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[Spoilers] Episode 805 Discussion

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On 5/14/2019 at 3:47 PM, stoneghost28 said:

In regards to the writing, I'm critiquing what I regard as lazy, and hasty writing to wrap up a show. Everything I've seen the past two years has been actors and directors desperately trying to make something work out of hastily thrown together material from D&D and my suspicions all along have been that landing a deal with Kathleen Kennedy AND probably being bored being locked down for a decade w/this material is behind it, and what do you know, we get a press announcement just 24 hours or so after that episode that  D&D will be helming the next unique Star Wars story to be released in movie theatres after IX (their working with Kennedy had been announced a few years ago, but this news was an update on that announcement). I think I nailed at least some of the issues behind the sloppiness in these final two seasons (not that it's an original idea or anything, I'm sure most have considered it largely responsible for the decline in quality as well). 

 

 

I regard those who call showruners lazy to be lazy critics.  I can promise you that laziness has nothing to do with the issues you are identifying.  

What they had was a deadline (due to actor availability and need to not have too much time pass between seasons), a budget, and the inability to go back and change anything once it was filmed, three issues that Martin doesn't have.  I mean, it's been eight years since ADWD and even he can't even finish the next book, much less the series.  That's not from laziness either, it's from how difficult endings are and the quality level he wants it to be.  The difference is he can take as long as he wants, doesn't have to worry about how much it will cost to produce, and can look at the final product, decide he doesn't like something, and go back and fix it as many times as he wants.

I commend D&D for having the guts to push forward to the finish.  Perhaps it's an imperfect finish (I think it's pretty great but can also admit that it would be better if they were working off Martin source material rather than having to invent whole cloth), I'm sure there is much they would do differently if they had the time and budget to change certain things, but I for one prefer getting an imperfect ending to no ending.

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My god they had 2 years, HBO gave them anything they wanted, including a shorter season, 6 episodes for $15 million each.  Time constraints?  Budget constraints?  

And I'm sorry, the writing is extremely sloppy and lazy, veering this season into the non existent.

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3 hours ago, olibar said:

I regard those who call showruners lazy to be lazy critics.  I can promise you that laziness has nothing to do with the issues you are identifying.  

What they had was a deadline (due to actor availability and need to not have too much time pass between seasons), a budget, and the inability to go back and change anything once it was filmed, three issues that Martin doesn't have.  I mean, it's been eight years since ADWD and even he can't even finish the next book, much less the series.  That's not from laziness either, it's from how difficult endings are and the quality level he wants it to be.  The difference is he can take as long as he wants, doesn't have to worry about how much it will cost to produce, and can look at the final product, decide he doesn't like something, and go back and fix it as many times as he wants.

I commend D&D for having the guts to push forward to the finish.  Perhaps it's an imperfect finish (I think it's pretty great but can also admit that it would be better if they were working off Martin source material rather than having to invent whole cloth), I'm sure there is much they would do differently if they had the time and budget to change certain things, but I for one prefer getting an imperfect ending to no ending.

Yes, because pushing forward to the finish while cutting corners, sabotaging character arcs and dropping plotlines is commendable.

That's like if you are writing a college term paper and push forward to the finish...only for the paper to be wildly off-topic at the end of it. The arguments and the citations made and cited in the beginning of the paper are forgotten.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Yes, because pushing forward to the finish while cutting corners, sabotaging character arcs and dropping plotlines is commendable.

You are right and I agree with you but I believe we cant really judge as far as it concerns the storyline because we don't know where DD end and where Martin ends. And the worst part of it is that Martin never wrote the continuation so we won't know. Now he has time to revise and adjust his books to create more solid plot lines and throwing the blame on DD because he can. 

For example Jamie's arc was so extremely ruined. No real development and not even realism. You don't go back to a woman who tried to kill you. But how do we know this was not Martin's idea which he transferred to DD and they make it even worst trying to deliver it under 10 minutes? 

How can this thing not to be a mess? You have a writer whose missing, unable to put his own ideas on paper and 2 show runners who want 

1. to wrap it up and be done

2. keep the same major plot points but follow television-show rules for the sake of the actors, the fan fanservice and the ratings

3. give the same end 

4. stick in budget

well this was a very high bet all along and it simply collapsed. 

And I do hope that nobody reads Martin's books because he is so lazy with his material and got so comfortable with the money he took, that forgot to deliver his books, especially to "protect" his intellectual child from abuse at the hands of the producers. But he didn't care. That's the obvious answer.

 Also I am bored by his twisted fantasy that delivers the same message again and again with every character; the greed for power bla..bla..bla.. so the development remains stagnant because you know what? it never gets beyond that point.

I am really sorry that I spend so many years watching the show and reading the books in order to discover that his definition of realism  is nihilism and his definition of bittersweet is tragedy.  

Sorry, needed some steam out...

Edited by Nightwish

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Posted (edited)

I've been trying to craft a response to this episode for two days, to give it at least something of a fair shake, but I just can't. There have been individual moments on GoT more unpleasant than this (Sansa's rape, for example) but as whole episodes go, this was probably just about as unwatchable as the show gets. Previous bad episodes were at least bad in interesting ways. D&D have a penchant for almost getting the point, but being off by just enough that if nothing else, how they screwed it up makes for interesting discussion. Not here.

The episode itself can be summarized in one sentence: Dany burns down Kings Landing. The scorpions introduced a season ago did nothing to stop it, despite being teased as something that might even the odds. The Sellsword Company ex Machina, I mean the Golden Company, were introduced so that they could be roasted by dragon fire. Euron gets his fleet burned and loses a sword fight with a man missing his sword hand. The oh so hyped fight between the Clegane brothers came about in the most contrived fashion and it was really hard to get invested in the outcome. Did Sandor ever mention hating his brother before this episode? Certainly not for several seasons. Whatever was left of Jaime Lannister died when he said that he never actually cared about the people of King's Landing. Those would be the same people he sacrificed his reputation to save. Was this tragic irony or simply bad writing? Whatever, our favourite twincests get to die in each other's arms. Arya's plot armour has reached anime levels; it's ridiculous.

I still have no idea what the point of the bells that gave this episode it's title was supposed to be. At first, ringing them to signal surrender seemed like something Tyrion had just thought up: he tells Dany to listen for them and then he tells Jaime to have them rung. But then, we have random people calling for the bells to ring, like it's a common signal for surrender. If this were the case though, why would Tyrion need to tell people what they meant? The most likely explanation is that it was supposed to be a recognized signal of surrender, but this was never actually established before in either books or show, so they had to go extra heavy on the foreshadowing.

Also, does anybody know what Meera Reed, Yara Greyjoy, Edmure Tully, Quaithe, Daario Naharis, Illyrio Mopathis, Jaquen H'Ghar, Robert Arryn, The Hill Tribes of the Vale, Kinvara, Salladhor Saan and Ilyn Payne are up to? 

Edited by LHakaLH

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51 minutes ago, LHakaLH said:

I've been trying to craft a response to this episode for two days, to give it at least something of a fair shake, but I just can't. There have been individual moments on GoT more unpleasant than this (Sansa's rape, for example) but as whole episodes go, this was probably just about as unwatchable as the show gets. Previous bad episodes were at least bad in interesting ways. D&D have a penchant for almost getting the point, but being off by just enough that if nothing else, how they screwed it up makes for interesting discussion. Not here.

The episode itself can be summarized in one sentence: Dany burns down Kings Landing. The scorpions introduced a season ago did nothing to stop it, despite being teased as something that might even the odds. The Sellsword Company ex Machina, I mean the Golden Company, were introduced so that they could be roasted by dragon fire. Euron gets his fleet burned and loses a sword fight with a man missing his sword hand. The oh so hyped fight between the Clegane brothers came about in the most contrived fashion and it was really hard to get invested in the outcome. Did Sandor ever mention hating his brother before this episode? Certainly not for several seasons. Whatever was left of Jaime Lannister died when he said that he never actually cared about the people of King's Landing. Those would be the same people he sacrificed his reputation to save. Was this tragic irony or simply bad writing? Whatever, our favourite twincests get to die in each other's arms. Arya's plot armour has reached anime levels; it's ridiculous.

I still have no idea what the point of the bells that gave this episode it's title was supposed to be. At first, ringing them to signal surrender seemed like something Tyrion had just thought up: he tells Dany to listen for them and then he tells Jaime to have them rung. But then, we have random people calling for the bells to ring, like it's a common signal for surrender. If this were the case though, why would Tyrion need to tell people what they meant? The most likely explanation is that it was supposed to be a recognized signal of surrender, but this was never actually 

Also, does anybody know what Meera Reed, Yara Greyjoy, Edmure Tully, Quaithe, Daario Naharis, Illyrio Mopathis, Jaquen H'Ghar, Robert Arryn, The Hill Tribes of the Vale, Kinvara, Salladhor Saan and Ilyn Payne are up to? 

Sure, they commit suicide one after the other before the script writers have a chance to get them. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, LHakaLH said:

I've been trying to craft a response to this episode for two days, to give it at least something of a fair shake, but I just can't. There have been individual moments on GoT more unpleasant than this (Sansa's rape, for example) but as whole episodes go, this was probably just about as unwatchable as the show gets. Previous bad episodes were at least bad in interesting ways. D&D have a penchant for almost getting the point, but being off by just enough that if nothing else, how they screwed it up makes for interesting discussion. Not here.

The episode itself can be summarized in one sentence: Dany burns down Kings Landing. The scorpions introduced a season ago did nothing to stop it, despite being teased as something that might even the odds. The Sellsword Company ex Machina, I mean the Golden Company, were introduced so that they could be roasted by dragon fire. Euron gets his fleet burned and loses a sword fight with a man missing his sword hand. The oh so hyped fight between the Clegane brothers came about in the most contrived fashion and it was really hard to get invested in the outcome. Did Sandor ever mention hating his brother before this episode? Certainly not for several seasons. Whatever was left of Jaime Lannister died when he said that he never actually cared about the people of King's Landing. Those would be the same people he sacrificed his reputation to save. Was this tragic irony or simply bad writing? Whatever, our favourite twincests get to die in each other's arms. Arya's plot armour has reached anime levels; it's ridiculous.

I still have no idea what the point of the bells that gave this episode it's title was supposed to be. At first, ringing them to signal surrender seemed like something Tyrion had just thought up: he tells Dany to listen for them and then he tells Jaime to have them rung. But then, we have random people calling for the bells to ring, like it's a common signal for surrender. If this were the case though, why would Tyrion need to tell people what they meant? The most likely explanation is that it was supposed to be a recognized signal of surrender, but this was never actually established before in either books or show, so they had to go extra heavy on the foreshadowing.

Also, does anybody know what Meera Reed, Yara Greyjoy, Edmure Tully, Quaithe, Daario Naharis, Illyrio Mopathis, Jaquen H'Ghar, Robert Arryn, The Hill Tribes of the Vale, Kinvara, Salladhor Saan and Ilyn Payne are up to? 

Meera stayed at Greywater watch bc it was awkward for the writers to explain that Howland Reed would be there to tell Jon about his true parentage and it would be embarrassing, in short she and the other Reeds were probably wytes. Yara Greyjoy conquered the Ironislands apparently even though it would be very easy considering all of their soldiers were with Euron at Kingslanding. Edmure Tully is in the Freys dungeon wondering why nobody has come to feed him in months. Quaithe is in Essos. Daario Naharis lost his teleporting device and couldnt make it to Westeros on time. Illyrio Mopathis, he should be in Pentos but I wouldn't be surprised if he shows up in the next episode. Jaquen H'Ghar is in Bravos, he wouldn't have any interest in Westerosi affairs apart from killing Arya. Robert Arryn is in the Vale, Sansa/The north has all of his troops. The Hill Tribes of the vale, I think they would be back in their villages with their numbers significantly depleted. Kinvara is in Essos, it would make sense for the followers of R'hllor to send support for Daenerys but I guess nobody asked them. Salladhor Saan is a pirate motivated purely by money I don't think anyone apart from Cersei would hire him. Sadly the actor that played Illyn Payne died of cancer so they removed that character completely from the show out of respect to his memory.

Edited by darksellsword

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One thing thats funny is seeing people on my FB feed or social media in general defending the season thinking that people are only raging about the Dany turn. 

Shows what a funny bubble we/they respectively exist in. I really cant believe that the masses at large weren't up in arms after the wight plot/beyond the wall from last season which I truly believe is the most jarring and painful to watch episode. I will certainly rewatch some of this season for the character moments and certain scenes but thats truly the one episode I'll alway skip. I guess it took hype crashing and burning to get people disenchanted.

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11 hours ago, LHakaLH said:

The oh so hyped fight between the Clegane brothers came about in the most contrived fashion and it was really hard to get invested in the outcome. Did Sandor ever mention hating his brother before this episode? Certainly not for several seasons.

Those awful BTS explanations touched on the Cleganebowl. It was just an epic event, nothing more. They always wanted to shoot it, it feels just as unnecessary as wanting that undead polar bear...

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12 hours ago, LHakaLH said:

I still have no idea what the point of the bells that gave this episode it's title was supposed to be. At first, ringing them to signal surrender seemed like something Tyrion had just thought up: he tells Dany to listen for them and then he tells Jaime to have them rung. But then, we have random people calling for the bells to ring, like it's a common signal for surrender. If this were the case though, why would Tyrion need to tell people what they meant? The most likely explanation is that it was supposed to be a recognized signal of surrender, but this was never actually established before in either books or show, so they had to go extra heavy on the foreshadowing.

Tyrion was lying to Dany about the bells meaning surrender. Jaime (the "stupidest Lannister") later catches out Tyrion's lie, but it takes him a few seconds. You can see his brain processing it.

Way back in 2.09 "Blackwater" - the last time the city was under attack - Varys says he hates the bells because they always sound for horror - the death of a king, a siege. Tyrion adds "and weddings" and Varys says "exactly," which was funnier at the time because we hadn't had the Red or Purple weddings yet.

Then out in the bay, Davos's son hears the bells and suggests that the city is welcoming Stannis as its new king. Davos says he's "never known the bells to mean surrender", and he calls for the bells to be answered by war drums.

We also hear the bells while Varys is waiting for the crate containing Tyrion to be smuggled onto the ship as they escape King's Landing in 4.10 "The Children." and we have a symbolic use of "bell means horror" in 6.10 "The Winds of Winter" when the Great Sept's bell crashes into the street. The bells show up often enough we can call it deliberate symbolism.

Tyrion is telling a lie to Dany about the bells because he at least wants the people in the city to have fair warning to take cover before she begins her attack (and maybe if Dany buys the lie - which I don't think she does nor did Tyrion think she would - he could stave off the horror almost entirely).

The more interesting question might be - what does this tell us about Dany's state of mind? It's worth rewatching the dialogue portions of the episode while keeping in mind that Tyrion is lying. It changes our perspective of those scenes. It's important that Dany was just talking about mercy before Tyrion brings up the bells; and afterward she gives Tyrion the means to carry out his plan by telling him about Jaime.

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On 5/15/2019 at 6:00 AM, Blackfyres R Legit said:

Initially...I didn't like what happened with Dany in this ep....but after thinking about it, I'm ok with it. Not in having innocent people burned to death mind you, but in terms of character and story. 

It would seem to fall in line with GRRM's penchant for Greyness in human behaviour and dissing fantasy tropes. And if this is indeed the general direction Martin is going with her, then the joke may well be on fandom for falling for the whole female Aragorn/ Return of the King, thing. In other words this could wind up being GRRM going "Surprise...there's no such thing as a benevolent medieval style conqueror!" Every conqueror type King in real-history left monstrous trails death and destruction upon common people, especially the likes of Edward III and Henry V.

Also...in this ep, Dany was acting no different whatsoever from her ancestors, particularly Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys. Again, I'm not saying what she did was right by any means (I too would prefer Dany to have remained a female Aragorn). Only that this could be GRRMs statement about the truth of 'Conquering' Heroes. 

I am not the only person to post a link to this video, but take this one as an extra vote to go and watch:

Foreshadowing is not Character Development https://youtu.be/2mlNyqhnc1M

Like me, and many people who were appalled at how Dany was written this season, it is not because she is not getting some disney ending or heroic sendoff - there were plenty of ways in which it could go tragically wrong or she could end up as a villain to some, or we find characters we like on opposite sides. We could have even got to a Gotterdamerung with logical development.

But the sudden onset of madness and wanton cruelty in a character who has spent seven seasons repeatedly facing incredible psychological ordeals and huge reverses and loss and risen stronger every time to suddenly snap? Completely illogical.

As were the reverses themselves. Euron is so hated as a character because he is so obviously a movable plot device. The lunacy of him being able to not only snipe a a dragon from an ambush, and get multiple shots one week and the very next episode have every single scorpion in Westeros prove little more than kindling. 

Dany's loss of her Dothraki in an idiotic Battle strategy in the north, and the sudden re-emergence of Dothraki in horde like numbers for this episode.

Having Varys worrying about her state of mind after the Tarly BBQ as if this was some horrible shock - when the same Varys crossed a continent to serve a Queen known for her mass executions of masters. 

Or having Jamie not care about the people of KL when he had become the Kingslayer to stop the father burning the city?

There were a number of interesting ways where Dany's combination of zeal, destiny, imperiousness could have set up a conflict between her and the Starks, and her supporters and the established order of Westeros where she could have ended up as the Villian. And if you wanted a Gotterdamerung you could have had Drogon burn down KL after Dany gets assasinated as a result of her coming into direct conflict with the Starks. 

But instead we just got crazyness, supposedly genetically encoded. 

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17 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Yes, because pushing forward to the finish while cutting corners, sabotaging character arcs and dropping plotlines is commendable.

That's like if you are writing a college term paper and push forward to the finish...only for the paper to be wildly off-topic at the end of it. The arguments and the citations made and cited in the beginning of the paper are forgotten.

That's a completely different criticism than of them being lazy, and one I can respect, though I don't agree with.  Is it an A+ term paper?  No, probably a solid B+ or A-, but at least it was turned in.  Meanwhile your roommate is working on what may be the greatest term paper ever written, but has failed the class for failing to turn it in at the deadline :)

But to bring it into specifics, exactly which character arcs do you feel were sabotaged?  Which plot lines critical to the narrative dropped? And are you sure those criticisms are because of poor execution by the writers in the dramatization of the themes and narrative, rather than personal taste as to how you would have resolved them or explored them?  

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6 minutes ago, olibar said:

That's a completely different criticism than of them being lazy, and one I can respect, though I don't agree with.  Is it an A+ term paper?  No, probably a solid B+ or A-, but at least it was turned in.  Meanwhile your roommate is working on what may be the greatest term paper ever written, but has failed the class for failing to turn it in at the deadline :)

But to bring it into specifics, exactly which character arcs do you feel were sabotaged?  Which plot lines critical to the narrative dropped? And are you sure those criticisms are because of poor execution by the writers in the dramatization of the themes and narrative, rather than personal taste as to how you would have resolved them or explored them?  

O_O

What college class did you take that made you think that you can get a B+ for going wildly off-topic and not even addressing the points that YOU, the actual writer, brought up?!

Where was this? I could use another degree.

Frankly, both of you and your roommate could stand to get D's and F's. But your roommate has better leverage and is in a better bargaining position because it is, after all, the greatest term paper ever.

Which characters arcs do I feel was sabotaged?

  • Jaime
  • Cersei
  • Daenerys
  • Jon Snow
  • Tyrion
  • Arya
  • Bran
  • Sam
  • Davos
  • Sansa
  • Littlefinger
  • Varys
  • Melisandre
  • Doran Martell
  • Euron
  • Yara
  • Roose Bolton
  • Stannis

Which plot lines critical to the narrative dropped?

  • Everything with the Night King and the White Walkers
  • The origins, nature and purpose of Daenerys' powers
  • The origins, nature and purpose of Bran's powers
  • Everything with the red god, also known as R'hllor and the Lord of Light
  • Almost everything with Melisandre 
  • Daenerys' poor mental health (apparently it was critical)
  • Jon's parentage and the revelation that Ned Stark is the best game-player of them all
  • how the magic of the shape-shifting powers of the Faceless Men works
  • the purpose of the Golden Company
  • the prophecies of the Prince that Was Promised
  • the prophecies of Cersei
  • the prophecies of the Stallion that Mounts the World
  • how Euron Greyjoy would make Ramsay Bolton look like a child (apparently also critical given how important Ramsay Bolton was)

 

And yes, I am sure that these criticisms are because of the poor execution by the writers in the dramatization of the themes and the narrative.

The story lines move forward and dig deeper as the episodes progress but rarely circle back and almost never pause for reflection. When I asked Benioff and Weiss if it was possible to infer any overall intentionality to the upcoming 10 episodes, they sneered. “Themes are for eighth-grade book reports,” Benioff told me.

http://grantland.com/features/the-return-hbo-game-thrones/

 

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On 5/13/2019 at 4:46 AM, Nightwish said:

True, but still the this circle of potential kings or kings that are going "rotten", "useless", "dangerous" to advance or establish themselves has been the mainly focus and narrative of the story ever since it started. I am disappointed because I expected Dany's arc to be used in another way and not just a repetition of the story already told.

In General: 

For me its very disappointing that the story does not progress in actually developing and maturing the characters. 

Another very good example of this is Jamie. Reading a story of a character who finishes right at the point where he had started. This is frustrating because you don't need a whole show of 8 seasons to reach the conclusions that he is enslaved to Cersei. Or that Targs can go bersek. That's actually one of the first thing we learn about the Mad King. And it feels like cheating us into reading. 

If I knew that this whole story just makes circles around itself, actually presenting the same story with a different king or candidate every single time, I wouldn't read it because the point of story  is exhausted by book 4. 

Excellent example. There's literally zero way to justify their story telling choices with Jaime. When he left, the relationship was severed on point of near murder/fratricide. Jaime then was pardoned more or less by his near murder victim in Bran, pardoned essentially by the people of Winterfell, and then allowed to fight on the front lines in a trusted, key position in the fight against the Night King, a fight that Cersei used to her advantage to murder key figures in the fight (Rhaegal and to a lesser extent Missandei) and to consolidate her power for the final battle. He survived the battle rescuing Brienne and also being rescued and saved himself by both Arya and others. He's a warm and accepted part of the post-victory celebration. 

He then learns that Cersei annihilated and Killed several of his fellow soldiers in the long night through a surprise attack, killed a dragon that nearly died in the battle versus the Night King, and captured and beheaded a defenseless female diplomat. He then decides that nothing else matters other than going to Cersei.

This is the most ludicrous, impossible to believe horse bleep I've ever seen in my life. Literally NO ONE would behave in this way. NO ONE. It was absolutely moronic.

For anyone that thinks its part of the long story, or it connects to this or that, or that there are logical strands to any of this I'll remind you, the show runners explanation of how the Iron Islands Fleet could kill Rhaegal w/the most accurately shot super crossbow bolts launched FROM MOVING NAVAL VESSELS ON THE SEA was because Dany "Forgot" about their earlier surprise attack on Yara's fleet etc. All you need to know about that explanation is that they were either too stupid to remember that issue itself, or didn't care, and thought it was perfectly acceptable to think a roomful of advisors, not just Dany, would neglect to mention the potential of a Euron ambush during said Grand Strategy Meetings at Winterfell before the disaster.

Oh and there's that small issue of somehow Dany failing to notice an entire navy sitting on the water ahead and below ready to attack her while she was flying to Dragonstone.

This is a case of either stupidity or a monumental underestimation of the intelligence of the audience and the ability of any adult to suspend disbelief. 

 

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It seems no one mentioned;

''Any boy whore with a sword could beat three Meryn Trants''

The Hound takes down 4. :agree:

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On 5/15/2019 at 5:45 AM, Imp Beyond the Wall said:

Is Martin not a writer?  I do not absolve him of guilt for this travesty.   It makes since that Sherman burned Atlanta arguably to shorten the war and break the resolve of the rebels. But if Lincoln had sanctioned it after Appomattox, what would it have been then?  Or if Truman had dropped the bomb after MacArthur received the Japanese surrender?  I know war is hell.  I have no illusions about good guys and bad guys,  But there isn't much grey area here.  A conqueror is going to conquer, but this was a wanton act of cruelty by a crazy person. 

So, if you like this, bully for you.  I know a lot of Daeny haters are gleefully and gloating right now.  If this is where Martin has been heading this whole time, he should have kept this ending a secret. 

He hasn't kept it a secret. Neither have the showrunners. People saw what they wanted to see, not what was really there.

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44 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

He hasn't kept it a secret. Neither have the showrunners. People saw what they wanted to see, not what was really there.

I really don't think that People saw what they wanted to - I have not read or heard or seen a single piece of criticism of what happened on "The Bells" that does not acknowledge the duality of her character and take note of her streaks of zealous harshness, vengefulness and capacity for unflinching violence towards those she views as enemies. 

But nowhere in the show or books has she been shown to be psychologically fragile and teetering on the brink of madness in the way her father was. On the contrary she has been repeatedly had almost everything taken from her, experienced betrayal, loss and terrible odds and every time proven herself psychologically strong enough to come back. 

Nor has she ever been shown enjoying cruelty wantonly.

And the all the stuff about being merciful and having an especial concern for the people at the bottom is actually there as well, not a product of fan delusion. She really did lock up her dragons after the death of a shepherd child, she really did free slaves by the hundred thousand. She is the only player in the game besides Varys who has such concerns at all. Tyrion has decency, but he is not consumed with a mission to right the worlds wrongs.

And She really did lose much of her forces just two episodes ago successfully protecting the realm from the White Walkers.

At every point she has used shock and awe it has been with a rational end - burning the Tarly's was a case in point. Randall Tarly was openly spitting defiance, and she had experienced some serious reverses and lost all her Westerosi forces, and did not have the capacity to maintain large groups of prisoners. Literally the entire back story of Dragonstone and the Ser Davos is about how easy it is to starve there.

There was plenty of material there for setting up a final conflict between Stark and Targeryen without having to send Dany Mad - and that really is out of nowhere beyond a sudden onset of a genetic affliction.

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https://ew.com/tv/2019/05/17/george-r-r-martin-fire-and-blood-game-of-thrones-final-season/

 

 

What do you guys think of that article. Personally, I think its expertly showed that all the decisions made this year, with Dany, the conflict over the throne with Jon and his parentage, the reason why Scorpions worked on her other dragons but has yet to work on Drogon, is obviously based around GRRM's own writing and nothing else. The book they use for this is Fire & Blood pt. 1, the Reign and fall of The Targaryens.

 

What about you guys, do you agree, that this article explained the decisions being made this final season and it all being based on Georges knowledge  and writing, or are they reaching to defend this season?

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5 minutes ago, Johan Wehtje said:

I really don't think that People saw what they wanted to - I have not read or heard or seen a single piece of criticism of what happened on "The Bells" that does not acknowledge the duality of her character and take note of her streaks of zealous harshness, vengefulness and capacity for unflinching violence towards those she views as enemies. 

But nowhere in the show or books has she been shown to be psychologically fragile and teetering on the brink of madness in the way her father was. and she had experienced some serious reverses and lost all her Westerosi forces, and did not have the capacity to maintain large groups of prisoners. Literally the entire back story of Dragonstone and the Ser Davos is about how easy it is to starve there.

Dragonstone? Don't you mean Storm's End?

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