[Poll] How would you rate episode 805?

[SuperMario]

2 out of 10 for me. It gets an extra point for the effects and cinematography.

But everything else was horrible. How can anyone be nominated for an Emmy this season? There has been practically zero dialogue. Lena Headey has had about 5 lines the entire season. If this is George's idea for bittersweet, God help us all.

[Sand11751]

Just a shame there is no negative million choice.

[Ser Yorick Ampersand]

9 hours ago, of man and wolf said:

why? they were all proven to be exactly who they always were. If you thought Dany or Jaime were moving somewhere else you havent been paying attention,

Sure buddy. It all makes perfect sense. Let's all pretend and it will be fine.

[Greywolf2375]

Not sure how to rate this...big negative for me for valonqar/Jaime/Cersei - the prophecy, the redemption, nah - ignore it all

in a way, a negative for the use of the dragon - if they were this powerful, it would have taken about 5 minutes for Dany to go to KL and nuke the Red Keep and then keep going north - most of the innocents who died would not have and the "real" fight with the Nights King would have still happened.  Or not because she would have been able to go to the wall and then just destroy everything that moved north of it.  so very cool visual of destroying KL, but negative because of the inconsistent writing.

Cleganebowl was cool - glad to see Qyburn get killed by his creation.  While Sandor was focused on Gregor, in a way not sure why he would have let Cersei just walk past him. 

I liked the interaction between Sandor and Arya

Appropriate how Varys got his end - while I would have liked to have seen him keep on paddling, play on the knifes edge long enough and eventually you'll get cut.

Euron v Jaime...not a fan of that; Euron should have been toast from the explosion

And just not a fan at all of how Dany has morphed - there is always a straw that broke the camels back perspective, but this doesn't make sense.  

[Eltharion21]

I gave it 6/10, lot of things were off, but vibe was there. I find odd ending of Jaime and Cersei, Hound vs Mountain I quite enjoyed, Euron was pathetic and Golden Company freaking useless. Though I can't complain on most of the acting, some scenes really felt to drag on and battle felt too much one sided.

This though confirms Danenerys as the one of worst choices for the Iron Throne (possibly even in the books as "Dragons plant no trees." . Hope that someone gets rid of her next week and her familiar too.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Eltharion21

[Ferrum Aeternum]

10 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Her final solution to all her problems is always to burn them all. She sometimes tries the floppy ears on, but it never lasts. In the end it's always fire and blood.  Go back and think about all her "victories". Every single one of them.

This cannot be repeated enough times. Her core is self-centered and vindictive, and has been for very nearly the entire storyline. Add on all the tragedy that befell her in very short order toward the end, and you get this. 

ETA: I gave it a 10/10 because it was an amazing episode of television. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Ferrum Aeternum

[Kajjo]

Wow, I gave this episode a 10/10. So well done. So very many worthwhile scenes. I am suprised people downvote the episode just because their favorite character loses it.

• The Sandor/Arya scene was so perfect. Both arcs had an important turning point. 
• The fire scenes were well done. Visuals are stunning!
• Seeing the enormous suffering through the eyes of the escaping Arya was well done, too. It is difficult to show real suffering and they succeeded. They made the war not any heroic issue, but focused on the suffering of common people. Well done.
• Daenerys lost friends, advisers, dragons, lovers, suffered multiple betrayals and then she snaps. So much foreshadowing for this. So believable and expected. Carried out well, also well-performed by the actress.
• Varys betrayal and death scene short and well done.

In summary, a really great episode. It is unfair to downvote an episode that is well done, just because you don't like the storyline of GRRM.

 

 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Kajjo

[Kajjo]

10 hours ago, PirateVergo said:

It's the best episode so far, they finally dropped the act and showcased Dany's true colors, she's never been right about anything in her life, everything she did from season 1 up to now was filled with madness and arrogance.

True.

Not everyone understood the clues and some fanboys are angry about that.

[Ajax Rules]

I thought this was a great episode. 9/10.

The atmosphere was a dark and depressing. Some unexpected twists, but nothing too unrealistic. The foundation for the mad queeen arc was strong enough in my opinion, it would have worked better for me is she didn't go all in. Killing those soldiers with some colleteral damage (some women, children and ancient buildings) would have been sufficient for Jon to start doubting her.

I thought the Clegane bowl thing was very lame. But my most serious point of criticism was the absence of Lady Stoneheart. I was really expecting the introduction of this character this week. Will be extremely pissed is she's not included next week.

 

 

[Frey family reunion]

9 hours ago, Jarl Halstein said:

There is a reason all countries chose birthright in the Middle Ages and most countries in the many centuries before that. If another system had worked better, it would have been tried here and there and won out in the competition. Instead birthright won. Because there was no media, no communication from village to village even, so the people had no idea of knowing who the better ruler is. So if power can be fought over by people claiming they are the better ruler who the people should follow - it will without fail end in war and blood. Which it did, from time to time. And after that horror, people were more than happy to let the next ruler be decided by birthright instead, and let that become a deeply ingrained rule, to avoid future war.

Not such a bad idea in a time of little education and communication. You have a guy who is taught from childhood how to rule. And he knows that the country better be as prosperous as possible, because his son and his other descendants will take over. He has to make the country work for their sake, if nothing else. And he knows they will write about him in the family's books.

Well, what compelled Dany to invade Westeros and King’s Landing with an army of Unsullied, Dothraki, and dragons was that she believed her birthright was stolen from her.  

And it also follows that being a king or queen via birthright, can end up with a very awful ruler, who can only be deposed by war and blood.

In the books, it’s apparent that Varys has helped raise Young Griff specifically to be a ruler.  And it’s very possible that Young Griff’s “rightful claim to the throne” is very dodgy, perhaps a mummer’s trick to justify putting him on the throne.

Now in the shows, we don’t have a Young Griff and it’s very possible that Jon is also assuming Young Griff’s role.  So instead of Varys raising a claimant and creating a fiction to put him on the throne, Varys just happens to stumble into a better ruler, who he had no hand in creating, who also just happens to have the best claim to the throne.  Not exactly a mummer’s trick anymore.

So basically Varys entire storyline is wasted.  His only plot was ruined in Essos, when Viserys was killed, and he has just happened to jump aboard anyone who has come by with a claim to the throne.  No plotting, no tricks.

[Jarl Halstein]

Just now, Frey family reunion said:

Well, what compelled Dany to invade Westeros and King’s Landing with an army of Unsullied, Dothraki, and dragons was that she believed her birthright was stolen from her.  

And it also follows that being a king or queen via birthright, can end up with a very awful ruler, who can only be deposed by war and blood.

In the books, it’s apparent that Varys has helped raise Young Griff specifically to be a ruler.  And it’s very possible that Young Griff’s “rightful claim to the throne” is very dodgy, perhaps a mummer’s trick to justify putting him on the throne.

Now in the shows, we don’t have a Young Griff and it’s very possible that Jon is also assuming Young Griff’s role.  So instead of Varys raising a claimant and creating a fiction to put him on the throne, Varys just happens to stumble into a better ruler, who he had no hand in creating, who also just happens to have the best claim to the throne.  Not exactly a mummer’s trick anymore.

So basically Varys entire storyline is wasted.  His only plot was ruined in Essos, when Viserys was killed, and he has just happened to jump aboard anyone who has come by with a claim to the throne.  No plotting, no tricks.

Yes, a king who got there by birthright can be a bad ruler. But for one, they never rule alone, as Cersei lectured Joffrey about in the first season: If he'd invade the North because they refuse to pay raised taxes, why would the other Houses follow him? Almost all monarchs had to consider such things.

It's still true as I said that they had no efficient way of choosing leaders in the Middle Ages, without people being able to see or know the candidates, without them even being able to read or knowing what things looked like outside their own valley. So any contest between candidates would be a joke, and it would inevitably end in war.

[Jarl Halstein]

11 hours ago, PirateVergo said:

It's the best episode so far, they finally dropped the act and showcased Dany's true colors, she's never been right about anything in her life, everything she did from season 1 up to now was filled with madness and arrogance.

The worst way they could have ended this show is by having the kind and gentle good ruler Daenerys sits on the throne uncontested

 

Now I hope she'll die and that it'll be by Jon's hand

That's not true. She was never cruel. She protected women from being raped by the Dothraki, even though it put her at risk. She had a great sense of right and wrong in the novels and the show.

She risked her life again by waging war on the slaver cities, an immense task.

The cities in the east offered her ships so she could sail to Westeros, and leave Mereen. She refused, as she wanted to protect the people from being enslaved again. Even though she knew this meant war, and without control of her dragons, and without larger forces, she'd most likely lose.

[BlackLightning]

2 hours ago, Gala said:

Maybe because GRRM has said this himself, no?

Although, I understand that you do not want Dany be bad in the books (I presume, she is your favourite), but in the books she is going this way too. I wasn't even surprised by what she did in this episode. I hope somebody kills Grey Worm too. 

From Dany's behaviour in the episode, I presume Jon won't be in favour anymore. I think that she has already decided what to do with him, Sansa and all of them and she didn't tell Tyrion a thing.

It has nothing to do with Daenerys.

GRRM said that he thinks that the show and the book will have the same ending. Clearly it won't given how D&D had the brilliant item that Arya was fly in from out of nowhere, single-handedly slaying the Night King and destroying his armies. Do you really think that the Others won't do anything to southern Westeros?

[Jarl Halstein]

9 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

There was no way Cersei was going to survive even if she surrendered.

No way. She would have been executed all the same.

Going to Essos, as he said. Yes, it was very unlikely that she'd survive. Or maybe not. She could negotiate either exile, or that she'd be allowed to return to the Lannister lands. These things happened in the Middle Ages. It was unlikely that Dany would allow that, or that Jaime could make Cersei sneak away with him, but Tyrion was right in trying. A small effort, for the chance to save countless people. Soldiers and civilians.

[BlackLightning]

7 hours ago, 420faceless said:

You could say that its textbook mars in aries, leo, scorpio , etc with any degree of conviction. Astrology is just pseudo-psychology with no real proof using limited archetypical principles. May as well discuss people in levels of pokemon attributes.

Mars in taurus actually suggests anger erupting at insecurities ftr. Mars in scorpio would be more apt for what you're saying, as we're discussing a person erupting from a result of external situations that have psychological implications.

But the Mars in Taurus person is longsuffering, willing to just shake it off and continuing being grounded, indulgent and constant.

Mars in Scorpio may work. But Mars in Scorpio is conniving, calculating and self-aware...and they are horrifically passive-aggressive. There's nothing passive-aggressive about Dany or about what Dany does. And I also don't think this has any psychological implications. You can make the argument that massive amounts of grief, rage and distrust (towards Cersei) can send someone into a blind rage that results in something of a temporary insanity. But I don't think anyone can say Daenerys is mentally ill for completely losing her temper and sacking the city.

Mars in Aries or Leo? Mars in Aries would have snapped a long time ago. If Daenerys had a Mars in Aries, she would have impulsively and independently flown to King's Landing in season 7, burnt the Red Keep, flown back to Dragonstone in time for breakfast and then dared Tyrion to say something.

Mars in Leo doesn't like to be angry and doesn't like people to know they are angry.

 

[Frey family reunion]

29 minutes ago, Jarl Halstein said:

Yes, a king who got there by birthright can be a bad ruler. But for one, they never rule alone, as Cersei lectured Joffrey about in the first season: If he'd invade the North because they refuse to pay raised taxes, why would the other Houses follow him? Almost all monarchs had to consider such things.

It's still true as I said that they had no efficient way of choosing leaders in the Middle Ages, without people being able to see or know the candidates, without them even being able to read or knowing what things looked like outside their own valley. So any contest between candidates would be a joke, and it would inevitably end in war.

My point wasn’t really to debate the merits of primogeniture, but instead to highlight that by making Jon the better ruler and giving him the better birthright is just a little too serendipitous in my opinion.   It also renders Varys storyline completely meaningless.  In the show it appears that he is literally just leeching on the Targaryen who happens to have the better claim to the throne by birth right.  It’s literally the opposite message that he conveys at the end of ADWD.

[Zorral]

I gave it a five, all for cinematography and special effects.  But like last week, during long stretches, again it was so dark and muddy one saw nothingjonsnow.

Everything else gets 0.

Who was Varys writing to?  How did Daenerys determine, correctly, he was betraying her? Why were Daenerys and Drogan so bloody effective against Euron and the anti-aircraft last night when they couldn't even see them from the air last week? How come Drogon can just keep blowing nuke-quality / quantity flame without eating anything and taking time to regenerate the gases? Did Jaime take whatever magic potion Arya took in Bravos when stabbed in the gut and dumped into that dirty water she was just fine in a few minutes just so he could just happen to encounter Euron and get stabbed in the gut, so that he could blahbleatblah? What was the point of pointy end Arya running around KL at all, other than their clumsy contrivance to make her the lens through which we saw how madly awful Daenerys and her forces were -- what was the point then of endless scenes of her being tortured for the sake of becoming No One and the most tricksy killer in the world?  Tyrian again the most stupid fellow in Westros, and all he does is free his brother so his brother, the only person who means anything to him can die with the person who was always wanting to kill him?  And Jon ... o ... dear ... Jon -- guess he proved Varys right that 'she' was too strong for him.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Zorral

[Knight ofthe Laughing Tree]

An immediate rating of 1 - and that wasn't difficult.  Changed to a 2 for beautiful cinematography (one particularly awesome shot of Drogon wheeling overhead seen through a marred castle wall as the Cleganes fought) and some of the actors doing well despite having excrement for material to fling at one another in the dialogue.  That's it.  I won't bother going through this point-by -point other than to reiterate what others have noted, that if the trend continues of every episode being shittier than the last in season 8 then the finale/episode 6 is going to be a real humdinger. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Knight ofthe Laughing Tree
typo

[Knight ofthe Laughing Tree]

1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Mars in Leo doesn't like to be angry and doesn't like people to know they are angry.

420faceless called astrology pseudoscience and I have to agree - which is why I'm so embarrassed I know much about it - that said, in my early 20s I did consume quite a bit of (better) writing on the topic and I recommend the psychoanalyst Liz Greene, definitely, on the topic if you're into it at all.  I don't know why - but if you look at it in any serious capacity, you see that it does seem to have relevance.  That said, my husband and I both have Mars in Leo (both in the 9th and both part of Grand Crosses) and what you just wrote here seems to be more of what Greene always called the "cookbook" version which isn't really relevant.  One must consider all the aspects of course Virtually every sign, every house, every planet, every aspect has potential to manifest itself in anger - if the other right ingredients and circumstances are present. 

But, yes, what you originally wrote made me think of the proverbial bull in the china shop - and I may have taken that line from Howard Sasportas - but I think the whole thing was just so, so badly done in the show.  All of Dany's horrific actions have had a calculating logic to them.  I fail to see how completely sacking King's Landing gets her what she really wants beyond an uncomfortable iron chair and tribute - which I suppose will happen because it seems that winter has ended in Kings Landing - and it seems not many people are starving.  I mean, they still have pack animals for one.  There is no serious other competition for the throne at this point in the show - other than the North - which was destroyed, but somehow goes on because... shoddy writing.  Perhaps Dorne (?)  Perhaps the Iron Islands and "Yarra" - yet another retarded female character on the show...  but we don't really know.  And thank God because no one gives a shit about the Iron Islands or Dorne any longer.  We'd just like the pain to end. 

Dany does say, "Fear then" but as one of the first posters on this episode 5 thread pointed out, this Dany is completely different than all previous 70 episodes of her character dev led us to believe.  In fact, she refused to burn King's Landing precisely because she wanted everyone to love her, she wanted to "break the wheel", she wanted to free everyone even though as a (technically) foreign ruler bringing Unsullied and Dothraki over, she wanted to rule.  Power corrupts and it corrupts absolutely- which is why Jon is supposedly the better claimant - he doesn't want the power.   As has been said by Rick Maybury and many others, what's the point of political power if you don't use it on someone - for your good intentions or otherwise?  *Those on the receiving end of those good intentions don't recognize any difference between the outcomes of "good intentions" and the bulls in the china shop most of the time.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Knight ofthe Laughing Tree
Clarification

[Nakraal]

My initial rating was a 7. If I were to rate it now I'd give it a 9 or a 10

1. Danny didn't flip mad from seeing the Red Keep. She was an already a lunatic that was triggered. Her descent to madness started with Jon's revelation in the crypts, followed by his rejection, the loss of Jorah. the North's indifference, the loss of her baby Dragon and soon after Missandei's. It concluded with the betrayal of Varys, her loss of faith in Tyrion's friendship and in the end the realization that there is no love for her in this land. What they needed to add was scattered minor outbursts of hysteria in her day to day life. Outburst against servants looking her in the eye, or the gods because it didn't rain today. But I guess air time is limited.

2. As much as I thought that Jaime ought to end his arc with him killing Cercei, I now understand that he always was a gray character, that he never stopped loving his twin, and that was a very fitting end. Them together.

My nitpick would be this: I'd prefer to see Dragonfire melt stone rather than shutter it. And I hated Cleganeball... its purely a result of hype and fanservice. I never saw hatred in the Hound for his brother. At least not enough to drive him to death.