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[Spoilers] Episode 805 Discussion

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11 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Dragonstone? Don't you mean Storm's End?

yes - but the point remains that there is plenty of factors - established in the show - to make it clear that - with Euron controlling the seas Dany is not in a position to maintain loads of prisoners.

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In general, as a standalone, episode 5 wasn't bad, but:

A short scene with the girl getting caught trying to poison Daenerys would have helped explaining Varys getting executed. Without that, it felt random as Tyrion and Jon betrayed Daenerys as well.

She could have burned all three of them, or lock them up and burn Winterfell before turning on KL.

I don't get how Tyrion could free Jaime and still lead Daenerys' army, when she threatened to kill him the next time he disappoints them.

The Euron - Jaime fight was pointless IMHO, Jaime would have died with Cersei anyway. And having Euron burned by Drogon would give Daenerys some revenge for Rhaegal.

I would have loved Arya getting killed in KL by friendly dragon fire, burning her to a crisp "no one".

I guess it won't happen, but I hope Daenerys personally executes Tyrion in episode 6. 

And if the leaks are true, Daario should avenge Daenerys and behead Sansa.

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1 hour ago, alienarea said:

A short scene with the girl getting caught trying to poison Daenerys would have helped explaining Varys getting executed.

With the girl also getting executed: even better. 

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Some positives:

- realistic portrayal of a sack, excluding dragonfire obviously

- show's caricature of Euron is dead and his fleet is burned, that's a plus in and of itself

 

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Over at AV Club Micheal Walsh in MailBag of Thrones expresses my frustrations perfectly:

Quote

On a macro scale it makes sense a major character we believed to be ostensibly good failed us in the end. The pursuit of power corrupting people—even those with unselfish reasons for seeking it like Stannis—has been a major theme of the series throughout. Having someone as important as Daenerys also succumb to its dangers is not only meaningful, it’s perfectly Game Of Thrones. All the heroes living up to our expectations, or getting great death scenes and happy endings, would have felt hollow and disappointing.

On a micro scale it was a total failure. Some have argued the show set up her descent into madness for years, but it’s just not true. She was repeatedly given that opportunity and she always stepped back from the edge of insanity. Daenerys was not above torching her enemies, including slave masters and those who betrayed her, but not the innocent and oppressed. That was her whole thing. The show didn’t present this outcome as a real possibility until the middle of season seven when she executed the Tarly boys, and even that was defensible. She gave them a chance to bend the knee and they wouldn’t, so she killed them, and to the rest she granted pardons, the same as Aegon the Conqueror. Why was that so outrageous? Tywin Lannister buried his enemies alive (which is what the “Rains of Castemere” is about) and had them butchered at a wedding. No one ever looked at him and said, “Oh, this guy is going mad!”

Daenerys had what she wanted. Westeros was hers, and she had proven she was an unstoppable force if the Sansas of the world wanted to oppose her. That’s when she decided it was time to do war crimes and betray her guiding principle? I don’t think it made any sense, but at minimum it wasn’t earned. The little work the show put into the possibility it might happen was rushed and underwhelming. 
Of course, I haven’t really answered the question yet: Why did they do that to Dany? Because they’re obsessed with big, shocking moments, and this certainly qualified as one. They cared more about that than whether it made sense for her character. Daenerys, and viewers, deserved a lot better.

 

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16 hours ago, alienarea said:

And if the leaks are true, Daario should avenge Daenerys and behead Sansa.

Uh, Daario should behead Sansa because... when Daario reaches Westeros with his forces, and destroys King's Landing or what's left of it, he... captures Tyrion and tortures him into revealing that it was Sansa who told him that Jon was a Targaryen, and now that he has that knowledge, he seeks out Sansa in the North specifically to punish her for leaking?

Is this before or after he kills Jon for being a Targaryen?

Wow. 

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On 5/17/2019 at 10:32 PM, CrypticWeirwood said:

He hasn't kept it a secret. Neither have the showrunners. People saw what they wanted to see, not what was really there.

Let's see what the impact this reveal has on future book series and the spin-offs to come. 

He may wish he ha kept it secret and sold his books first.   

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Also, is it possible that with the Golden Company defeated forever, the Iron Bank would have received the final nail in the coffin and would fail soon? 

My theory is that when the Iron Bank rep went to Cersei for immediate collection, it was a sign of desperation. Previously (in the show at least), Westerosi lords always went to Braavos to negotiate, not the other way around.

Moreover, in the books, it is mentioned that Dany's liberation of slaves is felt from Westeros to Asshai, so it's fair to say that even though Braavos does not deal in slaves, the disruption of such a big part of the old economy could have resulted in an economic domino effect that ended  with the Iron Bank holding a load of bad debts across multiple sectors. Moreover, the show seems to imply that the bank is corrupt and invests in slavery in secret. 

With the Golden Company (mentioned in the show as the bank's preferred agents for violent debt collection) no longer available, could the Iron Bank be facing an existential crisis? Especially considering that even Kings Landing and its merchants are gone too.

 

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16 hours ago, Br16 said:

Also, is it possible that with the Golden Company defeated forever, the Iron Bank would have received the final nail in the coffin and would fail soon? 

My theory is that when the Iron Bank rep went to Cersei for immediate collection, it was a sign of desperation. Previously (in the show at least), Westerosi lords always went to Braavos to negotiate, not the other way around.

Moreover, in the books, it is mentioned that Dany's liberation of slaves is felt from Westeros to Asshai, so it's fair to say that even though Braavos does not deal in slaves, the disruption of such a big part of the old economy could have resulted in an economic domino effect that ended  with the Iron Bank holding a load of bad debts across multiple sectors. Moreover, the show seems to imply that the bank is corrupt and invests in slavery in secret. 

With the Golden Company (mentioned in the show as the bank's preferred agents for violent debt collection) no longer available, could the Iron Bank be facing an existential crisis? Especially considering that even Kings Landing and its merchants are gone too.

 

An interesting sidelight, a worthwhile speculation about the Iron Bank. Whether you're right or wrong, it's unlikely that a future book or TV series will say. 

To me, it's clear that the business of IB is just another example of poorly thought out story telling by the show runners. The bankers are supposed to be hard headed businessmen, right? What the hell could they have possibly expected to gain from Westeros? How would they have made any money on their investment? Did they think that the Night King would repay them with chunks of ice? If Dany won, she would have less than zero obligation to repay the loan. Even if Cersei won, Westeros would have been a wreck, and winter (Remember winter? I think winter was mentioned a few times in the series.) would just be starting. The only reasonable course for the IB would be to write off their losses in the west (i.e. the money given to Stannis) and do what they could to make money in Esos. 

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32 minutes ago, Parwan Nays said:

An interesting sidelight, a worthwhile speculation about the Iron Bank. Whether you're right or wrong, it's unlikely that a future book or TV series will say. 

To me, it's clear that the business of IB is just another example of poorly thought out story telling by the show runners. The bankers are supposed to be hard headed businessmen, right? What the hell could they have possibly expected to gain from Westeros? How would they have made any money on their investment? Did they think that the Night King would repay them with chunks of ice? If Dany won, she would have less than zero obligation to repay the loan. Even if Cersei won, Westeros would have been a wreck, and winter (Remember winter? I think winter was mentioned a few times in the series.) would just be starting. The only reasonable course for the IB would be to write off their losses in the west (i.e. the money given to Stannis) and do what they could to make money in Esos. 

Thanks for your reply, and I agree with you completely that the IB business acumen is poorly represented in the show, and that the worst winter ever plot has been thrown out the window. Maybe D&D was hoping that the death of Night King would be interpreted by us to mean early spring?

My opinion is that it is a confidence trick the IB are pulling off. They've spun such a big tale about how they could always fund a rival prince that they cannot simply write off losses without looking weak and causing a bank run. They must collect or appear to be collecting or else everyone would call their bluff and not pay them. In the past, the threat of the Golden Company showing up is probably enough, but with them gone, the IB has no one dependable left to enforce its orders.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Parwan Nays said:

An interesting sidelight, a worthwhile speculation about the Iron Bank. Whether you're right or wrong, it's unlikely that a future book or TV series will say. 

To me, it's clear that the business of IB is just another example of poorly thought out story telling by the show runners. The bankers are supposed to be hard headed businessmen, right? What the hell could they have possibly expected to gain from Westeros? How would they have made any money on their investment? Did they think that the Night King would repay them with chunks of ice? If Dany won, she would have less than zero obligation to repay the loan. Even if Cersei won, Westeros would have been a wreck, and winter (Remember winter? I think winter was mentioned a few times in the series.) would just be starting. The only reasonable course for the IB would be to write off their losses in the west (i.e. the money given to Stannis) and do what they could to make money in Esos. 

Not necessarily. I've been saying in other threads that I can see the intention behind D&D's conclusion; it's just that they wrote it so badly. I'd say the final outcome is the ideal situation for the IB. Yes, they have to write off their losses for the hire of the Golden Company as well as to Stannis, but they can look forward with great optimism. Bronn was made Master of Coin because he's been given lordship of The Reach and so has the best agricultural assets in the land, but it's going to take some time to recover productivity and decent taxable returns. In the meantime, the continent requires large-scale infrastructural and construction recovery - going a little further than boats and brothels of course. So Bronn/Tyrion/Bran - and Sansa have little choice but to go cap in hand to the IB, and they, in turn, can be confident that with peace established and winter over (already!), they will get a good return on their investments. And as mentioned, the lucrative slave trade will be restored in Essos, so they're laughing all the way to ...

Edited by House Cambodia

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52 minutes ago, Br16 said:

Maybe D&D was hoping that the death of Night King would be interpreted by us to mean early spring?

the IB has no one dependable left to enforce its orders.

 

The very last shot of the last episode showed Jon riding beyond the Wall - the horse clippity-clopped past a green shoot, illustrating the Dream of Spring after the Winds of Winter. After warnings of 8000 years that "Winter is Coming", it came and went in the space of a bog-standard winter!

Have you forgotten who else dwells in Braavos?!!!

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

The very last shot of the last episode showed Jon riding beyond the Wall - the horse clippity-clopped past a green shoot, illustrating the Dream of Spring after the Winds of Winter. After warnings of 8000 years that "Winter is Coming", it came and went in the space of a bog-standard winter!

Have you forgotten who else dwells in Braavos?!!!

Good point! I just rewatched that scene and saw the green shoot, guess this is what happens when star wars tv show takes away D&D's patience to do justice to 8 years of winter hype.

Also, if you are referring to the Faceless Men, I don't see them as reliable debt collectors. I read that they sometimes set exorbitant fees (i.e. 2/3 of  Waif's dad's wealth) or weird prices like if a Lord wanted the heir of another Lord killed, he would have to pay them with the life of his own heir. So I doubt the IB would want to get too close to the Faceless Men. They want reliable, affordable, no nonsense and business like mercenary companies like GC that will bow to their economic power.

Money is only as powerful as whatever it can buy, and Essos armies (other than Unsullied which IB can't have) seem to be on the weak and small side while the Dothraki are too wild to contract with.

I feel that at this stage, the IB has run out of rival princes to back.

Edited by Br16

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