everything first, then he threw the spear.  But killing everybody was definitely what Grey Worm wanted to do!  I think him and D were of a similar mind to make everyone pay. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×