[Spoilers] Episode 805 Discussion

[LadyBlackwater]

18 minutes ago, TNTW said:

I've worked thru the stages of grief. I finally made it to acceptance. What do I win? (Besides my sanity)

Your life back lol. We all win. No more obligatory watching because we know at this point, we’re in too deep. We have to see it through and then, we live.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

1. Provide evidence about Chinese attitudes about Genghis Khan.

I think @Zorral fulfilled that request.

1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

2. You didn't answer my question why Dorne would particularly like Aegon. Probably the most likely explanation is they just don't think about him much since he invaded their country so long ago.

I didn’t actually say they’d “particularly” like him. I’ve lamented their feelings in regards to him are probably in alignment with the rest of the country. Which has shown a general respect. Not surprising the greatest conqueror in their in history. 

1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

3. I don't disagree that context matter. However, it shouldn't be a free pass either. It's not a license for anything goes. Aegon's invasion of Dorne was atrocious.

You apparently don’t since you’re still holding him to relatively modern understanding on on how war-fare ought be waged. 

1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

4. And you didn't do a very good job of answering my question why we should as book readers like Aegon, even if he is allegedly revered in Westeros

You could like whoever you want man. No one is saying you must like Aegon or Despise him. All is being is that you not purely judge him, a medieval conqueror, purely by the standards of contemporary society. 

1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

nterestingly enough, the article suggest Ghenghis isn't particularly well liked in the Soviet Union or Vietnam. I wonder why.

Yes, yes, not every people conquered will grow to love/respect their conqueror. My position was simply that the exact opposite that sentiment  is also false; that just because a person  waged war and/or conquered a people doesn’t mean the conquered will hate that person for all time or even dislike him.

 

Edited May 14, 2019 by Varysblackfyre321

[Kaguya]

3 hours ago, Ser Lepus said:

Dany gains NOTHING from burning the commoners. The freaking Red Keep was in front of her like a sitting duck, waiting to be attacked, and she chose to slaughter the commoners instead! These aren't "normal" medieval atrocities, that are "I am gonna burn my subjects for no reason, so TV watchers will know that I am mad and evil durr durr!"

Found this on YouTube 

 

“I would question if even Cersei would do this if the roles were reversed. Her evil has always been personal. A Cersei on drogon would just go straight after Dany and not waste her time killing innocents”

How true do we think this is? 

 

 

Edited May 14, 2019 by Kaguya

[TheValonqarThatWasAzorAhai]

Did anyone else notice Varys was trying to poison Dany in the beginning of the episode.  I noticed that right away, I even wrote it down in my notes that I take for each episode. (Sorry if it’s been mentioned before, haven’t read every page yet)

[darksellsword]

10 minutes ago, TheValonqarThatWasAzorAhai said:

Did anyone else notice Varys was trying to poison Dany in the beginning of the episode.  I noticed that right away, I even wrote it down in my notes that I take for each episode. (Sorry if it’s been mentioned before, haven’t read every page yet)

I did notice it but only on second viewing. I naively thought he was just trying to get her to eat. I didn't think he would be blatantly trying to kill her already. I do have to question Varys being on Dragonstone at that point. He is the master of whispers a genius level political strategist. I think he would've removed himself to a secure location to plot against Daenerys.

[dcex]

https://twitter.com/thronesfacts/status/1127811524880289793

this is just a coincidence, right? 

[darksellsword]

1 minute ago, dcex said:

https://twitter.com/thronesfacts/status/1127811524880289793

this is just a coincidence, right? 

Apparently the pale mare is a reference to the four horsemen of the apocalypse, death rides the pale mare. Arya is the god of death now in this show, great *rolls eyes*

[HotPie85]

It looked like the horse of the Golden Companies commander? 

[darksellsword]

2 minutes ago, HotPie85 said:

It looked like the horse of the Golden Companies commander? 

It could be both right? I think it is safe to say it had some symbolism in the way it was presented to her

[CrypticWeirwood]

21 minutes ago, darksellsword said:

I did notice it but only on second viewing. I naively thought he was just trying to get her to eat. I didn't think he would be blatantly trying to kill her already. I do have to question Varys being on Dragonstone at that point. He is the master of whispers a genius level political strategist. I think he would've removed himself to a secure location to plot against Daenerys.

The poison could have been one to make someone lose their temper. That way she would be her own undoing in the eyes of the world, and no one would ever catch Varys.

It's like the Red Viper and Tywin. Even after Oberyn's death, his goose was cooked. So too with the Spider. .

We don't know that Martha failed. Probably Dany eventually ate.

Edited May 14, 2019 by CrypticWeirwood

[LadySage]

Tried to re watch. Lasted 15 minutes. So sad.

[darksellsword]

Just now, CrypticWeirwood said:

The poison could have been one to make someone lose their temper. That way she would be her own undoing in the eyes of the world, and no one would ever catch Varys.

We don't know that Martha failed. Probably Dany eventually ate.

That's actually a really good point. They were really inconsistent with how they did her makeup though, She looked haggard on Dragonstone but when she was attacking kingslanding she was back to her beautiful self apart from a dark patch on her face that I initially took for some kind of sickness but I guess was just soot from the fire. 

[Remember]

1 hour ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

The poison could have been one to make someone lose their temper. That way she would be her own undoing in the eyes of the world, and no one would ever catch Varys.

It's like the Red Viper and Tywin. Even after Oberyn's death, his goose was cooked. So too with the Spider. .

We don't know that Martha failed. Probably Dany eventually ate.

Honestly though, wouldn't we have to see this happening? Even if it's vague, like say Danny eating a meal when Jon walks into her room right after the little girl walks out? We wouldn't know, but we could theorize. This is the end game, you have to show the reasoning for her going mad if it's not just 100% related to the "build up" the writers have included over the years. And with Varys dead there's no way to confirm (unless they waste time in interviewing they little girl in the finale).

I just think varys was trying to kill her and failed. 

[CrypticWeirwood]

1 minute ago, Remember said:

Honestly though, wouldn't we have to see this happening? Even if it's vague, like say Danny eating a meal when Jon walks into her room right after the little girl walks out? We wouldn't know, but we could theorize. This is the end game, you have to show the reasoning for her going mad if it's not just 100% related to the "build up" the writers have included over the years. And with Varys dead there's no way to confirm (unless they waste time in interviewing they little girl in the finale).

I just think varys was trying to kill her and failed. 

You're probably right.

But we're apparently due for a lot of Branposition next episode, so who knows.

[Remember]

5 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

You're probably right.

But we're apparently due for a lot of Branposition next episode, so who knows.

Honestly, I like the Branposition and backstory scenes more than drawn out battle scenes lol

[MinscS2]

1 hour ago, LadySage said:

Tried to re watch. Lasted 15 minutes. So sad.

It's a pretty depressing episode all things considered, as the second half of it is simply different variations of innocent people getting killed/raped and different ways of Arya showing off her plot armor by surviving things that would kill anyone else. 

This wasn't a battle, it was a slaughter - Of both the people of King's Landing and the franchise as a whole.

Edit: And Varys was clearly trying to kill Daenerys with poison. It wouldn't be the first time he tried (*cough S1 cough*)

Edited May 14, 2019 by MinscS2

[The Marquis de Leech]

5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Probably no more or less than the other Kingdoms Aegon conquered. You know many Chinese citizens today revere Genghis though he’s committed loads of atrocities to build his empire. Oh and I would guess there’s not too a lot of resentment for Napoleon amongst the British even though he did his damndest to break them in pursuit of his empire.

There is, actually.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11665655/Waterloo-200-Its-Britain-not-France-that-has-a-Napoleon-complex.html

[The Marquis de Leech]

4 hours ago, Zorral said:

Even as far back as the 1980s, China financed and helped rebuilt the Khan's mausoleum.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1987-06-13-mn-6896-story.html

The Mongolians, of course, really revere him.  In the entertainment forum, coincidentally, just last week was it? I put up two Youtubes of young Mongolian music videos about the return of Genghis and how his ideals for living should return.

Georgians have a distinct fondness for Stalin, of course.

[The Marquis de Leech]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Care for commoners is a modern concept that has no place in George R. R. Martin's Westeros. There are small traces of this in Doran Martell's political approach and the softness of Edmure Tully - but that extends only to your own smallfolk, not to the smallfolk of your enemies. And curiously enough the only person who gave a rat's ass about the lives of innocents she basically had nothing to do with actually is Daenerys.

Noblesse oblige ain't modern, and traditional aristocrats have always understood what happens if the poor are treated too badly. 

I would agree though that tyranny towards nobility in Westeros is treated rather differently from tyranny towards the peasantry. Aerys Targaryen is still remembered fondly by the smallfolk, because his shenanigans never reached them.

[stoneghost28]

On 5/12/2019 at 7:35 PM, Oakenfist said:

Wow, I'm not even a Dany fan but the way they made her turn mad is completely unbelievable and contrived. 

It was ridiculous. I get that there was plenty of foreshadowing that she can be ruthless when dealing with her enemies but when did she ever actually annihilate civilians on the ground just living their lives? She was made more than aware that the everyday people of the city were being used as shields by Cersei. Arguing that she went mad is total horse bleep. I can get get w/showing the brutality of a city being sacked. Anyone who spends anytime studying ancient history, let alone medieval history knows what happens more often than not during sackings (mass slaughter, and the selling into slavery of the surviving women and children). Heck you can look at the 20th century to see what happened in the fire bombings of Tokyo, Dresden, what happened at Guernica or in the Rape of Nanking. We never needed dragons to accomplish much worse than what was shown here.

My issue is that Dany hasn't really shown an inclination to slaughter civilians from what I've seen. Her enemies? Sure. But children? Mothers? The elderly? Come on. It was ridiculous. For me, watching last night, and in season 7 and 8, all I've felt the whole time is Ive been watching two guys that got a sweetheart deal with Kathleen Kennedy (wonder if she's having any buyers remorse? She's got no problem giving significantly talented directors the hook after all), and after spending at least what, 2008 or 2009-2018 working on the project and they're beyond over it. The half-blanked moronic answers they've given in "Inside the Episode" specials to explain character motivation etc has been farcical at best, and absurd at worst. For anyone else who read it, this whole experience has echoed finishing Jean Auel's Earth's Children series with a fifth book that was at best tedious, and a finale that was a complete and total abomination and essentially worked as a negation of everything that came before it, if it hadn't been a library book I probably would have given it the Tess of the d'Urbervilles treatment from my high school days (tossed out an open window and into my backyard upon it's denouement). 

It's just beyond frustrating to see these yokel's pull a Lindelof, secure a guaranteed stretch run of multiple years to wrap up the series on their terms, and then show that they were out of ideas the second they gained such a controlling interest, and indeed were hacks w/a flair for Michael Bayesque filmmaking, all hat no cattle. Martin may be cynical as hell and maybe he wanted this, but regardless at least his material would have came w/quality depth and pacing, and clarity and coherence. Instead it's a heaping pile of manure filmed quite beautifully. I feel for Sapochnik. The guy who gave us Hardhome, The Battle of the Bastards, and The Winds of Winter gave us something stunning to look at, but he couldn't overcome the inept writing of D&D (happy to see he also directed the series opener for Altered Carbon, one of my favorite shows of the past half decade or so).