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[Poll] How would you rate episode 805?

How would you rate episode 805?   

483 members have voted

  1. 1. What's your rating from 1-10, with 10 being the highest/best?

    • 1
      131
    • 2
      37
    • 3
      29
    • 4
      22
    • 5
      42
    • 6
      32
    • 7
      30
    • 8
      53
    • 9
      55
    • 10
      52


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Emilia's acting was superb. Kudos to her. 

Ned Stark was an example of how to do it right. I understand why Ned got killed. He was honorable, and he did what was right  to a fault. He never betrayed his own ideals, and in the end it was his stubborn belief in honor that led him down the path to tragedy. When he got killed it was a shock because usually in stories like this, the good guy survives. But Ned was Ned, and Joffrey was Joffrey, and the story refused to bend their characters to get Ned out of a though situation. I'm not happy Ned died, but his end fulfills his arc.

We know who Daenerys is. She is someone who cares about innocents. It is not all she is, but throughout the whole show it has been portrayed as one of her core beliefs. If she is going to turn on innocents, we either need to understand why she feels she has no choice to act differently, or she has to truly go mad. In either case, we need a better explanation for her betraying her own core than 'her loved ones died in the war' (she had lost loved ones before) or 'she didn't feel appreciated by the wildling man' or 'Jon didn't make out with her' or 'she risks not becoming a queen after all'.  

But I'll happily agree that Dany definitely is not the only character who has been doing weird things because the plot demands it as opposed to behaving in a way that makes sense to their characters. But she is the most egregious example.

Personally, I don't feel I ask for much. I don't feel this is nitpicking. I understand that it must be hard to wrap up a series like this, but - wow - Spartacus was way more fulfilling and made way more sense. "Kill them all!"

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35 minutes ago, Caligula_K3 said:

I hope you enjoy the finale more, and that we all get the books soon so we can see how GRRM handles it!          

Thank you. I'm glad you enjoy it. I do enjoy the show too (dragons!!!) even though the writing is way off at the moment, and I hope others are inspired to create even better shows in the future. :)

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31 minutes ago, Vanadis said:

Thank you. I'm glad you enjoy it. I do enjoy the show too (dragons!!!) even though the writing is way off at the moment, and I hope others are inspired to create even better shows in the future. :)

We can hope! :) And just to be clear, I wasn't referring to your comments on Dany for the nitpickiness comment; that is a fundamental moment in the show, and if it doesn't work for you, then there's definitely something big to discuss. It was more the "why does Tyrion ask Davos if he's still an excellent smuggler?" style of criticism that I was talking about there. 

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6 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

I don't think you can blame HBO when you know the history. GRRM had spurned many offers to adapt his novels until D&D made their pitch TO HIM. They convinced GRRM had they had a good understanding of the books (although you could argue that they just got lucky in guessing who Jon's father was). They did do an excellent job of adapting the books - as GRRM says, they did better than 97% of books-to-TV/movie adaptations.

The problem is that they turned out to lack the necessary talent to continue in-depth character development and logical plot progression without GRRM's source material to go on. Firstly, GRRM fully expected to have finished the last 2 books and never put them in that position, and secondly, how could HBO execs know this would happen 5+ years down the line? Would sacking D&D at that point and bringing in a fresh team of screenwriters have prevented this? Maybe yes but probably no; it would have been a huge and unpopular gamble given that D&D had built up huge public confidence. No, can't blame anyone.

I mostly agree, it would an odd choice for HBO to lean heavily on D&D as the show had become extremely successful commercially almost exactly (inversely ) as it became a lower quality show in terms of the prestige drama it originally was (I don't think the original intent was a spectacle based blockbuster format).  As they switched from adapting material to creating their own material, I wish HBO had insisted they hire stronger writers to make up the gap.  It's hard to imagine D&D would have put up a huge fight over this as they clearly became tired of the show (HBO wanted more, they insisted on these short final seasons).  I mock D&D more than almost anyone, but they got asked to play a hand they didn't agree to.  I just wish they had the awareness to find people who could play it competently and stick to producing which they are excellent at.

 

As for Dany's heel turn.  There is a HUGE difference a well-earned surprise (The Red Wedding or The Sixth Sense) and a rug pull for the sake of shock (how I see this or The Village).  The well earned surprise for this would include more build up (I'm sure the book is headed this way) and be something more sensible.  Dany could blast apart the Red Keep after they surrender.  It would still cause horrid collateral damage, but it would fit more with her building profile of anger followed by excessive violence directed at the source of the anger.  There were much better ways to do this face turn, and I'm hoping Martin will give us one.

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On 5/13/2019 at 4:29 AM, Astromech said:

Visually, it was fantastic (I could actually see this battle.) And, of course, Cleganebowll!!!!!!

I wouldn't even sign to "visually fantastic". 

The whole burning of the city looked so unnatural. Like if the dragon was not only breathing fire but also spitting handgrenades. 

And there was no actual battle they featured. Only 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Vanadis said:

She had taken many knocks in earlier seasons too.
If, as someone suggested, she had flown directly to the Red Keep and laid waste to it only, that would have made sense.
But it didn't make sense for her to burn the city after it surrendered to her.

Or, they could have edited what they had differently, made the beats of her arc more prominent, made the city not surrender and the deaths of her friends and loved ones happen at more critical points, they could have played the betrayal card fully until she truly was alone, and it could all have made more sense that way.

But I think they never wanted her descent into darkness to be plausible or worthy of her character. They just wanted it to come as as big a shock as possible.

I'm all for Dark Dany, but the writing in this episode wasn't worthy of a B-movie.

Her conversation with Jon alone explains why she burned it because she felt she'd only ever be able to rule through fear and that was also forshadowed in episode 4 when she watched his interactions with the Northerners and was clearly disturbed by them.  Of course that reasoning doesn't exactly make sense because it's the thought process of someone mentally unhinged.

Edited by Stonelands

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Just now, Stonelands said:

Her conversation with Jon alone explains why she burned it because she felt she's only ever be able to rule through fear and that was also forshadowed in episode 4 when she watched his interactions with the Northerners and was clearly disturbed by them. 

But they surrendered. Meaning they did fear her. Why then cause more havoc? Why not be satisfied that so far, she did have many followers among the Westerosi. Jon might be an insensitive twit, but he did take her side against Sansa and bring his troops south. Tyrion, for all his bad advice, was still working to give her King's Landing. 

She had what she wanted. Fear. Power. And victory!

But it wasn't enough, because...?

They had to fear her more?

Because ravishing the fleet and the city's defenses wasn't enough to turn their fear to dread?

They certainly don't fear her anymore, because now they're all dead! Except a few main characters who will kill her because plot.

I think it is ComicBookGirl19 on Youtube who points out that it looks more like a case of someone achieving everything they ever wanted, only to discover that it's not really what they wanted after all. 

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1 minute ago, Vanadis said:

But they surrendered. Meaning they did fear her. Why then cause more havoc? Why not be satisfied that so far, she did have many followers among the Westerosi. Jon might be an insensitive twit, but he did take her side against Sansa and bring his troops south. Tyrion, for all his bad advice, was still working to give her King's Landing. 

She had what she wanted. Fear. Power. And victory!

But it wasn't enough, because...?

They had to fear her more?

Because ravishing the fleet and the city's defenses wasn't enough to turn their fear to dread?

They certainly don't fear her anymore, because now they're all dead! Except a few main characters who will kill her because plot.

I think it is ComicBookGirl19 on Youtube who points out that it looks more like a case of someone achieving everything they ever wanted, only to discover that it's not really what they wanted after all. 

Again,  you're applying a logical objection to someone who at this point isn't all there. The bells ringing might seem satisfactory to you but not to her.  I also think that much of the KL populace is still alive as well, I do seem to recall groups of them lying around with horrific burns and I think parts of the city will still be untouched. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Jewel said:

No plot holes? Let's go over them for a second.

- The bells have never meant surrender, they were a sign that a monarch had died (Davos even mentions how the bells never mean surrender in S2)
- Tyrion asking Davos if he's the greatest smuggler alive- he knows this, as Davos has smuggled Tyrion into King's Landing before
- The "Game Revealed" episode mentions how Dany wanted to make it personal- how? She knows Cersei doesn't give a fuck about King's Landing or its people
- Cersei mentioning how the Red Keep has never fallen, yet it has fallen to Tywin Lannister during Robert's Rebellion
- Tyrion turning to Dany about Varys committing treason, and instantly committing treason himself

That's just this episode. There's even more in the entire season. 

We aren't upset that "a character isn't acting in a way we don't want them to", we are upset that there's been NO set up for this. Yes, Dany has been ruthless throughout the show- to people that deserved it, or she felt needed to be brought to justice. She's shown regret when killing someone she wasn't sure was guilty. She has never slaughtered or thought about slaughtering innocent people. Never. Ever. She's fought for innocent people. Hell, in episode 3 she was fighting for innocent people. That suddenly switches in ONE episode? ONE? She locked up her dragons- against the counsel of her advisors, because they killed an innocent child. She stayed in Meereen, against the counsel of her advisors, because she couldn't leave the people. During the entire show we've been made to feel empathy for Dany, to cheer when she burns the people who betray her, and now suddenly we have to be horrified of her? Because she's a Targaryen? No, not a good enough reason. Jon is a Targaryen, should we be horrified of him? Rhaegar was a Targaryen, there have been many good Targaryens, more than there have been mad Targaryens. 

There was no set-up for Dany to become the mad queen. None. If D&D wanted this to be even remotely believable, then they should've taken HBO's offer to increase the budget for more episodes and have her descent into madness shown from the start, but they didn't. Because they don't care about the story.

I don't mind Dany as mad queen, I really don't, and should this arc happen for her in the books then I have full trust in George to handle it well and showcase a slow progression of madness- as was the case with her father, who slowly went mad and planned to burn the city after losing it BECAUSE he went mad.

I don't accept D&D's mad queen, because it doesn't fit the character we've been shown.

Didn't Dany talk about wanting to burn one or two of the slaver cities to the ground in one season?  That would kill a lot of ordinary people. 

Plus, I think what you're maybe missing is that she's not only recently come to the conclusion that she'll never be loved but she now sees someone with a better claim to the throne than her who does seem to be loved.  If someone already has the potential for being mentally unhinged than I personally don't think it'd hard to see how that could prompt some pretty radical changes in behaviour.

I said it to someone earlier but I'd like to clarify again that I don't think the pacing here is perfect, I just disagree that it's nearly as bad as some people are making it out to be.

Edited by Stonelands

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3 minutes ago, Stonelands said:

Again,  you're applying a logical objection to someone who at this point isn't all there. The bells ringing might seem satisfactory to you but not to her.  I also think that much of the KL populace is still alive as well, I do seem to recall groups of them lying around with horrific burns and I think parts of the city will still be untouched. 

Yes, yes, 50% of them survived as they do ;)

I'm only saying that if they are going to make Dany go against one of her most core beliefs, that she is a protector of the innocent, then they need to treat her arc with more care and not rely on a line of dialogue here and there to justify her action from a story point. It needs to be set up, so that we understand beforehand under which circumstances Dany will no longer care about innocents, even if we don't connect the dots before it plays out. We should have seen her slowly breaking more and more of her own principles, justifying every turn, until it was too late. Her burning enemies to death wasn't enough in this setting, because her dragons were her weapon, and in the first episode of season 1 we saw Ned Stark behead a man we knew to be innocent. Power by physical force is how Westeros works. She was no better, and no worse, than other heroes in that regard. But the others died not because they slowly turned evil from wielding power, nor because they went against everything they once believed in, but because they lived up to some ideal. Ned - honesty. Rob - true love. 

Dany broke her core belief at a point in the story when there was no point for her to do so.

It is not an implausible ending, but it is certainly not earned. 

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I love it when the series gives us moments when we question who we root for. I gave this a 7, would've been a solid 8 for me if not for Euron / Jaime scenes. 

I hate that Dany has spiraled into madness, and IMO it has been telegraphed for a while. What I like most about this is that the show didn't hold back. They knew what they were going for and went all in. If we had only seen Dany burning adults and soldiers people could still make excuses to redeem her, but they way this went down that's all gone. She and Grey Worm clearly had talked ahead of time and he knew her plan.

I also liked that it showed the Northern forces being just as immoral, pack mentality, as Danys' armies were. Again, as I mentioned before, this series is about how horrible humans are to each other, that they are the true threat to humanity, not mindless ice zombies. The wights and walkers were a simple misdirection for everyone. Humans are the true threat to humanity.

So, Arya is Assor Assai(spelling)...she arose out of smoke and ashes. Have to assume she is killing Dany for this using someones face, then maybe Jon kills her defending his queen not knowing it and we have our bitter sweet ending?

Hated every scene Jaime was in. The tent with Tyrion was just a repeat of Catelyn Stark scene IMO. Then the preposterous fight with Euron  washing up on shore. I probably should of given the episode a 6 for this alone. I don't mind Jaime and Cersei dying together though. Basically the world crumbling around them. I didn't like Cerseis' scenes while the battle was going on, too much of a call back to Janos Slynt when facing the wildling army...there's no such thing as giants, the door is cold rolled steel....she reminded me of that scene instantly.

I loved the Hound slapping reality into Arya. Showing her that if she keeps on the path she is on she will become him, a hateful vengeful person with no love in her life. I wish they had given them just a little more time and dialogue between them. Between this conversation and what Arya witnessed and went though in the attack I think she will have been reborn a new person. If she survives then the last scene may be her riding up to Storms End and seeing Gendry. (total fan service fan fiction I admit).

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41 minutes ago, dbunting said:

I love it when the series gives us moments when we question who we root for. I gave this a 7, would've been a solid 8 for me if not for Euron / Jaime scenes. 

I hate that Dany has spiraled into madness, and IMO it has been telegraphed for a while. What I like most about this is that the show didn't hold back. They knew what they were going for and went all in. If we had only seen Dany burning adults and soldiers people could still make excuses to redeem her, but they way this went down that's all gone. She and Grey Worm clearly had talked ahead of time and he knew her plan.

I also liked that it showed the Northern forces being just as immoral, pack mentality, as Danys' armies were. Again, as I mentioned before, this series is about how horrible humans are to each other, that they are the true threat to humanity, not mindless ice zombies. The wights and walkers were a simple misdirection for everyone. Humans are the true threat to humanity.

So, Arya is Assor Assai(spelling)...she arose out of smoke and ashes. Have to assume she is killing Dany for this using someones face, then maybe Jon kills her defending his queen not knowing it and we have our bitter sweet ending?

Hated every scene Jaime was in. The tent with Tyrion was just a repeat of Catelyn Stark scene IMO. Then the preposterous fight with Euron  washing up on shore. I probably should of given the episode a 6 for this alone. I don't mind Jaime and Cersei dying together though. Basically the world crumbling around them. I didn't like Cerseis' scenes while the battle was going on, too much of a call back to Janos Slynt when facing the wildling army...there's no such thing as giants, the door is cold rolled steel....she reminded me of that scene instantly.

I loved the Hound slapping reality into Arya. Showing her that if she keeps on the path she is on she will become him, a hateful vengeful person with no love in her life. I wish they had given them just a little more time and dialogue between them. Between this conversation and what Arya witnessed and went though in the attack I think she will have been reborn a new person. If she survives then the last scene may be her riding up to Storms End and seeing Gendry. (total fan service fan fiction I admit).

Lol that ship has sailed a long time ago. I think many people stopped rooting or caring for any of these characters.

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6 minutes ago, Gianna Dorenberg said:

Lol that ship has sailed a long time ago. I think many people stopped rooting or caring for any of these characters.

If no one cared, no one would watch, no one would have huge reactions blowing up this site and twitter. People care, people care deeply.

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2 hours ago, dbunting said:

If no one cared, no one would watch, no one would have huge reactions blowing up this site and twitter. People care, people care deeply.

No, I think people care deeply that they invested years of their lives and 70+ hours of viewing time to get shafted at the end of it. Everyone will now tune into the last episode if only to throw bricks at the TV screen.

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40 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

No, I think people care deeply that they invested years of their lives and 70+ hours of viewing time to get shafted at the end of it. Everyone will now tune into the last episode if only to throw bricks at the TV screen.

I'd invest in insurance if I was you! 

 

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Just now, dbunting said:

I'd invest in insurance if I was you! 

 

Ha, not me. I'm far more cool with how this is going down than 90% of posters here.

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4 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Ha, not me. I'm far more cool with how this is going down than 90% of posters here.

Ah ok, I thought you were disenfranchised! I love the way this is going, would've been to "normal"(?) if Dany had won it and not had the chaos that will follow this.

If next episode we get Azor Ahai but not in the way most people imagined. That Azor Ahai was going to stop the big bad NK, but instead the true darkness is Dany...

 

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2 minutes ago, dbunting said:

Ah ok, I thought you were disenfranchised! I love the way this is going, would've been to "normal"(?) if Dany had won it and not had the chaos that will follow this.

My position is that I am a massive GRRM fan. What I love about him is that he subverts tropes and readers' expectations - he doesn't give us what we think we want. D&D have maintained that attitude for the show but lack GRRM's talent and have delivered the story in a cack-handed way with poor plotlines and character development. So I support what they are trying to do but not the manner in which they are doing it. At the same time, I am very critical of shallow semi-literate fans who can't handle anything more complex than cliched Disney-like goody and baddy characters.

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I'm just going to assume that those who were okay with the execution of the ending and who think that critics wanted a happier outcome or are just fanboys of certain characters, are in denial.

You want a good story, but you need bad writing.

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Please! There is no *right* way to watch a TV show. Poking fun at absurdity is one thing (I'm certainly guilty of it) but outright mocking other groups of fans for their opinions? Mean-spirited. Swearing never to watch a show or a movie again, or buy a book? I feel the rage & pain, but pop culture is a smorgasbord, and we'll find different things to enjoy soon enough.

 Topic: There have been times when, watching this show, I've groaned out loud or yelled at the screen. The Jaime/Euron fight in this ep was groan-worthy. There have been huuuge problems with timing and character development in general, and the dialogue in recent seasons has been godawful or completely missing. But I've still liked many aspects. Cinematically the show has been a feast for the eyes - at least when they kept the lights on. :)I've loved the costumes, jewelry and set dressing. I don't expect anyone to see things the exact same way I do, and it's interesting to me to hear other perspectives from other posters, even if I don't always agree with them.

I have different expectations for the one remaining episode of the show than I do for the remaining novels, but that's a whole 'nother post.

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